Tube vs Rod Implosion [Archive]

Cornbread

2011-10-30, 9:56am

each will yield a little different of a look. I think rod implosions ultimately wind up looking deeper because the color is farther away from the lens of the glass. With tube implosions you can certainly get way more detail. But also with tube, you can implode with what I call a collapse (rather than implosion) or you can pull to a point in the back. For example, see the two pendants in the picture I am going to post in just a few moments.

Cornbread

2011-10-30, 10:06am

both of these pendants were made using a 20mmx2mm tube using the same colors.

The one on the left is what i call a collapse. You basically heat the whole dotted section at once collapsing and condensing the glass in to your typical tube pendant shape. But you can see you have dots rather than "petals" It does implode a bit, but you can still see a separation between the dots.

The one on the right is your typical floral implosion that has been pulled to a point in the back. I got my bubble a little thin when i applied the dots which is why the bottom "petals" have black tips on the them. You just focus the heat from the farthest point of the bubble away from your hand and slowly condense and implode the bubble working your way down each row of dots. It will eventually come to a point in the back on its own.

Both of these are a little sloppy because I was doing a public demonstration recently and just wanted to show the technique more so than show a final product (which was for sale right next to me, ha)

But again, I think the biggest difference to me would be thickness of the lens and depth. tube implosions have shallower lenses because the color is much closer towards the surface. Rods start with a nice amount of glass from the get-go because of the maria.

hope this helps you a bit. It helped me too because it made me think a little bit more about what's actually going on. thanks

jb

Bunyip

2011-10-30, 12:08pm

Tube and rod implosions have very different looks, though one thing I've noticed is that with tubing implosions you can get a look that is similar to a rod implosion, but not so much the other way around.

The primary benefits of tubing implosions then are versatility and a (much) higher level of detail possible. The primary benefits of rod implosions are ease and speed, and a thicker 'natural' lens.

Don't forget that you can add a lens to any tubing implosion if you want more depth. In fact, that's one of the keys to the versatility of the method. You can also speed things up with tubing implosions by working smaller (and thus faster) and lensing them. Just heat up some clear and melt it to the front of the piece. You will have a join line on the sides, and if you don't heat it enough there will be a shimmery plane between the lens and the piece but that can be worked around :)

My .02 anyway.

Cornbread

2011-10-30, 2:11pm

nate-d

2011-10-30, 2:43pm

nate-d

2011-10-30, 2:45pm

Wow, under my name says 'senior member' now. LOL I hope no one thinks I know what I'm talking about.

Bunyip

2011-10-31, 4:56am

Nate -

#1 - The pointy teeth implosions result from the way you place your dots and the way you melt the piece in. If I recall correctly, you get points if you don't blow a big bubble, and then focus the heat more on the side, rather than the end of your piece. I always have to re-discover how to do the pointy ones when I want to do a couple, but when I first tried the tech that was all I could get.

For non-pointy dots, try watching the following videos. Click on the LE link, and watch the one on blowing a bubble first if you're unsure about your technique there. I also I posted this elsewhere, so it's in quotes - it's an excellent tutorial, either as a refresher or for someone just learning:

...here's a great FREE resource on tubing implosions and designs, you might want to watch this video by Brent "Mr. Smiley" Graber.

Link to post on LE: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138695

Direct Link to Video: http://vimeo.com/6303406

I think you will find yourself having many interesting insights. I know I did. If you're not sure about pulling the point and blowing the bubble for your tubing implosion he has a brief demo of that posted as well.

#2 - You can change that title under your user settings. If you don't live in Tamarac, you're not a "senior" in my book.

nate-d

2011-10-31, 6:50am

Thanks! I'll check out the vids.

LarryC

2011-10-31, 8:01am

All of my tube implosions tend to have pointy teeth-like tips, which I think of as an advantage because I can't get them on the rod; now I'm thinking my pointy teeth might be from personal difficulties. I didn't know that you can get the nice rounded 'rodlike' petals from tube implosions. I only tried dots on the tube, haven't tried lines yet.

