Flame annealing to prevent cracks? help a newb!

[badseed1]

So I have a few questions. But let me explain my situtation first. Got my hothead a few weeks ago, just got my glass and a few basic tools yesterday in the mail from sundance glass (which i just read a post that shows sundance to be unfavorable, anyone know why?). So all I have is a graphite marving pad, some needle nose pliers, and instead of vermiculite I went with fiber pads (I dont see anyone ever talking about them, mostly vermiculite, whats the reason for this? Are fiber pads less then satisfactory?) I do NOT have a kiln or plan on affording one any time soon... There you go, thats what i have to work with, that being said here is my main question. Since i dont have mandrels, i've been attempting teardrop pendants, they seem simple enough form the tutorials i've seen. I've attempted about 10 so far, getting a better shape each time, but more cracks! I am perfectly aware of the fact that the glass needs to cool evenly, but not quite sure what I need to do to accomplish that. Half of them come out fine, half come out cracked. Here is the URL of the tut I've been following http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etwzrIMAaMw
I got down the stringer in a few tries. It's not until I make the "loop" and try and remove the punty (sp?) that the bead usually cracks (I can't see it but I can feel it.) Once it happened as soon as I touched the bead with my pliers, after that I started warming the pliers first (Is that a step in the right direction?) Some of them must crack while between the fiber blankets cause I don't always feel it. I wish I had a way to upload a picture. It seems that if I try and slowly cool the finished bead in the flame, the loop melts/warps. Anyone know of a more in depth video tutorial for simple pendants? Or just some helpful info/tips on how I can stop the cracking. And lastly, after I get this down, can anyone tell me of any other bead types I can produce with my limited amount of equipment? Thanks for helping out the newb!

-Ryno (badseed1)

[likes to make glass stuff]

OK, main problem:

That video is using boro, you are using soft glass. Boro is WAY more forgiving of thermal shock than soft glass. You can't do the kind of thing you want to do with boro on a HH. You can melt it. You can make things with it. It will take forever, and you just can't make mushroom pendants with boro on a HH.

Second big problem:

It takes time to learn to make beads that are round or donut shaped that don't thermal crack when you don't have a kiln. It's normal. Pendants are a step or ten harder than round or donut shaped beads. I'm sure it's possible to make them that survive and batch anneal with soft glass...but I wouldn't try it.

Mandrels: local welding shop. 316L rod, I'm pretty sure. Cheap. Less than $10 should get you mandrels. A bunch of mandrels. I'd get 3/32nd to learn on-you're less likely to bend them.

I don't think you're going to be able to do what you want to without a kiln, with soft glass. I'm trying this kind of thing with boro and screwing up my loops left and right, lol. I'm batch annealling them, but with boro it's not such a huge thing when you are learning.

Please make sure you've got adequate eye protection and ventilation, too, ok?

[badseed1]

That video is of a hothead I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong <--- newb) but it says so in the comments, and looks the same as mine. So I'm guessing he is using soft glass if that is the truth. I just (about an hour ago) finally made my first mushroom pendant. PERFECTION! *Bows and waits for applause. No cracks, perfect cap. It's nice, I'm guessing there is probably some stress though, and it may be fragile.

Thanks for the tip on mandrels, didn't want to make another $50 min. purchase just cause I forgot them in the last order.

What is batch annealing? Using a kiln I'm guessing?

As for eye protection, I am just using a dark pair of shades ATM, how bad is that? Ventilation is cool though. I knew it needed to be ventilated, but why is that exactly?

Thanks for the tips LTMGS. I'd still like to know more about flame annealing if anyone can point me in the right direction ;) Even though my last piece turned out perfect (lol, translation: it's not cracked..)

[sosoft]

That video is of a hothead I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong <--- newb) but it says so in the comments, and looks the same as mine. So I'm guessing he is using soft glass if that is the truth. I just (about an hour ago) finally made my first mushroom pendant. PERFECTION! *Bows and waits for applause. No cracks, perfect cap. It's nice, I'm guessing there is probably some stress though, and it may be fragile.

Thanks for the tip on mandrels, didn't want to make another $50 min. purchase just cause I forgot them in the last order.

What is batch annealing? Using a kiln I'm guessing?

As for eye protection, I am just using a dark pair of shades ATM, how bad is that? Ventilation is cool though. I knew it needed to be ventilated, but why is that exactly?

Thanks for the tips LTMGS. I'd still like to know more about flame annealing if anyone can point me in the right direction ;) Even though my last piece turned out perfect (lol, translation: it's not cracked..)

Seed,
What you are attempting is done all the time! Boro is easier to sculpt in the torch because it does not thermal shock as much as soft glass (remember that you can take that pyrex dish from the freezer and heat your food in an oven!)
Sculpting with soft glass has been done much longer than sculpting in boro. The Italians make a huge amount of $$$ or euros making figures from soft glass that are never annealed.
You will have to practice working a figure or object from one end to the other. You can use a soft glass rod to built your piece from. Like when making a small human form, starting with the lower body and then building a torso, head, arms, etc.
The technique involves finishing an area and allowing it to cool as you work on another area.
You can never come back and RE-HEAT the completed area. It will crack, but when you are done the piece does not need to be protected in any way when it cools.
Study books on the subject to learn about heat control when sculpting. It's not that hard if you see it done and then practice. There are a few teachers who can show you as well. I do not know if there are videos on sculpting soft glass, but if you watch boro videos you can get the idea of how to shape. You can then plan your soft glass piece as a continuous process of building without re heating any of the completed sections.
Soft glass sculpting is fairly advanced heat control, but I have watched several students do it who have never even seen a torch!
The important thing is to try, you will learn eventually, even if you crack the first 50 pieces.
Have fun, remember there are no rules in art!
HITK,
Kurt

[Wonker]

Seed,

I don't think that the torch that guy is using is a hothead and it really does look like he's using boro to make that little mushroom. Like the others have said, working in boro is a lot more forgiving in terms of working a piece in and out of the flame without the thermal shock. If you're getting about half of them done using soft glass, you're really doing well, I'd say. The only thing I think that any of us could really say that might help is, if you're working soft glass, don't go very long without putting some heat back into the entire piece. In order to keep the thermal shock from cracking your piece, you're going to have to be ever mindful of the fact that if the piece cools too much you're going to lose it. When you punty up to the bottom, when you go back in to clean up the punty mark, your're going to get a crack if you've spent too long on the loop side without going back in to and heating the punty side . You have to have that internal clock going all of the time..and experience will teach you how to set that egg timer.

Good luck, and welcome to the addiction.

[sosoft]

Generally a soft bushy flame like a hot head can help you to work soft glass. You just need to find out what part of the flame you want, so that your heat will be right for what you are doing. Although I have not seen the boro tut referred to above, I make mushrooms all the time in soft glass, both in marbles and pendents. Depending on the thickness of the piece, re heating may be appropriate. When making small pieces you can use the heat applied, heat denied tech I first shared about.
If you get a mandrel for bead work, than by all means use it without release to hold your work as you are making it ( a punty). All of the soft glass furnace workers use stainless steel for puntys. Put the mandrel into the flame until it glows orange, just the tip (1/8 inch) then press it lightly into whatever soft glass gather you are trying to hold. It will stick very well, in fact if you make a bead without release, the only way you can remove the glass from the mandrel is with a hammer:lol:.
Remember to keep the joint warm now and then, don't sweat it, but flash the glass-steel joint now and then.
For a better description of this process and some of the best ideas on how to work soft glass, I would recommend you buying the book about marble making by Drew Fritts. Just google his name and look at his web site.
The chapters on ventilation and color mixing alone are more than worth the price of $30.
If you learn how to control the heat in the glass, you will be able to make anything you desire:-D
HITK,
Kurt

[BugNerd]

The video is a hothead, looks just like mine, and he says at some point that he is working farther out because he's on propane ONLY and doesn't want to scum the glass.

[Cosmo]

That's a hot head alright. And no way that's borosilicate. You can't get borosilicate that hot on just propane.

[jamie lynne]

that is certainly a hot head. and that is certainly soft glass.

the bigger the better for learning, try 14-15 mm clear and a larger version of the mushroom. i made many on my hothead no problem for 3 years before i got my minor. also after i break off my punty and i'm holding it with my pliers i gently run it back and forth thru the flame again, not enough for it to get red hot again, just evening out the heat a bit. it helps with thermal cracks.
i made large pendants for 3 years on my hot head and cooled in a fiber blanket, didn't kiln anneal, cause i didn't have the $$, and all of them are still alive and well. that being said i never sold any back then, but i did give them away, i don't feel right selling stuff that is not annealed.

the yellow daisy in my profile picture album is made on a hothead, and soft glass. it wasn't annealed for a year. but when i got my kiln i batched it.

[likes to make glass stuff]

That video is of a hothead I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong <--- newb) but it says so in the comments, and looks the same as mine. So I'm guessing he is using soft glass if that is the truth. I just (about an hour ago) finally made my first mushroom pendant. PERFECTION! *Bows and waits for applause. No cracks, perfect cap. It's nice, I'm guessing there is probably some stress though, and it may be fragile.

Thanks for the tip on mandrels, didn't want to make another $50 min. purchase just cause I forgot them in the last order.

What is batch annealing? Using a kiln I'm guessing?

As for eye protection, I am just using a dark pair of shades ATM, how bad is that? Ventilation is cool though. I knew it needed to be ventilated, but why is that exactly?

Thanks for the tips LTMGS. I'd still like to know more about flame annealing if anyone can point me in the right direction ;) Even though my last piece turned out perfect (lol, translation: it's not cracked..)

I'm still disagreeing that he's using a HH and soft glass. If the experienced folks will listen to the video, several times he talks about speeding it up (double time, that kind of thing). Personally, if I get soft glass that hot, it drips. Or boils. The amount of time he's waiting before re-introducing things into the flame, too, would guarantee shattering, I think.

He says he's using black for that stringer, too. You don't use black stringer really often with soft glass, because it's a transparent and turns purple, green, or blue when pulled down.

