Oxycon problems; any ideas?

[clan tabby]

Ok, it took me a while to figure this out because I'm a newbie & am just clueless a lot of the time. I got my carport studio set up in mid-August. I had a new Cricket torch, propane & an Ex-15 scratch'n'dent oxycon from ABR Imagery. Later I got another oxycon for backup.

After a bit I began to wonder why people thought a Cricket was such a hot torch. What did they use before? A lighter? In order to get a flame hot enough to do much of anything I needed to nudge up the propane. I thought, well, maybe that's normal for a Cricket. I used a Mini cc at the open studio I went to & that torch worked a whole lot hotter than the Cricket.

A couple of weeks ago I started realizing there was something else wrong, not me, not the Cricket. The studio owner let me take home the Mini cc to try it out on my set-up. I know it works really well on an old funky oxycon because one Sunday the O2 tanks ran dry & I used the oxycon. Well, at my place it barely sputtered.

Ross at ABR suggested I take off the flashback arrestor, so I did, but didn't help much, if at all. So - anyone have any ideas? Both oxycons act exactly the same. I even tried switching to the outlet that my kiln runs from, but no change. They sound fine, but if a 15-oxycon can't run a Cricket, something is very much amiss. I'm hoping someone has some ideas I haven't thought of.

[2xMI]

I think you're saying you have 2 oxycons, and neither one will power either of the torches you've tried them with? It sounds like it might be the hose, or whatever you're using to attach the hose to the oxycon(s). Have you tried swapping out the coupling device? Are you using quick connects? Have you tried blowing out the hose to make sure there's no obstruction?

Good luck, I know it's frustrating!

Mimi

[Elizabeth Beads]

Sounds like the sieve beds in your oxycons may be bad. Ask me how I know.

You don't need flashback arrestors on oxycons, there is nothing that can go boom.

[clan tabby]

Hmm, Mimi, I would never have thought of the hose. It's a LONG hose & came with the set-up I originally bought, so it's not new; maybe it did get gunked up with some debris during the time it wasn't in use. The coupling device is another thing I wouldn't have thought of. We put in a lot of new pieces (connects to torch, QCs), but I think the coupler at the oxycon is not new. So - if I try blowing through that connection at the oxycon, I should not feel that I'm trying to blow up a balloon, but rather the air should flow freely to the torch?

I do use quick connects, but am unwilling to give them up since I like the option of being able to switch or move torches. I've never heard anybody mention that QCs obstruct air passage.

Elizabeth - I know spark arrestors aren't really necessary on an oxycon, but since we live in a rental, I wanted to be over the top safe just in case there was ever any kind of safely question from anyone. It didn't feel threatening to remove it from the oxy line, but it didn't help. And could it really be sieve beds in 2 new oxycons? They've both acted like this from the get-go.

Thanks so much for your ideas & comments. Much appreciated!

Nancie

[Janetlee]

The longer the hose the less air you will get . As it travels it loses the strength, because its going so far. Get smaller length of hose. Also check to see if you might have small hole in the hose. Run soapy water down the hose while its on and see if you get any bubbles. Its probably the length of hose causing your problem.
You just don't get the output with a Long hose.
Janet

[clan tabby]

Ah, the hose again. Maybe we've found the culprit! That would be great if it were nothing more complex that changing the hose. I've actually though about shortening it before because it's just a lot of coiled hose that occasionally gets underfoot, but never did. Guess today is the day. Thanks Janet!

Any other ideas?

[pam]

The pressure from the oxy con will lessen substantially by a longer hose, the longer it is the less pressure you will get. Also, just make sure you can blow through the qc as sometimes those can be a problem. Sounds like it's something simple, like the hose.

[kbinkster]

If you keep your concentrator right there under the bench near your torch, then you should have no trouble cutting your lines to about 4-6'. But, really, 15 psi (what your EX-15 should be putting out pressure-wise) is still plenty to get enough oxygen through a long line to run the Cricket. There's plenty of room for the pressure to drop.

Before you cut your oxygen line, maybe you could try a short length of 1/4" ID (inner diameter) vinyl tubing to test it out.

Keep in mind that if something took a hard enough hit to be a scratch-and-dent special, it could have taken on damage internally, as well. Not always, of course, but there is always that possibility.