This is all dependent on technique, though. I would think ANY difference in result between the two could be compensated for with changes and improvements in technique. Want more detail in your rod implosions? Learn to apply the initial detail finer. Want more lens on the tubes? Learn to condense and lens cleaner and thicker. Thoughts? By the way for me this was one area where aside from initial setup, vids did not do much for my progress. Subtle changes in heat, angle, etc. make huge changes in the outcome and these are hard to observe.

Bunyip

2011-10-31, 10:03am

Want more detail in your rod implosions? Learn to apply the initial detail finer. Want more lens on the tubes? Learn to condense and lens cleaner and thicker.

Gotta partially disagree with that. Differences in technique certainly can improve your outcome in those departments, but surface area means an awful lot. Simple geometry tells us that a bubble will have approximately twice the workable area that maria of similar radius would have, and you can much more easily go large with bubbles than with a maria. Going bigger than 1.5-2" maria is kind of a pain.

Cornbread

2011-10-31, 10:07am

Going bigger than 1.5-2" maria is kind of a pain.

I've been wanting to try to do some tube implosion marbles. The only way I can get any kind of a sizable marble is with a maria about 3" and to get any depth out of it you have to make sure it's as flat as possible. But I need to pick up some bigger tubing in heavywall.

LarryC

2011-10-31, 10:25am

Gotta partially disagree with that. Differences in technique certainly can improve your outcome in those departments, but surface area means an awful lot. Simple geometry tells us that a bubble will have approximately twice the workable area that maria of similar radius would have, and you can much more easily go large with bubbles than with a maria. Going bigger than 1.5-2" maria is kind of a pain.

I routinely go up to or over 2" across for the initial setup on my rod implosions without any pain or discomfort :) Again, this is based on technique. Kabuki gets a huge amount of very fine distinct detail in his rod compressions (implosions). I think this is way overstated.

J.Meader

2011-10-31, 12:12pm

What size tubing do you prefer for implosions? and why?

Bunyip

2011-10-31, 12:15pm

LarryC

2011-10-31, 1:18pm

Obviously, rod compressions (implosions) are more suitable to some things, like John Kobuki-style work, and tubing is more suitable for others...so I guess I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure what your argument is though - if you work very fine on a 3" diameter maria, you end up with about 7 square inches of surface area. With a 3" diameter bubble you get about 14 inches of area to work with. Why not work fine there too?

Because as you condense that 14 inches down you end up losing a lot of that fine detail because you have to heat the bubble enough to condense. With a solid maria you can't work as fine but you heat the face less so more detail is actually retained on the rod. In my experience it is often a wash and it just comes down to which technique you are more comfortable with. Is there anything you can do with one and NOT the other that you are aware of?

cheng076

2011-11-01, 11:35am

Never been able to blow out the maria...

LOL!!

Bunyip

2011-11-01, 11:59am

^^ LOL! (you can do it though. stuff npuff, cheng. I bet you could do a compression-style stuff n puff!)

To each his own, Larry. I can see that you're ready to defend your position to the death here, while I'm just discussing the relative merits of each technique and how they affect my preferences. Both work. Both have different strengths and weaknesses. All I know is that I find working on a bubble is more versatile and that it's a lot easier to for me than a maria because I can leave twice as much space between elements and achieve the same level of detail even if I use larger design elements.

And sure - there are designs that only possible (or at least only easily possible) using one technique or the other. Do what works best.

LarryC

2011-11-01, 12:24pm

I am thinking this went right by you. just looking for some discussion that comes from personal experience and observation.

Cornbread

2011-11-01, 12:42pm

Larry what do you mean you lose detail in a bubble? the wash out? I'm trying to figure out what that means exactly.

LarryC

2011-11-01, 1:41pm

Larry what do you mean you lose detail in a bubble? the wash out? I'm trying to figure out what that means exactly.