As for the comments-what I saw said something about it being nice to see a glass video that wasn't making beads on a HH. The comment was by someone else. It could be read as "Yay, someone's doing something different with glass in a video!" just as easily as "he's using a HH and not making beads".

I'm guessing he was using some sort of welding torch, since in later videos, he's got a regular torch. and talks about buying a glass type of torch. There are propane only torches out there.

he also mentions color in a way that boro folks do, not soft glass folks.

That aside, if you've got a HH aimed the way that torch is, you've got it going the wrong way. Aim it AWAY from your face. Very, very important.

Batch annealling- When you make things and save them until they can be annealed in a torch. It's not OK to sell items that haven't been annealed in a kiln, and you cannot anneal in a torch. Period. Annealing is slow cooling, and it's just not possible to do that in a flame adequately. There are folks around who will batch anneal your items for you, either by you mailing them, or by finding someone local to you.

Eye protection. You really need safety glasses at a bare minimum. Read up on the various types of eye protection. Some cuts the flare one sees in with the torch flame, though your sunglasses may do that. I'm betting they don't give full eye protection, though, and having had rods spit bits at me and bounce off my eyebrows when I wasn't wearing full style frames, I'd highly recommend that kind. You can get cheap clear safety glasses for very little at that welding supply shop you are getting your mandrels at. If you intend to do this for any length of time, you've got to read up on appropriate eye protection.

Ventilation: You are burning propane or another fuel to melt the glass. That alone creates by products that shouldn't be trapped in the room with you. You've got to get those fumes (and the fumes from whatever else you are working with) outside, and fresh air into the room you are in.

Check the safety forum for more info on the eye wear and ventilation things-lots of good info there.

And if you're managing those with soft glass, so new to it all, awesome!

[badseed1]

Thanks all, been a big help. :)

[Elizabeth Beads]

I have nothing but good things to say about Sundance. And their mandrels by the lb. are a great deal if you don't want to mess with cutting and deburring your own. You'll need bead release too. Annealing bubbles in a hot crockpot (or empty coffee can on a hot plate) would be better than fiber blanket for cooling and is not very $$$. (I did not watch the video, so no comments on the torch or glass). Good luck!

[Diane (clarus)]

That is definitely a Hot Head in the video. I recognize the torch and the flame.

Sundance is where I got my first kit, when they were still in Mountain View. I have ordered from them since they moved to Paradise and have nothing but good things to say about them.

Much of beadmaking, whether on or off-mandrel, is about heat control. Perhaps you are letting the glass get too cool outside the flame? Soft glass is very senstitive to thermal shock if parts of it aren't within a range and then yes, it will crack. This kind of thing can only be learned by experience.

One tip I learned early on from reading a post from Val Cox is to just spend time melting glass in the flame to see how different glasses melt. Transparents are stiffer than opaques, and even then they vary by color. I'd suggest also getting some books and videos. Many of the books are available at public libraries, and sometimes you can find them in used bookstores or on eBay. Or here in the Garage Sale. The videos can be rented through www.smartflix.com for a nominal fee. Start with the set from Jim Smircich - he is the master of heat control.

As others have said, you will need didymium safety glasses so you don't burn your eyes out from the solar flare in the flame, and have some kind of ventilation that is blowing the fumes away from you. There's a ton of info in the Safety section, and a good website to get info on this specific topic is http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/ .

Most of all, have fun!

-Diane

[jamie lynne]

i don't think it is pointing at him, if it was.... i think he might need a trip to the ER .... i think it looks that way because of where the video cuts it off, and i didn't hear any lingo in that video that isn't used by soft glass users, and yes black does thin out (turn purple) when pulled thin, but that doesn't mean you can't use it as a stringer. here is a pic of my very tired, retired, hothead to show that it is INDEED a hot head he is using. not trying to start a fight but....


http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt16/tangledskyglass/101_1277.jpg

[prairieson]

Seed,
...Boro is easier to sculpt in the torch because it does not thermal shock as much as soft glass (remember that you can take that pyrex dish from the freezer and heat your food in an oven!)...
Kurt

Just a quick note... Pyrex cookware hasn't been boro for quite a few years, it's tempered soft glass.

[Dale M.]

Torch is definitely Hot Head.... Look at the flame "shape"... It has the typical small candles on out side and one large candle in center....

Dale

[badseed1]

the bigger the better for learning, try 14-15 mm clear and a larger version of the mushroom. i made many on my hothead no problem for 3 years before i got my minor.

I have some 15mm rod, it's supposed to be soft glass but it seems like it takes half an hour to get a good gather. I'm putting flame on it the whole time, it doesn't want to drip at all. Is it that my HH isn't hot enough?

[likes to make glass stuff]

I'd say not for that diameter rod.

(I used a HH for several years. 8mm was about my max)

[Lorraine Chandler]

#1. I like Sundance.

#2. It is a HH torch being used in video.

#3. Fiber blankies, vermiculite and erroneously named "annealing bubbles" are only holding mediums until you can get your beads to a kiln to anneal them. In a kiln slowly ramped down through the stress zones for that particular coe of glass is the only way to safely and properly anneal.

If you are going to be a lampworker be prepared to spend lots of money as this hobby is very very expensive.

#4. Even though you make a bead and it does not crack, consider yourself lucky because the stress fractures in that bead are there and probably lots of them. They are just waiting for a little bump or hit. Sometimes you will just find them laying there in the drawer cracked in half...hours, days, weeks, months or years later.

#5. It is totally frowned upon to make beads without annealing with the intention of selling them.

It's fine for now for practicing but do not sell anything that has not been kiln annealed. It is just very bad form. ( not that you are) just saying.....

Several people on this forum ship their beads out for batch annealing for a fee from another lampworker who is willing to anneal for them.

And last but not least you are trying to run before you walk as far the beads you are trying to make. There is nothing wrong with trying to do more difficult beads at first but you will find it ...difficult. It is also a good idea to take a class. There is nothing like watching someone torch in person..You will have so many AHA!!! moments.

#6 The last and most important thing you need to know is that ventilation is a must have especially with a HH which is a terrible fuel burning dragon..Not efficient at all and the fumes are there, kinda like standing and working behind a car exhaust with the engine running...#-o.

All that aside..... Welcome to our world and good luck, be safe, have fun and check out the threads on how to make a mailbox annealer. It's cheaper and easier than you think.

Lorraine

[rg9403]

definitely a HotHead torch. Def. soft glass.

def. not an easy tech for a complete newb to jump into.

[jamie lynne]

yeah, i guess i used my 14-15 for actual dot implosions, for which more surface area is required / desired. but with some patience and practice i'm sure you can drip a 14 mm rod for mushroom pendants, if i can implode with it.... remember it just needs to get soft... he made his gather larger than his rod but it was only soft when he pushed the shroom. :)

be prepared to burn a few in the process. and remember you can put your own spin on these things too! :)

[sosoft]

Just a quick note... Pyrex cookware hasn't been boro for quite a few years, it's tempered soft glass.

Okay, I guess that could be some of the wild scuttlebutt on the internet, but:
Pyrex is a trade name for boro that is produced by Corning. They were one of the first companies in this country to make boro glass and still produce tons of it for use in lab glassware.
Baking dishes with the Pyrex logo are hard glass, period. You can't have a measuring cup that will take boiling water in soft glass of any kind.
Tempering of glass is normally done to glass in the 80's coe range of soft glass. The lower end of the range, but still considered soft glass. Most bottles and window glass are like this. Very stiff as it cools, good for machine forming.
Tempering is actually bad annealing, formed sheet glass (car windows, shower doors , office glass doors and the like) are heated evenly after it is made, but cooled too fast. The schedule is created to set up even tension in the glass so that when it is broken it shatters, like a prince rupert drop. It breaks into thousands of small pieces and falls to the ground like coarse fritt. This is all done so that when a human breaks a thick door pane, or you go thru the car window, you will not be sliced to ribbons by big shards left hanging in the frame. We use it in the film business all the time. When the actor throws the stunt man into the tempered window an effects person sets off a small charge that drives a steel spike into the corner of the window. The window shatters at the same time the stunt man goes through it. In the next cut he is laying on the ground with a special clear silicone glass substitute around him. No one gets hurt!
Tempering is also used in industry for a variety of reasons, but would be useless for cookware, if your tempered glass coffee pot was ever used on a stove the heat would release some of the tension in one area. The difference would break the vessel upon the next heat/cool cycle.
JMHO,
HITK,
Kurt
Ps We also use candy glass, which is made of clear resin. It will break easily on impact, but you can still get cut by the sharp shards. Tempered glass breaking looks better, but is way more expensive and harder to re-set if the shot goes south.

[sosoft]

[QUOTE=2 TOUCANS;2536401][B][COLOR="Olive"]#1. I like Sundance.

#5. It is totally frowned upon to make beads without annealing with the intention of selling them.

Wow,
I have never been totally frowned upon,what's the penalty for that?
Can't we let beginner find out accurate information for themselves, they will have a lot more fun. Art is freedom, being told what to do is not much fun.
Keep it real and hot!
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. I guess the Europeans who have made glass beads for maybe 200 years are not very smart, but if I could make the money they do by selling un annealed glass beads all over the planet, I guess I could live with a few frowns.
Oh, the commercial marble makers would also have to be included in that group. They have probably made the un annealed mistake about a billion times. And they sell to children!