[clan tabby]

OK, not the hose. Took it to the local welding place & they cut it down to 6' (it was only ~ 10' to begin with) & tried it, with the quick connect, at 15 psi, & a bit less, with an O2 tank, & it works fine. Didn't make a bit of difference when I brought it home & hooked it up. Phooey.

Kimberly, one of the oxycons is a scratch'n'dent, but the other was shipped new from the manufacturer. That's why it's so weird they act just the same. Is it possible they might both have the same problem? But what? Both people I talked to (Ross at ABR & Paul at Extreme Oxygen) thought that, if they run ok, they should be ok. But they're not, or something is not.

Any other ideas? Anybody else had this problem?

[pam]

Did you check the quick connects?

[clan tabby]

At the welders, the set-up with QCs worked fine when they hooked it up to an O2 tank at 15 psi, & a bit less than 15; no restriction of air flow.

[kbinkster]

When you disconnect your machines from everything else and allow them to flow freely, what do they do? Can you set them to 8 LPM and the ball stay relatively steady, there at the 8 LPM mark, with just a little fluctuation corresponding to the valve purge - there can be a slight delay (the rythmic woosh switching sound)? How many seconds between each woosh? Is it the same for both machines? If you block the outlet with your thumb, can you get the ball to drop?

How are you connecting the two machines together? If it has check valves, you should be able to blow through the ends that connect to the machines, but not back up through the end that goes to the torch. There is some restriction, so it won't be perfectly free-flowing, but the psi put out by most all concentrators is more than enough to handle it. If it does not have check valves, it is possible that if one machine is putting out quite a bit more psi than the other, it could be pressurizing the line with its own pressure and not allowing the other machine to get any of its oxygen into the line. This will make it seem as if there is no improvement from using just one machine (because there isn't). Test the Cricket on each machine by itself and see how it does.

Check the barbs on your Cricket and see if there is anything on the oxygen barb that could be blocking the flow. There are little screens on the ends. Also make sure that the torch is clean and that there are no blockages on the face/inthe tubes and ports.

Is it possible to take your Cricket to the place where you do open torch and run it there on their equipment and see how it does?




What kind of flame are you able to get on your Cricket as it is right now?

[clan tabby]

Kimberly - I'm only using one oxycon. I got the other as backup & for the possibility of running 2 torches if my husband wanted to learn to torch as well. I did order a y-connect from Arrow Springs a couple of days ago, but it hasn't arrived, so I can't try the two together.

I did run the machines unconnected (per Paul) & try the finger over the outlet test, & the balls drop almost immediately. Both machines do sound the same & "breathe" at the same or very similar rates.

I could take the Cricket to the studio, but it wouldn't be for a couple of weeks (my aunt's 90th b-day this Sunday), & having the Mini cc that I normally use in studio on loan here, I know how it should work, & it's abysmal when I hook it up with my set-up; can't get candles without yellow unless I turn the propane completely off. In which case there are no candles at all, of course.

I was outside working at the torch (my aunt's b-day present - egad!!), & there was some minor improvement, probably from removing the flashback arrestor. I guess I'll have to try removing the quick connect, tho I kind of hope that's not the problem 'cuz it would make switching the torch out much more of a hassle. Less hassle than having to send back oxycons for repair, I suppose. I'm waiting for my husband to get back because he's the one with enough strength to undo those connections.

Thanks for all of your input & if anyone else has anything they think might apply here, I'd be happy to hear it!

[kbinkster]

When you have your Cricket running on one machine, can you get neutral candles (mostly blue with small tips), at all? How long can you get your candles out and the flame still be neutral?

I did a lot of testing of torches on concentrators and took measurements. Maybe you could use my testing as a benchmark of what you can expect a torch to do on a concentrator set-up.

On an Invacare (5 LPM at 5 psi), here were my measurements for the Cricket and the Mini CC (the torches were hooked up on a Y connector - so I could run two torches at the same time - and that Y connector cuts down flow a little bit, much like what a quick disconnect would):


Carlisle Mini CC
candle length: 0.25”
shoulder width: 0.925”
flame length: 9”
small pinpoint flame: carrot shaped, no thrust

GTT Cricket
candle length: 0.500”
shoulder width: 0.750”
flame length: 13”
small pinpoint flame: hot needle flame can get very tight

straight off concentrator, not through Y connector:
candle length: 0.550”
shoulder width: 0.850-0.880”
flame length: 13”
small pinpoint flame: hot needle flame can get very tight

These are not huge flames, but they are enough for working soft glass beads and some small boro (moreso for the Cricket than the Mini CC). The flames measured were the largest neutral flames I could get before the flame distorted and went into reduction.