Yup. I have to heat the bubble on a tube setup to condense much hotter than I typically heat the face of the maria on a rod implosion. I think that "wash out" is a good term for it. I am by no means an expert on any of this :) Just trying to get a better understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of each.

Cornbread

2011-11-01, 1:43pm

are you saying the color disappears?

LarryC

2011-11-01, 2:09pm

are you saying the color disappears?

Nope. Just softens and I lose a lot of detail.

Cornbread

2011-11-01, 3:09pm

ahh ok. I get what you're saying. well...I guess it just depends on the look you're going for. I've never really thought I lost detail in a tube implosion because I've known what to expect. When i draw something on a bubble I know it's going to be pulled to a real tight space and a big circle will actually look like a tiny circle. or for dots - same thing. For rod implosions, what you draw on the maria is almost exactly what you get. When I want certain style pendant, I can only get that style with a maria and visa-versa with a tube.

I don't think you necessarily lose any detail in a tube implosion, I think it just makes whatever you draw/dot/scribble, much smaller.

The big difference here in the debate I think would be the terminology. "Detail" is not really a relevant term for both sides of the debate. Larry is correct about detail - what you draw is what you get when it comes to marias. For Chris- I think the correct term would be "information". how much information you can draw on a maria as opposed to a tube. The winner is clearly a tube...but detail is up for interpretation of the artist. If you want a 100 dot implosion, you better have an enormous maria or a regular sized tube. Most would opt for the tube. But if you want 5 nice big dots to implode for a flower of some sorts, a maria would be best because you'd have to cover a ton of space on the bubble to get only 5 dots to fill the whole pendant with color.

I think Larry is correct and Chris is correct. Both are defending different terminology to describe benefits of one over the other.

I may have not said that in the clearest and best possible way. But i just want to make sure that everyone understands that "detail" and "information" are not the same thing...even though they sound like it.

LarryC

2011-11-01, 3:24pm

I think Larry is correct and Chris is correct. Both are defending different terminology to describe benefits of one over the other.

I may have not said that in the clearest and best possible way. But i just want to make sure that everyone understands that "detail" and "information" are not the same thing...even though they sound like it.

I think your interpretation is 100% :)

Bunyip

2011-11-01, 4:20pm

I'll go with that too. I like the information comparison. One qualification, the less you implode your bubbles, the less things get pulled. That frogspawn look is a good example.

I am thinking this went right by you. just looking for some discussion that comes from personal experience and observation.

probably did, and I thought that's what we were doing. Text can be awkward at times for communication.

torchgirl

2011-11-01, 7:32pm

Wow thank you all so very much for the detailed explaination. I need to make a few w/same color and dots, trying to put heat different place to see different results. I do like the "tooth" pointed in effect and did that once but wasn't really sure how I got it. Very helpful information!

istandalone24/7

2012-08-10, 4:21am

"and if you don't heat it enough there will be a shimmery plane between the lens and the piece but that can be worked around "

HOW? every time i joint a backing on a boro lens of some sort i get a shimmery irredescence that looks like crap, and no matter how hot i get them before joining i get the same effect.
any ideas? am i just not getting both halfs hot enough?

Bunyip

2012-08-10, 7:23am

The hotter the lens and the art are before being joined, the better.

You can work around it, as noted, usually by making sure that the viewing angle is as close as perpendicular to the plane of the join. Building up a border at the join and further up the lens is one way to do this, so that you have to look straight in to the marble to see the art.

Or just join 'em white, almost liquid hot, and minimize issues.