[likes to make glass stuff]

Okay, I guess that could be some of the wild scuttlebutt on the internet, but:
Pyrex is a trade name for boro that is produced by Corning. They were one of the first companies in this country to make boro glass and still produce tons of it for use in lab glassware.
Baking dishes with the Pyrex logo are hard glass, period. You can't have a measuring cup that will take boiling water in soft glass of any kind.
Tempering of glass is normally done to glass in the 80's coe range of soft glass. The lower end of the range, but still considered soft glass. Most bottles and window glass are like this. Very stiff as it cools, good for machine forming.
Tempering is actually bad annealing, formed sheet glass (car windows, shower doors , office glass doors and the like) are heated evenly after it is made, but cooled too fast. The schedule is created to set up even tension in the glass so that when it is broken it shatters, like a prince rupert drop. It breaks into thousands of small pieces and falls to the ground like coarse fritt. This is all done so that when a human breaks a thick door pane, or you go thru the car window, you will not be sliced to ribbons by big shards left hanging in the frame. We use it in the film business all the time. When the actor throws the stunt man into the tempered window an effects person sets off a small charge that drives a steel spike into the corner of the window. The window shatters at the same time the stunt man goes through it. In the next cut he is laying on the ground with a special clear silicone glass substitute around him. No one gets hurt!
Tempering is also used in industry for a variety of reasons, but would be useless for cookware, if your tempered glass coffee pot was ever used on a stove the heat would release some of the tension in one area. The difference would break the vessel upon the next heat/cool cycle.
JMHO,
HITK,
Kurt
Ps We also use candy glass, which is made of clear resin. It will break easily on impact, but you can still get cut by the sharp shards. Tempered glass breaking looks better, but is way more expensive and harder to re-set if the shot goes south.


Kurt-

From the horse's mouth http://www.pyrexware.com/thetruthaboutpyrex/manu.htm

"Glass Material
PYREX® glass products are made using a tempered soda lime glass composite, as is the vast majority of consumer glass bakeware in the North American marketplace. The Cookware Manufacturers Association considers soda lime an appropriate material for glass bakeware."

[BeadMaven]

I agree with Lorraine / Toucans and I think she is right If you are going to sell, the beads should be annealed.

[jamie lynne]

yep they should be annealed, and remember they can be batched if need be, but it is better to throw a hot bead into a hot kiln, or atleast that is what i've been told. LOL

[Lorraine Chandler]

Sosoft...you are new here according to your join date and posts. If you stick around ( and I hope you do ) you will learn that not annealing beads for resale is FROWNED UPON!!!

Lampworkers have stepped into the 21st century and we have ways to know about stress in glass now that prove annealing beads is the right thing to do.

The following paragraph below from you contains inaccurate information on several subjects..

Lorraine


''''quote""" Ps. I guess the Europeans who have made glass beads for maybe 200 years are not very smart, but if I could make the money they do by selling un annealed glass beads all over the planet, I guess I could live with a few frowns.
Oh, the commercial marble makers would also have to be included in that group. They have probably made the un annealed mistake about a billion times. And they sell to children!end """"quote"""

[NMLinda]

Don't know where you get your information about Europeans not annealing their glass beads, Kurt. Also, not annealing beads, as Lorraine says, frowned upon because it is rude and unethical to customers. It increases the likelihood that something they paid their hard-earned money to buy will break during the time they own the piece. There's no reason to abuse customers in the name of so-called artistic freedom. It's so easy - and so ethical - to anneal beads so that customers can enjoy the purchase of an item that should stay stable virtually forever, that it begs the question why any honest person wouldn't anneal as a matter of course.

badseed1 - Mike's blog has a lot of excellent info, how to build adequate ventilation being one of them. Of all of your investments, ventilation and eyewear are the two areas you must never skimp on if you want to enjoy this additiction in long and good health. You only have one set of lungs and one set of eyes, so please cherish them. Mike's blog has great info on eyewear, also. There is further great info in the safety threads on this and similar forums. Finally, please read the safety section in James Kervin's book "More than you ever wanted to know about glass beadmaking" and in Bandhu Scott Dunham's book "Contemporary Lampworking". These are some of the best compendiums of lampworking safety I've seen out there in book form, and are excellent books, in general.

Lorraine is right about the hazards of the combustion products produced by any torch. Although not as toxic, you no more want to breath them than the exhaust of your car. There have been some chilling threads posted by folks who were not careful about critical safety items such as ventilation and suffered terribly as a result. One young man actually expired because he didn't take it seriously enough. By no means do I want to scare you off - safe ventilation is relatively straightforward to set up, as you'll see in Mike's blog and in some of the better posts here on LE and other forums. The danger is in doing nothing at all, or doing more toxic things like fuming without the right infrastructure.

The reason you need eyewear especially designed for hot glass is because any object heated to the temperatures used to melt glass will give off a black-body radiation signature in addition to the sodium flare most predominantly seen in the visible range. As part of the black body radiation phenomenon of hot items like melting glass, UV and IR is released at energy levels that can cause long term/cumulative eye damage, such as cataracts (please see James' book for a more comprehensive description). You need glasses, first, to protect yourself against flying glass bits (heat your glass too fast and it will pop....). Secondly, while plain safety glasses will attenuate most of the UV produced, ONLY eyewear specifically designed to filter out Infra Red will protect you from those harmful rays. Many folks either forget or are unaware that IR is as bad or worse than UV. Didymiums or better are necessary to protect your eyes from these harmful rays. Finally, some of the heavily silvered glasses can also produce light in the visible range sufficiently bright enough to be of concern. There have been some NIOSH reports published on visible light hazards as well as the hazards of both UV and IR.

Welcome to the obsession! It's engrossing, but not a casual or inexpensive addiction. Torch happily, but most of all, do your research and torch safe!

Linda

[sosoft]

Kurt-

From the horse's mouth http://www.pyrexware.com/thetruthaboutpyrex/manu.htm

"Glass Material
PYREX® glass products are made using a tempered soda lime glass composite, as is the vast majority of consumer glass bakeware in the North American marketplace. The Cookware Manufacturers Association considers soda lime an appropriate material for glass bakeware."

Well, I have to apologize. I did not know that Corning sold the Pyrex name to World Kitchens in 1998.

"Pyrex is a brand name for glassware, introduced by Corning Incorporated in 1915. Originally, Pyrex was made from thermal shock resistant borosilicate glass. In 1998, Corning sold its consumer products division which subsequently adopted the name World Kitchen. Pyrex kitchen glassware, that is manufactured and licensed for sale in the United States, is now made of tempered soda lime glass at the World Kitchen facility in Charleroi, Pennsylvania[1], except in the European Union, where it is still made of borosilicate glass in France.[2] Pyrex laboratory glassware is also still made of borosilicate glass.[3]"

Pyrex meant Boro for 83 years and the name Pyrex in cookware has only meant soda lime glass for the last 11 years.
All of the Pyrex cookware I own is made of boro. It lasts a long time.
The choice of the word tempering for annealing is not really correct. Tempering is done after forming, but is not the same as annealing. It serves a different purpose. I suggest the information about present day Pyrex cookware was just ad copy meant to convey the durability of the line.
I agree that proper annealing of thick soda lime glass will produce a very shock resistant piece, but annealed lead crystal will withstand a ton of thermal shock. Put it into a dishwasher and it will actually start to melt away.
The point is that COE, compatibility and thermal shock in glass are very subjective. I am sure that you know of glass pieces made hundreds of years ago, never annealed, yet still stand as a testament to this mystery of glass.
Sorry for the wrong information,
HITK,
Kurt

[sosoft]

Don't know where you get your information about Europeans not annealing their glass beads, Kurt. Also, not annealing beads, as Lorraine says, frowned upon because it is rude and unethical to customers. It increases the likelihood that something they paid their hard-earned money to buy will break during the time they own the piece. There's no reason to abuse customers in the name of so-called artistic freedom. It's so easy - and so ethical - to anneal beads so that customers can enjoy the purchase of an item that should stay stable virtually forever, that it begs the question why any honest person wouldn't anneal as a matter of course.

badseed1 - Mike's blog has a lot of excellent info, how to build adequate ventilation being one of them. Of all of your investments, ventilation and eyewear are the two areas you must never skimp on if you want to enjoy this additiction in long and good health. You only have one set of lungs and one set of eyes, so please cherish them. Mike's blog has great info on eyewear, also. There is further great info in the safety threads on this and similar forums. Finally, please read the safety section in James Kervin's book "More than you ever wanted to know about glass beadmaking" and in Bandhu Scott Dunham's book "Contemporary Lampworking". These are some of the best compendiums of lampworking safety I've seen out there in book form, and are excellent books, in general.

Lorraine is right about the hazards of the combustion products produced by any torch. Although not as toxic, you no more want to breath them than the exhaust of your car. There have been some chilling threads posted by folks who were not careful about critical safety items such as ventilation and suffered terribly as a result. One young man actually expired because he didn't take it seriously enough. By no means do I want to scare you off - safe ventilation is relatively straightforward to set up, as you'll see in Mike's blog and in some of the better posts here on LE and other forums. The danger is in doing nothing at all, or doing more toxic things like fuming without the right infrastructure.

The reason you need eyewear especially designed for hot glass is because any object heated to the temperatures used to melt glass will give off a black-body radiation signature in addition to the sodium flare most predominantly seen in the visible range. As part of the black body radiation phenomenon of hot items like melting glass, UV and IR is released at energy levels that can cause long term/cumulative eye damage, such as cataracts (please see James' book for a more comprehensive description). You need glasses, first, to protect yourself against flying glass bits (heat your glass too fast and it will pop....). Secondly, while plain safety glasses will attenuate most of the UV produced, ONLY eyewear specifically designed to filter out Infra Red will protect you from those harmful rays. Many folks either forget or are unaware that IR is as bad or worse than UV. Didymiums or better are necessary to protect your eyes from these harmful rays. Finally, some of the heavily silvered glasses can also produce light in the visible range sufficiently bright enough to be of concern. There have been some NIOSH reports published on visible light hazards as well as the hazards of both UV and IR.

Welcome to the obsession! It's engrossing, but not a casual or inexpensive addiction. Torch happily, but most of all, do your research and torch safe!

Linda

If you had ever been to a Glass factory in Europe then you might have seen with your own eyes, beads being made with out any kiln annealing. I personally know that almost all the the china lampwork (the little decorated beads with the release still in the hole) are not annealed. It's costs too much and in an object that small annealing is entirely unnecessary.
How are you able to dismiss the marble making companies? There are marbles made up to 1' in diameter, no annealing, they last forever. I do not think I have ever read or heard of an exploding marble hurting anyone.
To try to teach without through knowledge of the subject matter does not help the student, only confuses her/him.
There are a group of folks on the internet who will chastise anyone who even thinks of talking about compatibility and annealing issues when none of us really understand what is happening all the time.
I will continue to challenge any information that my personal experience does not back up.
Glass is amazing and we know only a little. Have your own experience, enjoy yourself.
HITK,
Kurt

[sosoft]

[QUOTE=2 TOUCANS;2536765]Sosoft...you are new here according to your join date and posts. If you stick around ( and I hope you do ) you will learn that not annealing beads for resale is FROWNED UPON!!!