I repeated the tests using a Regalia (10 LPM at 8 psi) as well and got these results:


GTT Cricket
candle length: 1”
shoulder width: 1.150”
flame length: 14”

time to cut through 8mm boro rod: 14 seconds

Carlisle Mini CC
candle length: 0.800” (longer center jet)
shoulder width: 0.900”
flame length: 9”

time to cut through 8mm boro rod: 16 seconds

candle length: 0.575” (center jet more even with rest)
shoulder width: 0.800”
flame length: 13”

Your EX-15 should be putting out 8 LPM, which is right between my two machines in flow output. So, your results ought to be somewhere between my measurements, as well.

[clan tabby]

Kimberly, I can get barely 1/4" of neutral candles on the Cricket, no - more like 3/8" neutral & bumping the propane a bit I can get 1/4-5/8". This is what I've been using when I work on the Cricket. I'm not sure of the flame length; I have trouble seeing the flame really well. No wonder I thought it was wimpy, right?

We took off the quick connect & no difference.

With the oxycon on & air flowing through the torch, it's like a very soft breeze; very gentle & not at all powerful.

Aargh, I really don't want to send the oxycons back, but it seems that it must be them at fault.

[kbinkster]

You say that you have a hard time even seeing the flame. Is it more of an ice-blue flame than a rich-blue flame? If it is lighter color blue, then that could mean that your purity is poor, too. It is possible that you could have a leak somewhere inside that is keeping the pressure from building up enough in the seive beds. This results in a low flow and poor purity. Maybe call Paul and ask him to walk you through checking for leaks inside your machine before you send it back.

[squid]

I didn't see if someone asked this, but when you run the oxycon with the torch hooked up but not lit, does the ball on the machine stay up? Crickets don't use as much oxy as other torches, so it might not stay at 8, but it should stay close.

[clan tabby]

Squid - just went back outside to check to make sure, and, yes, the ball stays right on the 8. I don't remember seeing that ball fluctuate much, but, of course, when I'm working I'm not looking much at the oxycon. It/they LOOK & SOUND like they are fine, but I'm sure not getting the oxygen.

Kimberly - I just have a hard time seeing the flame; something to do with my eyesight. Makes it difficult to "situate" myself (i.e. beads) in various parts of the flame; sometimes I don't know where the heck they are with respect to where they should be for what I want to do. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the flame is ~ 8-9" long.

I wonder why Paul didn't suggest that when I spoke with him? I'll try to catch him again tomorrow, between appointments & chasing around town.

[FyreFiend]

My thought is this; you have tried to cover the bases with the oxycon and . not found a solution. What is your gas pressure set at? Could you have enough gas going through your torch that the oxycon can't keep up?

We were having trouble melting mandrels until I talked with the Carlisle rep and he told me that the gas pressure should be approx 1/2 the oxy flow, and we were outrunning the oxycon with our generous application of propane. (if oxy= 8 lpm, then gas should = 3 1/2 - 4psi). Stands to reason, the more gas you use, the more oxy you use.

Maybe there is a problem there. Just my 2 knuts worth....

Desa

[kbinkster]

Squid - just went back outside to check to make sure, and, yes, the ball stays right on the 8. I don't remember seeing that ball fluctuate much, but, of course, when I'm working I'm not looking much at the oxycon. It/they LOOK & SOUND like they are fine, but I'm sure not getting the oxygen.

Kimberly - I just have a hard time seeing the flame; something to do with my eyesight. Makes it difficult to "situate" myself (i.e. beads) in various parts of the flame; sometimes I don't know where the heck they are with respect to where they should be for what I want to do. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the flame is ~ 8-9" long.

I wonder why Paul didn't suggest that when I spoke with him? I'll try to catch him again tomorrow, between appointments & chasing around town.