LarryC

2012-08-10, 10:21am

For me there are a few things that are critical to NOT getting the join line. Be sure the two lenses are spotlessly clean at the start and that there is not fumed residue from applied colors etc. Also be sure to join them reasonably hot, not screaming hot, but then heat the whole mass to molten uniform heat after joining them. As I make a marble, depending on how many discreet steps there are to the design, I bring the whole thing up to full uniform heat between the steps. That keeps additions and joins from showing later on. I really do not end up making marbles from two halves that often. Most designs I make are done with rod so they dont need a separate lens to be added.

istandalone24/7

2012-08-10, 11:34am

gotcha, makes sense to have them the same heat (roughly), and somewhat hot.
my issue came from having one side almost molten, and the other barely glowing. i'm a soft glass refugee if you haven't noticed :)

LarryC

2012-08-10, 11:50am

istandalone24/7

2012-08-10, 3:52pm

yea ane the next best is coming to a nice welcoming open forum like this, to talk about it.
not just say "use the search function" and "just experiment".
i did and i do. but making posts like this and asking questions (that other newbies might search upon and find later) is what this forum is here for. ;)

menty666

2012-08-10, 9:25pm

I think the key to avoiding the UTFSE trap is to put in the effort first. Try it out, then do a search, then come ask an intelligent question that couldn't necessarily be easily found in the search.

Here and on the melting pot, people are a lot more receptive if you can tell first what you tried and didn't work first instead of just asking, "how's it done?"

istandalone24/7

2012-08-11, 3:16am

Best way to learn is to do and to experiment ON YOUR OWN. A lot :)

you know, i hate to sound like an asshole so early in the am, (i just had to edit one whole paragraph from my implosion thread due to a similar response) but this forum IS FOR DISCUSSING GLASS/TECHS/ETC. it's NOT just to tell people to practice.

i'm NOT trying to get around doing my due diligence. i'm simply sparking discussion about subjects that i need to know more about, subjects i've researched extensively and am now just asking a few questions that i could not find the answer for myself.

larry, if you or anyone else's answer to me or any of my questions is just "practice" (which by def isn't an answer) ((i can see if i was opening threads that have been beat to death....i'm not)) or use the search function....just don't post.

again i'm very sorry for sound like such a jerk so early, but after all why the hell are we here if it isn't to spark convo?

i guess i'm expecting too much by way of speaking with like minded people.

istandalone24/7

2012-08-11, 3:17am

and if it's someting a newb keeps asking/posting, how about a mod around here actually do something worth while and make a sticky with said info? precious few of those around (stickies).

menty666

2012-08-11, 7:06am

I think we'd do well with a sticky that explains how to use the search function.

Having said that... There is certainly a problem as a newbie of learning the lingo, and that does make it tough to search. Frankly the search function vBulletin comes with sucks and I have better luck going out to google:

"my search term" site:lampworketc.com

Say you're looking for help with the implosion technique. First week behind a torch and you're supposed to know that term? Of course not. You see a pretty flower in a marble. But you knew enough to find this forum (or others...)

So use the search to look for "flower" and "marble" Stare blankly at the hundreds of results that show up and poke a head into a few, you'll likely find "implosion" or "compression"

You're new, so you think implosion's the wrong term, so you search for "compression" and find a bunch of advice on sprains from the Family Room.

Go back to page 42 and search for implosion.

Now you're on to something.

And on and on.

I feel your pain though, try coming up with words like fillachello, reticello, and all of the wacky spellings.

Keep at it though, you'll get it.

Cornbread

2012-08-11, 7:58am

i forgot how awesome this thread was. the first page of discussion is an excellent clarification of detail vs information on rod and tube implosions.

LarryC

2012-08-11, 3:44pm

you know, i hate to sound like an asshole so early in the am

Hmmm. Way too late for that.

istandalone24/7

2012-08-11, 11:53pm

don't care. forum to spark discussion, member likes to just say practice , comes off like a prick. its a natural progression.

todda

2012-08-18, 12:21pm

pratice makes perfect

istandalone24/7

2012-08-19, 2:58am

lol.

khan

2012-09-12, 8:08am

Bunyip

2012-09-12, 10:23am

Because as you condense that 14 inches down you end up losing a lot of that fine detail because you have to heat the bubble enough to condense. With a solid maria you can't work as fine but you heat the face less so more detail is actually retained on the rod. In my experience it is often a wash and it just comes down to which technique you are more comfortable with. Is there anything you can do with one and NOT the other that you are aware of?