Lampworkers have stepped into the 21st century and we have ways to know about stress in glass now that prove annealing beads is the right thing to do.

The following paragraph below from you contains inaccurate information on several subjects..

Lorraine

Well, thanks for the compliment. I always want to be able to learn and change my experience with glass.
Being new around here has certainly opened my eyes to the very narrow mined views the the internet has about glass.
I guess it's about trying to sell stuff, that is good, but giving information without knowledge of the subject matter is confusing to this newcomer.
I will strive to delete the word beginner from all future posts.
I see that you must be qualified in some manner to post on this board and I for one, do not know much about glass.
Just my experience. No other agenda.
Also in the future could you please help this newcomer, by giving reasons why information is wrong, not just condemning information wholesale. It will help us all to learn.
Thanks,
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. I am really not that important, I don't deserve a capitalized 'FROWNED UPON" I don"t take my self that seriously:)

[AKDesigns]

:lol: So entertaining!

[NMLinda]

If you had ever been to a Glass factory in Europe then you might have seen with your own eyes, beads being made with out any kiln annealing. I personally know that almost all the the china lampwork (the little decorated beads with the release still in the hole) are not annealed. It's costs too much and in an object that small annealing is entirely unnecessary.
How are you able to dismiss the marble making companies? There are marbles made up to 1' in diameter, no annealing, they last forever. I do not think I have ever read or heard of an exploding marble hurting anyone.
To try to teach without through knowledge of the subject matter does not help the student, only confuses her/him.
There are a group of folks on the internet who will chastise anyone who even thinks of talking about compatibility and annealing issues when none of us really understand what is happening all the time.
I will continue to challenge any information that my personal experience does not back up.
Glass is amazing and we know only a little. Have your own experience, enjoy yourself.
HITK,
Kurt

I think many folks would consider the non-annealed beads mass manufactured in China to be inferior in quality.

If some Europeans are not currently annealing their beads, I put them in the same category as the mass-manufactured Chinese products and consider it just as questionable. That said, please also note that many other European, US, Canadian, Japanese, Australian, Mid-Eastern and other international lampworking artisans who participate in this community often sell to the higher-end, hand-crafted market in which higher quality is expected in return for the higher prices paid. You can see that trend for yourself by perusing the trend of items posted and topics discussed over time on LE and other related forums.

You may not have heard of a marble 'exploding', for example, but that doesn't mean there haven't been issues over the years of which you are unaware (and by the way, are you inferring that all marble companies don't anneal? If so, please cite your sources). If you took a little time to do some research, you can find all kinds of posts over the years in this and/or related forums covering a host of compatibility and annealing problems relating to various hot glass projects, related customer complaints, if pertinent, and successful resolution steps. Many glassworkers have been quite generous in posting their experiences.

You may know only a little bit about glassworking (your posted information indicates a relatively short tenure) and not "really understand what is happening all the time", but be aware that not everyone is so limited in their knowledge. The available published historical and scientific knowledge on glass, glass beads, glassblowing, etc is not insubstantial, and is interesting in its own right. While visiting one glassworking shop is certainly a data point, I don't think it qualifies you as an expert in this field and puts you at risk of confusing your students with partial, skewed and incomplete information.

You have erroneous statements peppered through your posts to our new friend (such as COE, compatibility and thermal shock being subjective...these have analytic bases derived from the fields of chemistry and molecular physics by the way), and have been rightly challenged, and not just by me. I think you are well intended, but mis-informed.

I would encourage our new friend Ryno to read broadly and from as many sources as possible. This forum, Art Glass Answers, Mike's ventilation thread as was recommended earlier, Wet Canvas, ISGB, The Melting Pot, books that cover more than just particular lampworking techniques, etc will all help our new friend get a good grounding and a great sense of this wonderful avocation.

Linda

[Lorraine Chandler]

Thank-you Linda:waving:

[jamie lynne]

how does this happen..... why does a simple question with a simple answer turn into this... seems to be happening a lot lately.

[Sylvie D.]

Annealing or not is a personal choice.
But the physics and chemistry of glass aren’t.
Annealed beads are be more durable and strong. This has nothing to do with being frowned upon (even if it is true).
I’m a european beadmaker and I wouldn’t sell to a customer a bead that hasn’t been annealed.
If you want to see the stress in the glass for yourself, just make 2 medium size beads in clear glass. Anneal just one. Look at both of them with a polariscope and see the difference for yourself. The lines you’ll see in the unannealed bead show tensions in the bead. One day those tensions will make the bead break. It could take years though.

Buying a kiln is definetely an investment. So batch annealing might be a good way to start if you’re planning on selling your work.
The other reason for annealing is to free yourself from certain limitations : if you want to make large or complex beads, annealing will be your only choice if you want that bead to survive. By complex I mean adding other material to your bead like metals (silver, copper, etc.), dichro and using different brands of glass.

If you want to read more on the subject you might want to check :
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75303
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74596

[NMLinda]

There have been some mis-information that pops up from time to time that, in some cases, can hurt someone. What I admire about many LE'rs here is that they care enough to speak up in the spirit of helping others be safe, as well as trying to share insights that can also save aggravation (like cracked beads). Several folks posting here for Ryno are great examples of that.

But, your point is well taken, Jamie Lynn, we should go back to Ryno's questions.

Ryno - In looking back over some of your questions, especially about the frustrations of having things crack on you as you work, it occurred to me that you might find the background info published in fusing books on the behavior of glass over temperature to be insightful. A couple of example books are "The fused glass handbook" by Gil Reynolds and "Glass fusing, Book 1" by Boyce Lundstrom and Daniel Schwoerer. Some of the beadmaking books also have some of this information, too. I think you'll find that understanding basic properties of glass over slow and fast cooling will help you connect what you're doing at the torch with how successful you are (or aren't) at making an intact bead or pendant. Diane/Clarus, Jamie Lynn and others posted some great suggestions for you on how to use that understanding in a practical sense at the torch.

Linda

[Hayley]

Thank you, Sylvie, for the links. I took the liberty of bringing Pam's post into this thread:

There is no glass that does not require annealing. Glass by its very nature expands and contracts as it heats and cools. Over the hundreds of years as the making of glass has gotten more sophisticated, the need for annealing has become even greater. Those beads made thousands of years ago were annealed, but they didn't use an electric kiln. They annealed by placing the beads on the top of the furnace that melted the glass or into a special vault attached to the furnace. Some cultures buried their beads in sand. These beads were not made using glass formulas of today. These beads were very simple beads with little manipulation of the glass as the bead was formed. Every time we add dots or frit or make flowers or case, whatever, the need for annealing is made even more necessary.

I have found, over the years, that those who preach the loudest that a kiln is not necessary are 1) those that do not have a kiln themselves or 2) those that feel if they tell a student about the necessity of annealing the student will walk away without buying the other equipment. Knowledgeable people know that glass of any coe needs to be put through an annealing process.

What will happen if you don't anneal? Exactly what everyone has said. I had a container filled with beads that I starting making in the late Seventies, before having a kiln. Every year I would open the container on New Year's Day to look at the beads to measure the progress I had made in beadmaking, and remove the broken beads. It finally evolved into opening the container to see how many beads were left unbroken. Each year I removed broken beads and finally after about 12 years, there were no beads left. Most of the beads broke early on, the first 5 years, but there were a few hangers-on that managed to last a decade, but not a thousand years for sure.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1534743&postcount=21

[pam]

There is a massive amount of info out there, in books, videos, internet, and most of it is good info - some of it is bad. Those that would even hint at not annealing beads have not made an effort to understand the materials with which we are working, nor the way in which it is being worked. Not annealing it not just frowned upon, it is a necessity. Every one of the Italian masters that has demonstrated at the Gathering has annealed their pieces. American masters who use certain methods of working glass whereby the glass is cooled as they work also anneal their work. No one who has knowledge of glass beadmaking would recommend not annealing your beads. It happened years ago, but over the past 20 years there has been a vast amount of knowledge gained in this art form, and published, and to ignore that is just asking for disaster.

Wow, Hayley, where do you find these things. I don't even recall writing this!

[Hayley]

Hi Pam! Thank you for coming into this thread. I was going to pm you to let you know that I re-posted your post! I can't take credit for finding it . . . Sylvie gave us the link! ;-)

[jamie lynne]

ohhh... and i have some advise for the loop... the person in the video folded the rod over and attached it, which works, but here is how i do it... i detach and then form / fold the loop with pliers, the dents that they make can be "puffed" back out with a little heat. and you get a better visual of where your loop is going so it doesn't go wonky on ya! LOL. and if the loop starts to close on ya you can use a pick to open it back up.

[pam]

I've been keeping up with this thread, but felt it was being handled very well by everyone else and I wasn't needed. However, Kurt always seems to drop in with some sort of debatable information, wherever he gets it, and so I was honestly going to respond when I saw you had posted.

[Lorraine Chandler]

Hi Jamie Lynn, well for what its worth I will try to answer your questions.

I see that you are kinda new to the forum. ( that doesn't mean you are less than anyone else here in any way) it means that most of us old timers are more used to the ins and outs and workings of LEr's. It means we get to know our members and pretty much know what they will say before they say it..\\:D/

So your question of "how does this happen?" is because LE'rs are sleuths, and scientists, and homemakers, and nurses and people from all walks of life. We get to the bottom of the whys and wherefores by being in this gigantic "think Tank" together and it works.

By batting answers and opinions around we all can come to conclusions...sometimes different. This is part of what LE is all about.

As for the simple part I personally do not think that exists with lampworking because there are so many variables involved with even the basics: like setting up a place to torch, ventilation, replacement air, eye protection, lung protection etc. There are no simple answers...even annealing is not simple, just that we all know we need the above things to torch properly and safely.