I'm very curious to know what you find out. I had a similar case with a client of mine running a Cricket on an Invacare. Her flame would start out fine, but then get wimpy. She had run another concentrator with her torch and had no problems. We checked all sorts of possibilities and tried all sorts of things, but she still had the same problem. She ended up shipping the concentrator back to the shop, but upon inspection, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the machine. They did a leak test on it, tested the pressure and LPM outputs, and even simulated torching conditions (increasing and decreasing output while running like a torch valve would). They ran the machine for a very long time and it just purred along like it should. Everything was within specs. The machine was sent back to the customer, she hooked it all back up, and everything worked.

Check those screens on the barbs, again. Check your fuel pressure like Desa suggested. If you run your psi to about 5-10 psi, that should keep your regulator from fluctuating, give you an ample suppy of fuel on demand, and still be a low enough psi that you can fine tune your flame easily.

Be sure you know what a neutral flame looks like on the torch you are running (it can vary slightly from torch to torch). If you are running too much oxygen, just like when you are running too much fuel, you are cooling your flame. If you are running candles that are shorter than 1/4", you want to run an oxygen rich flame to keep the torch face from overheating. This means that the candles will be all blue with no tips. Once you get the candles longer than 1/4", you can start having some tips on the end. For candles that are 3/8" long, I would say that you could have 1-2 mm long white/yellow tips on the ends and it would be a neutral flame. The longer your candles, the bigger the tips on the end can be while maintaining a neutral flame. Look at the shape of the ends of the candles. If they are rounded, it is usually neutral. Once they start shooting out a little feather, the flame is going into reduction. Some glass is not sensitive to the subtle variations in flame chemistry while other glass is, so pay attention to the colors you are getting with your glass and adjust as you go accordingly.

[clan tabby]

Desa & Kimberly - one of the 1st things I did when all this started was fool around with the gas pressure. It had been set at ~6, but I lowered it & played around with different settings (it's now at 4), but there was no change.

Kimberly, I'm sure it's not the torch since the Mini cc suffers even more than the Cricket from lack of oxygen, & the Mini works wonderfully at the studio.

I can't quite get 1/4" candles without yellow tips. That's with the O2 fully open all of the time. When I bump the propane a tad, I get 1/4-5/8' candles, but it's no longer a neutral flame. That's why I've had such a "black thumb" with the little bits of silver glass that I've tried to use. Maybe that's why I'm the only person on the planet who hasn't been able to get results from Amy's storm tut. That was one of the 1st "what IS going on here?" moments I had. The technique is so simple & straightforward - why could I not get one single storm stringer? I thought it was me; I thought the Cricket must need just a bit of yellow tips, otherwise the flame was too cool to melt a gather unless the glass was practically touching the ports.

We have to leave in an hour for some chores & stuff, but I'll check back when I return. Kimberly - maybe I should load up the oxycon & give it a ride around town? Ha.

Thanks again, you guys, for your comments & suggestions. I really appreciate all of your time & efforts! Keep 'em coming; maybe there's one little thing that I haven't tried yet.

Nancie

[kbinkster]

:lol: Yes, give it a ride around town and see what happens. That might do the trick. If you do, keep it upright.:lol:

If you can't get 1/4" candles with no tips on a Cricket and an 8 LPM oxycon, then there is a definite problem. It's a cool flame, but you should still be able to get that.

Now, are you setting it up and setting the oxycon to 8 LPM after it is connected to the torch?

What I suggest:
http://www.pyronamix.com/page5.html

How do I start up and shut down?
Once everything is connected and you have determined that there are no leaks, you are ready to start.

Open the oxygen valve on your torch all the way. Turn on your concentrator/generator and set your desired flow rate and let it run for about ten minutes to warm up. Never set you concentrator higher than the flow rate for which it is rated. On a 5 LPM machine, that would mean to never set it higher than 5 LPM. (on your 8 LPM machine, Nancie, then you could set it at 8)

While the fuel valve on your torch is off, open the valve on the propane tank and adjust your regulator to about 5 psi higher than what you want your fuel pressure to be. If you are using Natural Gas, then simply open the valve to your Natural Gas supply.

To light your torch:

Turn off the oxygen at the torch just long enough to light the fuel.
Slowly open the fuel valve on your torch and light the fuel.
Slowly open the oxygen valve on your torch.
Adjust the flame.

[2xMI]

Kimberly--

Help! I'm confused by this statement in your answer above:

While the fuel valve on your torch is off, open the valve on the propane tank and adjust your regulator to about 5 psi higher than what you want your fuel pressure to be. If you are using Natural Gas, then simply open the valve to your Natural Gas supply.