I still disagree with a lot of this, (it's all in how you work the bubble) but in the intervening months since this post, I've been doing some maria *cough* compressions *cough* implosions *cough* (kobuki-esque orchids for example) and one thing that maria implosions seem well suited for that is more difficult on tubing implosions (well I don't know if it's even possible, I haven't tried it yet) is multiply layered implosions... and the maria technique seems better suited to 'spreading' petals and leaves out as well.

gmkcpa

2012-09-12, 10:59am

Hey!! Istandalone - Can Istandnexttoyou?

LarryC

2012-09-12, 12:12pm

I still disagree with a lot of this, (it's all in how you work the bubble) but in the intervening months since this post, I've been doing some maria *cough* compressions *cough* implosions *cough* (kobuki-esque orchids for example) and one thing that maria implosions seem well suited for that is more difficult on tubing implosions (well I don't know if it's even possible, I haven't tried it yet) is multiply layered implosions... and the maria technique seems better suited to 'spreading' petals and leaves out as well.

We can agree to disagree :) I think the answer is different based on technique and how it is applied so it will vary person to person. I am self taught on the torch and havent really worked with a lot of folks yet so my exposure to other styles of working is quite narrow. At some point, it is all about the results and the technique used to get there is irrelevant. I have done multi layer florals on tube so it is possible. When I have done them I punty a few times to reverse the working surface and then it is very similar to working on rod from that point on.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-13, 1:16am

you see, THIS is what i was hoping to foster....good discussion. bunyip and larryc, thank you so much for contributing!
gmkcpa....you could...but then i wouldn't be alone anymore!! but that's ok....you can't guess how many people pm me (here and on other forums) who tell me how "pretentious" my username is and how nobody should ever be "alone".
i then proceed to tell them it's the name of a song by Godsmack, not how like to spend my time lol.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-13, 1:19am

I TOTALLY agree with you Istandalone.... the place is for discussion and if someone doesnt want to discuss something because they have discussed it before, even several times, then they dont even have to open the thread.
Its real simple.
Khan

while i do agree that if it's a topic that comes up once a month, then maybe a thread about it isn't such a good idea (well maybe a better idea would be to make a sticky about it) but yes in general, the people who post "just use the search" or "this has been covered 100000 times you stupid newb" are just posting so they can flex their E-muscles. it's internet dick sizing, no more no less. i actually get a good laugh at these people.

Bunyip

2012-09-13, 5:27am

...actually, "UTFSE" is simple internet self-preservation. Similar to "RTFM" it spares both beginners and veterans alike from being buried in innumerable inane posts which have already been covered elsewhere (and often ad nauseum), and leaves room for interesting conversation and useful information... and if you question that, go look on any extremely busy and popular forum (popular video games are a good example). You'll see how fast EVERYTHING gets buried - with the worst offenders being people who didn't RTFM and can't be bothered to UTFSE.

While I question the utility of immediately resorting to that same methodology in the current setting - for any veteran user the constant repetition of the same easily (and already) answered questions can certainly wear on the mind. I think it's just as pointless and rude, however, to scornfully write off a phenomenon you may not clearly or fully understand as "internet dick-sizing", or to use a colorful phrase I prefer, "stroking one's e-peen".

;)

Bunyip

2012-09-13, 5:35am

I have done multi layer florals on tube so it is possible. When I have done them I punty a few times to reverse the working surface and then it is very similar to working on rod from that point on.

See, at that point you've transitioned into a sort of multi-phase hybrid. In fact, I like your style ;) ...and I agree, it IS all about the results in the end. Often we get too tied up in arbitrary frames of reference and forget that there are many paths up the mountain.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-13, 2:29pm

but that is where stickies would come in to play, but the admin/mods don't seem to like to use them too much.

...actually, "UTFSE" is simple internet self-preservation. Similar to "RTFM" it spares both beginners and veterans alike from being buried in innumerable inane posts which have already been covered elsewhere (and often ad nauseum), and leaves room for interesting conversation and useful information... and if you question that, go look on any extremely busy and popular forum (popular video games are a good example). You'll see how fast EVERYTHING gets buried - with the worst offenders being people who didn't RTFM and can't be bothered to UTFSE.