Making glass beads is not regulated. We are all free to pick and choose our own way of doing it, but there are hard scientific proven facts and annealing is one one them, ventilation is another, eye protection is another one and there are lots more...

We try to make sure that we keep this artform safe as long as we can so that it will not get regulated. When we see/ read/ hear of people coming on board with unsubstantiated claims that we know could cause grief somewhere at sometime we are quick to point this out for several reasons.

Right now we have a lot of freedom in this country with our glass art, but that could all change if there begin to be reports of accidents or deaths or blow-ups, or someone torching an an APT. building and several people are injured etc. 8-[

That is one ( just one of many) reasons why the safety gurus are constantly after us to be careful, do it right, do it legally. Plus no one wants to see loss of limb, eyes, or life. This artform can be very dangerous in the wrong hands and without proper knowledge. I along with others I'am sure, have it in the back of our minds that it wouldn't take much for regulation to slam down on us and take away our freedoms that we enjoy now.

But I guess this is a whole nother' can of worms.....
Lorraine

[jamie lynne]

Lorraine, thanks for taking the time to write... i guess i was refering more to the derailment of the thread... that was caused by some misinformation, and people who were more informed chimming in with their knowledge. which is fine, please don't take it the wrong way, but the original question gets lost sometimes in the turmoil of who is right and wrongabout a question that wan't even asked.... i just wanted to help him figure some stuff out, then it turned into weather or not pyrex is still boro or not, etc..... lol.

[Kalera]

Just a quick note... Pyrex cookware hasn't been boro for quite a few years, it's tempered soft glass.

Yes... and it explodes. Don't buy it!

[AKDesigns]

This isn't the first time (and I'm sure it won't be the last either) Kurt has come into a thread and given poor advice or misinformation. In another thread he actually told someone the using a reduction flame to work a specific glass was "using the wrong flame chemistry". The glass the OP was asking how to work....was a reduction glass. Since when is working a reduction glass in a reduction flame using the "incorrect flame chemistry"? His posts just make me shake my head.

[Kalera]

If you had ever been to a Glass factory in Europe then you might have seen with your own eyes, beads being made with out any kiln annealing. I personally know that almost all the the china lampwork (the little decorated beads with the release still in the hole) are not annealed. It's costs too much and in an object that small annealing is entirely unnecessary.
How are you able to dismiss the marble making companies? There are marbles made up to 1' in diameter, no annealing, they last forever. I do not think I have ever read or heard of an exploding marble hurting anyone.
To try to teach without through knowledge of the subject matter does not help the student, only confuses her/him.
There are a group of folks on the internet who will chastise anyone who even thinks of talking about compatibility and annealing issues when none of us really understand what is happening all the time.
I will continue to challenge any information that my personal experience does not back up.
Glass is amazing and we know only a little. Have your own experience, enjoy yourself.
HITK,
Kurt

Beads that aren't annealed tend to crack. Commercially made marbles were and are typically annealed. I don't think the Chinese ones always are, though, or they're not annealed properly, because I've had a number of them split in half.

I've had un-annealed beads of my own crack after 10 years. I eventually batch annealed my remaining old beads and they stopped cracking.

According to Lucio Bubbaco, who I asked in person, he anneals EVERYTHING and so does pretty much everyone in Italy.There was a rumor for a long time that he didn't, but it was a misunderstanding based on the fact that he batch anneals. When he gives away his demo work, he recommends that the recipient take it home and anneal it so it doesn't break down the road.

[Mitosis Glass]

Yes... and it explodes. Don't buy it!

I didn't know this! Thank you for posting this.

[Lorraine Chandler]

Awww Jamie, you're welcome sweetheart.:grin: I'am old enough I can call you that..LOL

I hear you about the derailments..another LE regular occurrence.

I feel bad too because the original poster has not been back..I think he was skeered off.](*,)

Ryno, if you ever return to this thread... my deepest apologizes...:hide:

Lorraine

[Mitosis Glass]

I spent a whack on money on vintage glass beads from Japan and Europe, from the 50's to the 70's, and I'm finding them broken without any good reason. I opened a little drawer with some beads in them and some were broken right in half. I can only assume they aren't annealed. I'll have to batch anneal them all when I get a kiln. :D

I would never sell anything not annealed, nor would I knowingly buy any glass beads that are not annealed. I don't need them shattering on me (or on the person wearing them) down the road. That would speak volumes of my practice as a lampworker and would reflect badly on the glass community on the whole. Customers wouldn't know which glass to trust and which not.

[Hayley]

Unfortunately it's not that easy to batch anneal purchased glass beads for you don't know the COE of the glass used thus not being able to select a proper annealing schedule. One would assume that the ones you got from Japan were made with Satake or Kinari . . . when in doubt, do a test run with one bead first!

[sosoft]

This isn't the first time (and I'm sure it won't be the last either) Kurt has come into a thread and given poor advice or misinformation. In another thread he actually told someone the using a reduction flame to work a specific glass was "using the wrong flame chemistry". The glass the OP was asking how to work....was a reduction glass. Since when is working a reduction glass in a reduction flame using the "incorrect flame chemistry"? His posts just make me shake my head.
AK, did you read the entire thread about having a bushy flame? My comment was about heat in the flame, not if it was reducing or oxidizing.
Well, as usual there are many opinions on this board, some valid , some not. I choose to just share MY experience, based on the knowledge I have. I certainly accept that others have different opinions, but it seems that the majority of the posters in this thread once again want to kill the messenger.
It really doesn't bother me at all. Any of us can produce whatever glass beads, marbles or whatever we want to. We can do it in hard or soft glass. Just because many of you do not agree with me does not make my information invalid, because it is just my experience.
Do with it what you will, accept any of it, or reject all of it.
In the whole world of lamp working, art glass bead makers that sell their work to the public are no more than 1% of the total. Glass is torched worked in many other fields, glass marbles just for the chemical and ink grinding business dwarf the total amount of glass imported into the US for bead making. I do a lot of research, both on the internet and in my studio. COE and compatibility issues as they pertain to lamp worked beads are not even a blip on the commercial glass industry.
In closing, I have seen marbles made commercially, I have seen beads made commercially, I have seen figures made in glass, and I have made all of them in the shop. All of these in hard and soft glass, none were ever annealed as most of you describe. There was controlled cooling to prevent THERMAL SHOCK, but stress in the glass was never an issue.
The issues of annealing beads to prevent future cracking is just an idea that a lot of lamp workers subscribe to.
In fact, bead makers are the smallest part of the entire soft glass community.
Have fun,
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. I also shake my head, and actually laugh out loud at most of the drama on LE. There will never be any amount of crap that any person or persons on an internet board can throw at me that will stop me from sharing my own glass experience.

[pam]

Lorraine, thanks for taking the time to write... i guess i was refering more to the derailment of the thread... that was caused by some misinformation, and people who were more informed chimming in with their knowledge. which is fine, please don't take it the wrong way, but the original question gets lost sometimes in the turmoil of who is right and wrongabout a question that wan't even asked.... i just wanted to help him figure some stuff out, then it turned into weather or not pyrex is still boro or not, etc..... lol.

Hi Jamie Lynne, Lorraine is right, derailment is a fact of life here on LE and on almost all forums. Sometimes the derailments are funny and sometimes they are serious, like this one. Whenever anyone comes to a thread and provides bad information, then it is really important that the correct info be posted immediately so that someone coming upon the thread at another time doesn't only see the bad information. Glass beadmakers have educated themselves over the years as to the importance of annealing. When un-annealed beads are sold and they break, then it becomes a reflection on all glass beadmakers, so it's a very important issue that people understand the concept of annealing and how to do it.

BTW, I'm not quite sure why whether Pyrex is boro or tempered soft glass became such an important issue, but again, good information is never a bad thing. I would have sworn it was boro!!

[Mitosis Glass]

Hayley, I hadn't thought of that! Thank you for the heads-up. (I'm still new :D )

[sosoft]

Beads that aren't annealed tend to crack. Commercially made marbles were and are typically annealed. I don't think the Chinese ones always are, though, or they're not annealed properly, because I've had a number of them split in half.

I've had un-annealed beads of my own crack after 10 years. I eventually batch annealed my remaining old beads and they stopped cracking.

According to Lucio Bubbaco, who I asked in person, he anneals EVERYTHING and so does pretty much everyone in Italy.There was a rumor for a long time that he didn't, but it was a misunderstanding based on the fact that he batch anneals. When he gives away his demo work, he recommends that the recipient take it home and anneal it so it doesn't break down the road.

Kalera,
You had the Pyrex right on, but marbles made by machine are not annealed in any way. They actually form on a set of two screw augers with a half marble grove cut into each one.
The little lump of glass drops into the top the the slanted augers and the marble forms as it rolls down the slant. At the bottom they are about 700 degrees and they are finished after they cool down in the shop. Millions have been made this way since the early 1900's. Some machines still do it, mostly overseas, natural gas got way too expensive in the marble making areas in Ohio, W. Virginia, and New Jersey.
Just my experience,
HITK,
Kurt

[jamie lynne]

agreed!

BTW, I'm not quite sure why whether Pyrex is boro or tempered soft glass became such an important issue, but again, good information is never a bad thing. I would have sworn it was boro!!

[AKDesigns]

AK, did you read the entire thread about having a bushy flame? My comment was about heat in the flame, not if it was reducing or oxidizing.


Yes I did and below is your actual post.

Joan,
In my experience a soft bushy flame can be cooler, I use a hot head to blow xmas balls from Glasbloken. The wider flame has less heat, more coverage, but if you use a mixed gas torch and use a reduction flame to get it bushy you are not necessarily using the right flame chemistry.
A thinner narrow flame can be more neutral, but is hotter because you are burning more of the fuel (propane).
If you don't need a bushy flame, then try using a slightly oxidizing flame. With a torch that mixes the fuel and O2 properly the flame will be cooler because of the additional cooler oxygen in the flame. Still work at the top of the flame and you should be able to heat any glass with a cooler fire.
This is just my experience, your mileage may vari :)
Have fun,
HITK,
Kurt

The OP's question was about how to stop Frida from bubbling/boiling in the flame. She never asked anyone about a "bushy flame". Ron and I both told her to turn the propane up a bit so she was using a slight reduction flame. You came in and told her the above. Using an oxidizing flame on Frida (like you suggested) would have made it boil even more. I can bet that you answered her question without even knowing what kind of glass Frida is. Very typical.