If you want your fuel pressure to be about 5 PSI, are you recommending the PSI be set at 10? Isn't the fuel pressure supposed to be set at (roughly) 1/2 of the LPM? Or have I got it all wrong?

Thanks,

Mimi

[squid]

Many regulators will "breathe" and fluctuate at 5 lpm, so it is wise to set it around 10 - you control the propane at the torch anyway. You want it set high enough that the reg doesn't breathe but low enough that you can adjust your torch in small increments to get the flame the way you want it.

[2xMI]

Thanks; that makes sense.

Mimi

[kbinkster]

Yep, what Squid said.

When you hear the 2:1 ratio thing... really, it doesn't do anything for you unless you are opening your torch valves all the way and adjusting the flame with your regulators. It can be done that way, but what's the point of having precision valves on the torch, then?

You adjust the mix with the valves on your torch. The higher the psi on your regulator, the more flow is allowed out of the tank to maintain that line pressure in the line. You relieve the line pressure by opening the valve on the torch. The regulator increases the flow of gas to build that pressure back up to the point you set.

The higher your psi (on tanks, not concentrators), the more gas you have available on demand and the more responsive your valves are (meaning that it takes less of a turn to make an adjustment). If your pressure is set too low, you won't have as much gas to feed your torch and the less responsive your valves will be (it takes more of a turn to make an adjustment).

When I suggest setting the psi on your fuel regulator (while your torch valve is closed) to about 5 psi higher than what you ultimately want it to be, that is because once you open that valve, the psi setting will tend to drift down a little bit. If you set it while the torch valve is open, it will stay pretty much where you set it, but then you will have an unattended torch running fuel while you are not there to attend to it and that is not the safest thing to do.

[clan tabby]

I always use the "poop" system with turning on/off at the torch. I've heard you don't have to with an oxycon, but since I still use torches attached to tanked O2 at the studio, I want to always have the "poop" habit. Heh.

I sent the one oxycon back to Paul this afternoon. It will take nearly a week to arrive, & then we'll see. I'll post whatever I find out after Paul looks at it.

In the meantime, I've still got the other oxycon to play with, so keep brainstorming & see if someone can come up with a cure.

[dichromary]

Hi Tabby, Have you tried the set up using tanked oxygen? It might be worth the rental cost to eliminate all other factors.

[clan tabby]

I'm skeered.

Actually, there are a couple of (other) reasons:
1) I can't lift the tanks these days without risk of injury.
2) Can't depend on my husband being out of work forever (please, Lord, no!)
3) I joked with someone about this when I 1st started thinking I might be able to set up a studio. I said I would paint the tanks like missiles & terrify my neighbors & landlord (yep, I rent). Then I would tell them they were really only O2 tanks & they'd be so relieved they wouldn't raise a stink about the danger. But I do think O2 tanks would be pushing the envelope just a tad, as a renter.

But I'm also skeered.

[dichromary]

The tanks I used were only 30 cf and I can lift them. I think they even have smaller ones in Mapp canister size for pilots.

Another thought is if you get a chance to visit the Bay area, maybe you can bring your cricket. I also have quick connect. If the hoses are not too long, bring them too. We can hook them to my setup.

[clan tabby]

Thanks, Mary, for the offer! I'm not totally torchless. I've been bungling along with almost no O2, not realizing there was a problem, for a couple of months, so I suppose I can continue like that for a bit longer. Also, on Sundays there is often a local open studio. That is where I made my 1st bead(s) & I'm on pretty good terms with a Mini cc over there. But I so appreciate your generous offer! Maybe if I get down that way (doesn't happen too often) I will give you a shout beforehand to see if you would be around. But, I have to say, even though I try to pretend it's not a problem, I feel pretty embarrassed working around you experienced & professional lampworkers. Can I work under the table? Heh.

[Beckah]

If you look in your yellow pages for oxygen-medical, you'll find your local companies that service oxycons that are used in medical situations. Sometimes they'll help test your equipment and other times they won't. But it may be worth calling around to see if they will test your oxycons. Some folks have also gotten used oxycons from the durable medical goods folks. It seems to vary from state to state how helpful/not helpful the local medical goods companies will be.