[sosoft]

Here is some information about glass annealing from the Corning Museum of Glass reference library:

Annealing Glass

"If a hot glass object is cooled "too quickly," it may be strained at room temperature, and therefore may break easily. For small, or thin-walled shapes (particularly those made of glasses having low expansions) the effect may not be serious. For more massive pieces, the strain can be very serious. The amount of strain (observed in a polariscope) depends upon how quickly the object passes through a critical temperature range. The range depends on the composition of the glass but is usually about 450°C. If the glass is cooled slowly through that range, so that the temperature near the surface is never very different from that of the interior, then the strain in the resulting object is much reduced. . Such glass is said to be Annealed."

The point that sticks out is the second sentence about small or thin walled pieces.

I share this because it says nothing about the amount of time that SLOWLY represents. This is just common knowledge and most hot glass workers test COE and compatibility for each specific project. Just buying a kiln and following a program on the internet doe not mean you are annealing glass. You might have only reduced that chance that it won't crack from thermal shock.
By the way 450 degrees C is 842 degrees F. I have never seen a post on this board that recommends soaking any type of soft glass at that temperature to anneal it.:hide:
HITK,
Kurt

[sosoft]

Yes I did and below is your actual post.



The OP's question was about how to stop Frida from bubbling/boiling in the flame. She never asked anyone about a "bushy flame". Ron and I both told her to turn the propane up a bit so she was using a slight reduction flame. You came in and told her the above. Using an oxidizing flame on Frida (like you suggested) would have made it boil even more. I can bet that you answered her question without even knowing what kind of glass Frida is. Very typical.

Ok,
Boiling and bubbling glass is just too hot. Water boils at 212 F. Glass boils at different temperatures depending on the type of glass and it's chemical make up. Boiling any glass is not very good, unless you want to produce a specific effect, like intense black spreading on anice white.
You can try to slant my comment any way you wish. I was only trying to give info about cooling a flame. If I was in error and the OP wanted to know how to reduce a metal based glass, then I apologize. There seemed to be a lot of info in the thread about just working cooler.
JMHO,
HITK,
Kurt

[pam]

In the whole world of lamp working, art glass bead makers that sell their work to the public are no more than 1% of the total. Glass is torched worked in many other fields, glass marbles just for the chemical and ink grinding business dwarf the total amount of glass imported into the US for bead making. I do a lot of research, both on the internet and in my studio. COE and compatibility issues as they pertain to lamp worked beads are not even a blip on the commercial glass industry.
.................................................. .................................................. ..The issues of annealing beads to prevent future cracking is just an idea that a lot of lamp workers subscribe to.
In fact, bead makers are the smallest part of the entire soft glass community.
Have fun,
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. I also shake my head, and actually laugh out loud at most of the drama on LE. There will never be any amount of crap that any person or persons on an internet board can throw at me that will stop me from sharing my own glass experience.

Kurt, can you refer me to the reference for the information you have posted? Research done a few years ago showed that of the lampworkers in the US, glass beadmakers were approximately 5 to 1 over other art glass lampworkers. As you may have noticed, there are more books directed to glass beadmakers, more videos, more tools, more everything, because this is where the predominance of the art glass lampworkers are. I would love to see the basis for your information since it directly contradicts the information I have.

Regarding your second statement quoted above, in 1899 a treatise was published by Benjamin Biser entitled Elements of Glass and Glass Making. On page 76, and I quote,"The Principles of Annealing as Applied to Glass. When we say that reliable strength and durability can, at present, only be imported to glass by annealing, we have the entire context of the subject before us." "Annealing means to heat a substance, like glass, and then allow it to cool gradually. There are at present but two successful methods of doing this. ...The first is applicable generally to lehrs and the latter to ovens." I could go on for pages, but I think you get the point. The issue of annealing beads to prevent future cracking is NOT just an idea that a lot of lamp workers subscribe to, it is a scientific fact.

You know, I don't mind anyone having opinions based on their life experiences, we all do that, but when you state your opinions as if they are in fact factual data it can confuse issues that really shouldn't be confusing at all.

[pam]

Here is some information about glass annealing from the Corning Museum of Glass reference library:

Annealing Glass

"If a hot glass object is cooled "too quickly," it may be strained at room temperature, and therefore may break easily. For small, or thin-walled shapes (particularly those made of glasses having low expansions) the effect may not be serious. For more massive pieces, the strain can be very serious. The amount of strain (observed in a polariscope) depends upon how quickly the object passes through a critical temperature range. The range depends on the composition of the glass but is usually about 450°C. If the glass is cooled slowly through that range, so that the temperature near the surface is never very different from that of the interior, then the strain in the resulting object is much reduced. . Such glass is said to be Annealed."

The point that sticks out is the second sentence about small or thin walled pieces.

I share this because it says nothing about the amount of time that SLOWLY represents. This is just common knowledge and most hot glass workers test COE and compatibility for each specific project. Just buying a kiln and following a program on the internet doe not mean you are annealing glass. You might have only reduced that chance that it won't crack from thermal shock.
By the way 450 degrees C is 842 degrees F. I have never seen a post on this board that recommends soaking any type of soft glass at that temperature to anneal it.:hide:
HITK,
Kurt

And if you had continued reading you would have seen the following on the same page:

"Annealing:

The process of slowly cooling a completed object in an auxiliary part of the glass furnace, or in a separate furnace. This is an integral part of glassmaking because if a hot glass object is allowed to cool too quickly, it will be highly strained by the time it reaches room temperature; indeed, it may break as it cools. Highly strained glasses break easily if subjected to mechanical or thermal shock.>"

[jamie lynne]

well if we didn't scare him off before..... we certainly did now.. lol. 8-[

facts of any kind should be cited, true or untrue give credit where it's due (thanks to my english teacher for that little tid bit, see i cited my teacher, i teach by example, lol)

atleast people will know where you got your info, and know that it wasn't just pulled out of your, ahhhhhemmmm, butt. (cleaned that one up for ya! lol)

[AKDesigns]

Ok,
Boiling and bubbling glass is just too hot. Water boils at 212 F. Glass boils at different temperatures depending on the type of glass and it's chemical make up. Boiling any glass is not very good, unless you want to produce a specific effect, like intense black spreading on anice white.
You can try to slant my comment any way you wish. I was only trying to give info about cooling a flame. If I was in error and the OP wanted to know how to reduce a metal based glass, then I apologize. There seemed to be a lot of info in the thread about just working cooler.
JMHO,
HITK,
Kurt

Frida tends to not like oxygen. Just upping the propane a tad stops the glass from bubbling. If you had ever worked with Frida or if you had any then you could see that for yourself....hence the advise Ron and I gave. I'm not quite sure temperature has much to do with it when it comes to this particular glass.

[AKDesigns]

And with that....I'm done. It's just getting silly, silly I tell you! :lol:

[jamie lynne]

\\:D/ohh come back! it is already off it's tracks, might just as well have some fun with it now!\\:D/

[AKDesigns]

:lol:

[pam]

If you've never played on the Corning site, here is a link. There is lots of really great info there.
http://www.cmog.org/Default.aspx

[sosoft]

well if we didn't scare him off before..... we certainly did now.. lol. 8-[

facts of any kind should be cited, true or untrue give credit where it's due (thanks to my english teacher for that little tid bit, see i cited my teacher, i teach by example, lol)

atleast people will know where you got your info, and know that it wasn't just pulled out of your, ahhhhhemmmm, butt. (cleaned that one up for ya! lol)

I think the post had the source as the first line, forgive me as my memory is a tad slow.
Again, the reference said nothing about annealing to a schedule, any ramp, soak, or heat range.
The article describes how glass was cooled in the beginning, by just leaving it on top the clay brick furnace. This is something they do in Israel to this day and they make household glass ware for cooking and drinking. To ramp that information up into Dangerous Cracking Glass Beads is silly.
You all may think you got it going on when it comes to glass bead making, but the fact is that none of us can paint the entire picture of glass history.
Taking the entire bead making thing so seriously is just not helpful to the newcomer IMHO.
There are no absolutes when it comes to any art form. To take the fun out of glass, by reducing the knowledge to such a narrow view is not helping change the minds of people who turn lamp work away from art fairs because they say "it is a craft hobby, this has no place with fine art"
It's our choice, I choose to support glass art.
HITK,
Kurt

[jamie lynne]

this is the post that i was curious about. what's your source? inquiring minds want to know. LOL



In the whole world of lamp working, art glass bead makers that sell their work to the public are no more than 1% of the total.

[sosoft]

Frida tends to not like oxygen. Just upping the propane a tad stops the glass from bubbling. If you had ever worked with Frida or if you had any then you could see that for yourself....hence the advise Ron and I gave. I'm not quite sure temperature has much to do with it when it comes to this particular glass.

Ak,
Yes, and just upping the propane a bit from a neutral flame cools it down a bit.
Some of the little I know:
neutral is the hottest flame on a mixed gas torch, adding propane OR oxygen and changing the mix cools the flame.
Adding propane is a reduction flame, adding oxygen is an oxidizing flame, but we already knew that didn't we?:roll:
See, I really didn't have an answer either,and I am quite sure of that:-D
HITK,
Kurt

[AKDesigns]

And Frida will still boil if you up the oxygen so you've helped to prove my point. It's not a temperature issue with Frida but a flame chemistry issue.

[likes to make glass stuff]

the only reason I posted about pyrex was so that newer folks wouldn't buy it and hope to melt it as boro...ask me how I know ;)

(bought it, then found out that some of it is soda lime. Thrift shop purchases, but I don't even want to deal with trying to figure out whether it's old enough to be boro or not. )

[jamie lynne]

also as a side note, that post wasn't directed at you personally, it is something i think every one should do... for example, if i got my info from wiki people might know why i was misinformed

[sosoft]

this is the post that i was curious about. what's your source? inquiring minds want to know. LOL
Let us see,
There are perhaps 3,000 active glass bead makers in the US.
How many folks attend The Gathering for example?
Ok, lets say that there are 10,000 others who just make beads from soft glass. I give you 15,000 in the US and perhaps 5000 in the rest of the world. 20,000 total.
There are 250,000 folks working in soft glass in China alone.
Add the world wide total of the furnace gals/guys, and students maybe 50,000 more?
Ok, lets get real, the commercial glass industry employs about 400,000 workers in the world. Water glasses, plates, those PYREX dishes, Stuben, window pane, lab glass ware ( oh I forgot the torch working lab boys in industry, 10,000 at least) Can we include the raging rockers of the boro world? 10,000 worldwide.
We gotta give Tommy Chong credit for the time he spent in jail for making glass bongs on a commercial scale,(another 5,000 workers). What about the folks who make our glass? Gaffer, Zimmerman, Lausha, Moretti Etc, gotta be at least 5,000 folks. I think I could find a few more, but you get the picture.
COE, Annealing, compatibility, color mixing, metal laden glass. It has all been done before, slapping glass into a press has been done to make beads for at least 200 years. Selling little presses for $75 to make beads at home, maybe 10 years.
My point again is that none of us know enough to tell anyone some absolute fact about hot glass working. I don't care if you make beads, marbles, or glass eyes (Germans are the best)
There will always be some issues that can not be answered with simple facts. As a science and an art form, glass is one of the most fascinating substances on our planet. I, for one, am now going over to the shop and play around. It always gets my mind off of the little blips, like my time on LE today.:wink:
Good luck, have fun
HITK,
Kurt

[jamie lynne]

so it is an educated guess.... not a fact?

[sosoft]

And Frida will still boil if you up the oxygen so you've helped to prove my point. It's not a temperature issue with Frida but a flame chemistry issue.

Ak,
I can put Frida or Sam or Clarence(or any of the other cute little hype names for silver glass) into the back of any flame chemistry and it won't even melt, so what is your point exactly?
I have already stated SEVERAL times that I do not use the overly expensive silver glass. I bought FOUR rods last year!
If you are a master at silver glass, I congratulate you. I am not.
My experience is with working soft and hard glass in the torch.
I also fuse it, grind it. polish it, bake it, mix it, make it, and in my experience am fascinated by the art objects I can make with it.
If all of you want to criticize me for that, then I am guilty as charged.
You can't steal my joy as it comes from within myself. I can't control anyone's experience with glass or anything else in life.
Just my experience, hope you find joy with yours!
HITK,
Kurt

[sosoft]

so it is an educated guess.... not a fact?

The title of the post speaks for itself, you are welcome to post your idea of our place (beadmakers) in the world of hot glass.
HITK,
Kurt

[AKDesigns]

Ak,

I have already stated SEVERAL times that I do not use the overly expensive silver glass. I bought FOUR rods last year!


:lol: Then why oh why did you give a noob advice (bad advice) about a silver glass when you are admitting you have no experience with it? :lol: Priceless!

:lol:

[sosoft]

The title of the post speaks for itself, you are welcome to post your idea of our place (beadmakers) in the world of hot glass.
HITK,
Kurt
Ps.
Not to put too fine a point on this drama today, but the original thread about encasing siver glass where I opened this can of frit has an interesting ending.
It seems that Abe only got a hand full of requests to replace the "BAD" DC glass he makes for a living. I think I remember him stating that out of 1000 batches he only had 3 that were not the correct COE.
I saw 6 or 7 people try to convince the entire LE board that only the DC could have been bad, not one of them even pondered that techinque, or kiln heat, or thermal shock MIGHT have been the problem.
Those folks are all happy now that they got brand new glass from what I see as thin (or should I say hot) air.
They ignored facts stated by the manfacturer and others, (I wasn't the only one defending the DC clear)
I hope they are happy with the new glass.
HITK,
Kurt

[BeadMaven]

Ak,
I can put Frida or Sam or Clarence(or any of the other cute little hype names for silver glass) into the back of any flame chemistry and it won't even melt, so what is your point exactly?
I have already stated SEVERAL times that I do not use the overly expensive silver glass. I bought FOUR rods last year!
If you are a master at silver glass, I congratulate you. I am not.
My experience is with working soft and hard glass in the torch.


So why would you even post to answer questions regarding a glass you haven't even used? The question about flame chemistry would be directly involved with the glass being used - in that case Frida.

Silver glass is soft yes, but its not the same as a regular, non silver glass.

Eh, didn't Abe come in and after testing, and say there was in fact a problem with a specific batch of DC? I thought he did.

I disagree with your opinion on annealing as well but I'll let Pam and others handle that. lol

[sosoft]

:lol: Then why oh why did you give a noob advice (bad advice) about a silver glass when you are admitting you have no experience with it? :lol: Priceless!

:lol:

Ak,
I see that you know it all, so I will humble myself before you.
Thanks for the critique,
I will try to do better in the future,
HITK,
Kurt

[AKDesigns]

Ak,
I see that you know it all, so I will humble myself before you.
Thanks for the critique,
I will try to do better in the future,
HITK,
Kurt

word.

[jamie lynne]

](*,)

[sosoft]

So why would you even post to answer questions regarding a glass you haven't even used? The question about flame chemistry would be directly involved with the glass being used - in that case Frida.

Silver glass is soft yes, but its not the same as a regular, non silver glass.


Basic torch working will not be revolutionized by melting silver 104 COE glass, sorry.
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. If anyone actually reads what I post, then they would know that I have some experience with melting metal and glass rods in a mixed gas torch. I was mixing glass with silver in the torch before LE was a chat board. I just don't buy into the expensive silver glass sold now days.

[pam]

Approximately 5 years ago there were around 35,000 ART glass workers in the US. I don't have a clue what it is today, more or less. This does not take into account factory workers.

[AKDesigns]

Basic torch working will not be revolutionized by melting silver 104 COE glass, sorry.
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. If anyone actually reads what I post, then they would know that I have some experience with melting metal and glass rods in a mixed gas torch. I was mixing glass with silver in the torch before LE was a chat board. I just don't buy into the expensive silver glass sold now days.

Actually silver glass is a completely different animal. And if you don't "buy into" the expensive silver glass then don't buy it, don't trash it and don't give people advice on how to use it.

[BeadMaven]

Basic torch working will not be revolutionized by melting silver 104 COE glass, sorry.
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. If anyone actually reads what I post, then they would know that I have some experience with melting metal and glass rods in a mixed gas torch. I was mixing glass with silver in the torch before LE was a chat board. I just don't buy into the expensive silver glass sold now days.

Using silver glass is completely different than mixing silver with glass.
Its clear you haven't any experience in working with the expensive silver glasses.

[BeadMaven]

Actually silver glass is a completely different animal. And if you don't "buy into" the expensive silver glass then don't buy it, don't trash it and don't give people advice on how to use it.

GMTA! :lol:

[jamie lynne]

well, as Lorraine said in response to me earlier, some threads derail and it is funny and some are serious.... since this one went from derailed to a train wreck, can we turn it into a funny one? please ohhh please! i'll start!

\\:D/ amy if you will do the happy dance with me, i will also be humbled before your greatness too\\:D/

[pam]

Ps.
Not to put too fine a point on this drama today, but the original thread about encasing siver glass where I opened this can of frit has an interesting ending.
It seems that Abe only got a hand full of requests to replace the "BAD" DC glass he makes for a living. I think I remember him stating that out of 1000 batches he only had 3 that were not the correct COE.
I saw 6 or 7 people try to convince the entire LE board that only the DC could have been bad, not one of them even pondered that techinque, or kiln heat, or thermal shock MIGHT have been the problem.
Those folks are all happy now that they got brand new glass from what I see as thin (or should I say hot) air.
They ignored facts stated by the manfacturer and others, (I wasn't the only one defending the DC clear)
I hope they are happy with the new glass.
HITK,
Kurt

Kurt, what are you trying to do here, rewrite history according to Kurt? Many different people using different annealing schedules and different combinations of glass and different techniques, who had previously had success when using DC, all of a sudden were experiencing cracks when using a specific batch of DC glass. Using the same color combinations and annealing schedules and techniques there was no breakage when using another clear. And Abe tested and as a result of his testing replaced the glass for anyone who chose to have it replaced. You are writing fiction.

[Carolyn M]

Basic torch working will not be revolutionized by melting silver 104 COE glass, sorry.
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. If anyone actually reads what I post, then they would know that I have some experience with melting metal and glass rods in a mixed gas torch. I was mixing glass with silver in the torch before LE was a chat board. I just don't buy into the expensive silver glass sold now days.

Wow, that's too bad Kirt because I make a bunch of money selling my beads made with silver glass. Maybe you should move with the times dude!

Seriously, I would love to see some pics of some of your beads/sculptures or whatever it is you make. I'm sure the bead in your avatar is not all you do. Perhaps you could post in the gallery some time?

[Carolyn M]

Kurt, what are you trying to do here, rewrite history according to Kurt? Many different people using different annealing schedules and different combinations of glass and different techniques, who had previously had success when using DC, all of a sudden were experiencing cracks when using a specific batch of DC glass. Using the same color combinations and annealing schedules and techniques there was no breakage when using another clear. And Abe tested and as a result of his testing replaced the glass for anyone who chose to have it replaced. You are writing fiction.

And I chose not to have my glass replaced because I think Abe is wonderful to take our concerns so seriously, and I would hate him to be out of pocket. I will continue to use this excellent glass.

[Hayley]

Seriously, I would love to see some pics of some of your beads/sculptures or whatever it is you make. I'm sure the bead in your avatar is not all you do. Perhaps you could post in the gallery some time?

Here you go, Carolyn:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/album.php?albumid=106

[squid]

good grief :lol:

[AKDesigns]

good grief :lol:

:lol: That sums it up pretty good.

[sosoft]

Approximately 5 years ago there were around 35,000 ART glass workers in the US. I don't have a clue what it is today, more or less. This does not take into account factory workers.

Well Pam,
Since a few of you choose to vilify me because of what I say, where does YOUR information come from?


You seem to be the leader of this group ,or at least you choose to drop in with a little bit of info to support the clan.

Since they look up to your intellect and ability, would you please share some thoughts about my take on all of this drama?

As is common with some artists, after they find out they can't stop the truth by character assassination, they attack whatever else they can. I haven't taken a photo of anything I have made for at least 8 years. I posted some pictures because that is what I had left laying around. Most of the rest of what I made was sold to a lot of very satisfied customers. I have never attacked anyone's art on this, or any other site. You can tell the pack of judgmental artists on LE that I have looked at everything sold by everyone for maybe 3 years now. I would like to see any of them post beads they made in their first year of bead making, let she/he who is without mistakes or bad color choices,cast the first rod.
As always, this is just my experience
HITK,
Kurt

[sosoft]

Wow, that's too bad Kirt because I make a bunch of money selling my beads made with silver glass. Maybe you should move with the times dude!

Seriously, I would love to see some pics of some of your beads/sculptures or whatever it is you make. I'm sure the bead in your avatar is not all you do. Perhaps you could post in the gallery some time?

Carolyn,
Thank you so much, I never thought of selling anything that I made from glass:-k
I guess that I have been too busy making beads and marbles that someone else sells. Because I choose not to use silver glass, please don't shoot me. I get enough burns from the torch and the rest of my life to worry about the little flames I find here on LE " a friendly place......"
HITK,
Kurt
Ps What exactly is a dude? I guess I am old school, but the only folks out here that use the word dude are surfers and other stoners:biggrin:

[AKDesigns]

Dude, chill.

[sosoft]

Here you go, Carolyn:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/album.php?albumid=106

Hayley,
Thank you so much for your link, I don't have a lot to show since I haven't taken a photo in eight years. You have been so kind in your continued criticism of my posts. It's nice to see others give freely without an agenda of their own.
I am sorry that I do not have any silver glass, so I won't be able to make beads for your trade game. I am so sad that I will miss out on you taking pictures of my work to illustrate a book you will be selling for a profit.
I always try to help my fellow artists, but I just can't afford that expensive glass.
Maybe next year.
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. Some of the comments here on LE "a friendly place..." are so transparent that you would think they were made from DC.
Oh, I forgot, disregard this Ps., I think those comments were the bad batch of DC, got to go and call ABE.

[Kalera]

Kalera,
You had the Pyrex right on, but marbles made by machine are not annealed in any way. They actually form on a set of two screw augers with a half marble grove cut into each one.
The little lump of glass drops into the top the the slanted augers and the marble forms as it rolls down the slant. At the bottom they are about 700 degrees and they are finished after they cool down in the shop. Millions have been made this way since the early 1900's. Some machines still do it, mostly overseas, natural gas got way too expensive in the marble making areas in Ohio, W. Virginia, and New Jersey.
Just my experience,
HITK,
Kurt


Like most commercially produced glass, they're usually run through a lehr after being formed, which is a form of annealing. "Controlled slow cooling". They're cooled relatively quickly, which wouldn't work well for many beads, but a sphere is a very structurally sound shape.

I've been doing this for 17 years and I worked in a glass factory, so I've picked a few things up.

[Kalera]

The article describes how glass was cooled in the beginning, by just leaving it on top the clay brick furnace.

Yes. This is called "annealing". It is hard to know if you're hitting your target temperature, but it is still annealing.


This is something they do in Israel to this day and they make household glass ware for cooking and drinking. To ramp that information up into Dangerous Cracking Glass Beads is silly.

Some years back, I gave an un-annealed (actually, a so-called "flame annealed" and slow cooled) sculptural goddess bead to a friend. She had it for four years, and then one day she was getting ready to go somewhere and it suddenly got very warm and literally exploded into small fragments that flew across the room. It's very fortunate that she wasn't hurt at all, and I never gave away an un-annealed piece again. I would certainly never sell one. I have seen many, many un-annealed beads break or crack.

The physics of internal stress in glass are very well understood and documented. Glass workers have developed ways to control cooling to alleviate that stress since glass was developed. This is not something beadmakers are making up.

[Kalera]

I was mixing glass with silver in the torch before LE was a chat board.

Most of us have been, as it happens. This board is only about four years old. Some of us have been torching and working glass in other ways for more than twenty years. If you hope to trump people's knowledge with your "experience", it might first be wise to get an accurate gauge of other people's experience.

[rg9403]

Here's some mushroom pendants made with the same technique.

[rg9403]

I like the green one on the left because it has a nice veil on the stem.

And yes these were all annealed in a digital kiln

[rg9403]

I like the green one on the left because it has a nice veil on the stem.

And yes these were all annealed in a digital kiln!!!!

[tasminann]

Those are so cool!!!!! :)

[Cosmo]

Kalera,
You had the Pyrex right on, but marbles made by machine are not annealed in any way. They actually form on a set of two screw augers with a half marble grove cut into each one.
The little lump of glass drops into the top the the slanted augers and the marble forms as it rolls down the slant. At the bottom they are about 700 degrees and they are finished after they cool down in the shop. Millions have been made this way since the early 1900's. Some machines still do it, mostly overseas, natural gas got way too expensive in the marble making areas in Ohio, W. Virginia, and New Jersey.
Just my experience,
HITK,
Kurt

That is true. And, how many times have you seen one of those machine made marbles break?

Here's an article about a guy who lives here in my town that was national marble champion back in the 50's. http://www.salemmuseum.org/guide_archives/HSV6N1.html#gwaltney

Through my making marbles I came in contact with him. One of his big complaints was that his marbles would break after he used them too many times. And, sometimes they would break the first time he shot them. I annealed some for him in my kiln and they have been through many tournaments used both by him and some younger members of his family.

[pam]

Well Pam,
Since a few of you choose to vilify me because of what I say, where does YOUR information come from?

My information comes from a survey done by me of various vendors in the US. My aim was to find out the number of glass beadmakers.


You seem to be the leader of this group ,or at least you choose to drop in with a little bit of info to support the clan. Not in any way the leader and they would laugh at that. However, I do tend to know where info can be garnered since I have been glass beadmaking for quite a long time.

Since they look up to your intellect and ability, would you please share some thoughts about my take on all of this drama? Well, Kurt, I am not sure what your take is, but my take is you came on this thread giving out bad information, then followed up by giving more bad information and then more with no basis in facts. Everyone should be able to relate their own experiences and no one cares, but when you make statements that are filled with allegations of facts that are just plain wrong, don't expect people to just step around you and keep walking. In order to keep the correct information as we know it today fresh in people's minds, especially people just starting into this wonderful art form, you have to be confronted and your wrongs have to be exposed for what they are.

As is common with some artists, after they find out they can't stop the truth by character assassination, they attack whatever else they can. I haven't taken a photo of anything I have made for at least 8 years. I posted some pictures because that is what I had left laying around. Most of the rest of what I made was sold to a lot of very satisfied customers. I have never attacked anyone's art on this, or any other site. You can tell the pack of judgmental artists on LE that I have looked at everything sold by everyone for maybe 3 years now. I would like to see any of them post beads they made in their first year of bead making, let she/he who is without mistakes or bad color choices,cast the first rod.
As always, this is just my experience
HITK,
Kurt

Basically from what I recall from another thread, Kurt, you have been working hot glass for around 8 years. That's great, and I am sure you could have gained a lot of experience and good information in those 8 years, but both you and your wife seem to come on this forum to "batter down the walls of established glass knowledge" and why you would want to do that is beyond my ability to analyze. People in the glass community have worked really hard to establish practices which are safe and which result in a good art product that one can be proud of. Some of the changes and challenges haven't been easy, but it has been done to the best of our ability and knowledge as of this date and time. That doesn't mean that tomorrow something won't change. Knowledge grows and should be enhanced and added to by every person in the community. You coming on here and basically taking everyone back to the 1800s in your statements just cannot be left to stand. I'm sorry you feel that you are being attacked, but for my part, I feel you are the one doing the attacking.

Respectfully,

[jamie lynne]

ohhh yes, very nice, what size rod did you use? are those boro?

Here's some mushroom pendants made with the same technique.

[jamie lynne]

Is this a personal attack of Hayley? I can honestly say she has helped ME with every problem I have posted, from help finding a glass that i needed for a customer of mine, to help reducing for the reduction challenged, and has asked for NOTHING in return, as most of the people on this board also share freely.

I can also say that the majority of people on here do NOT have an agenda, what kind of agenda do you bring to a glass board? BUT!!!I saw in another post (that i believe you started) that silver glass was a conspiracy, PERHAPS THAT IS THE AGENDA! :-k To convert all glass bead makers to silver glass! ](*,)

She posted a link your photos, that you have up for everyone to see, so we can see what you have been making these days, honestly if she would have posted a link to mine I would have dropped on the floor with excitement, because I'm proud of what I make, and that is why i post them! I may be new here, as far as join dates go, but i have been a LONG TIME STALKER LOL, and I have gained a ton of info, and inspiration from every one here, certainly not from Hayley alone. (though she has been a great help)

She sells books for profit? And some how you have turned that into a NEGATIVE? My god, that is my dream! Getting to enjoy MY JOB, and making a PROFIT to boot! can you say DREAM JOB!?


Hayley,
Thank you so much for your link, I don't have a lot to show since I haven't taken a photo in eight years. You have been so kind in your continued criticism of my posts. It's nice to see others give freely without an agenda of their own.
I am sorry that I do not have any silver glass, so I won't be able to make beads for your trade game. I am so sad that I will miss out on you taking pictures of my work to illustrate a book you will be selling for a profit.
I always try to help my fellow artists, but I just can't afford that expensive glass.
Maybe next year.
HITK,
Kurt
Ps. Some of the comments here on LE "a friendly place..." are so transparent that you would think they were made from DC.
Oh, I forgot, disregard this Ps., I think those comments were the bad batch of DC, got to go and call ABE.

[BugNerd]

Their comments started off friendly, Kurt. If everyone responds to you a certain way, then maybe it's time to see if there is something that can be changed within.

Just sayin'...