While I question the utility of immediately resorting to that same methodology in the current setting - for any veteran user the constant repetition of the same easily (and already) answered questions can certainly wear on the mind. I think it's just as pointless and rude, however, to scornfully write off a phenomenon you may not clearly or fully understand as "internet dick-sizing", or to use a colorful phrase I prefer, "stroking one's e-peen".

;)

Bunyip

2012-09-13, 4:41pm

This board is largely unmoderated, as a consequence of the reason for it's founding, I suspect.

menty666

2012-09-16, 8:20am

...and if they stuck everything people asked for, you'd wade through three pages of sticky threads before you got to new stuff.

Better would be to stick a thread with a how to on using the search box.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-16, 11:47am

that's a bit of an exaggeration.

menty666

2012-09-16, 2:19pm

No, no it's not. I've been here long enough I see most of the "we should pin this" calls. Three pages is most certainly understating things. Though I suppose it depends on how many posts per page you're set up to see.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-16, 3:08pm

whatever. forums are for discussion. bottom line. if people don't like the topic of the thread, all they have to do is not reply.
that's easier for everyone involved, instead of resorting to "utfsf" and the ensuing nonsense that almost always follows.

menty666

2012-09-16, 4:21pm

"Whatever" indeed. But lazy and disrespectful newbies are why so many experienced glass workers often move on from the forums because SO many people come in expecting to have things handed to them on a silver platter without first doing a little research or experimentation on their own.

The irony is that often a lot of the information the old crowd gained and shared is available if you UTFSE.

But yes, whatever. Ask the same question over and over and over and over. Stick around long enough, you'll see the same questions come up about once every six months or so. "How do I do an implosion?" "Why can't I work amber purple?" "What torch should I buy?"

So whatever.

Whatever did people do before they had forums where there was a wealth of information available to search for? They tried things and failed. They tried again and possibly failed. Then they succeeded. If you're lucky, they shared that information, but you wouldn't know that because you'd rather come in and ask the same question again rather than looking to see if it's already been asked over and over again. Yet for some reason you then get upset when someone suggests you do the research or experimentation yourself.

But, you know, whatever.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-16, 4:33pm

it's not lazy and disrespectful to want to foster discussion. sorry you think that way. you must be a blast at parties.

James Lewis

2012-09-16, 7:52pm

Okay enough fighting this isnt the pot. They have cage matches for this kind of thing.

Yes new people should search alot more than ask. The older crowd also needs to calm down just leave a quick reply saying search instead of blowing sky high like a child not getting the cookie before dinner. Leave a little tip something small.

The stickies how about a thread is made that answers all the questions a new person normally has. Implosions,heat control, flame types, torch types, pipes and tubing, fuming. Hell set it up so they cant veiw anything else till the go into the sticky and go through all of it. Then we will see whos worth the time and not. Ive only been doing glass for close to a year on and off. So no one might listen to a newb like me but at least im trying to solve this problem with kind words and advice rather then screaming and yelling at the new people. Everyone thats "experinced" might think im full of shit. But at the same time you guys are just like teachers in elementry. Asked the same question a thousand times and answer it the same then watch as your students grow and mature and become adults. Knowing that you helped them get there even if it was just by explaining why 2+2=4. So dont get mad at them their new and most if the time dont understand the system we all go by. But what does it matter to the "seniors" im just a freshman.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-17, 3:50am

and when it comes down to it, it's the vets who are saying "utfsf" and then all the ensuing bullsh!t is what clogs up the forums.

so actually, it's the certain vets bullsh!t that causes the forums to get clogged up with the bs that menty666 was talking about and accusing the newbs of.

the melting pot is one shining example of this. the newbs over there are treated like horse manure until they have enough "rep" to fit into the clique.

and i'll say it again, especially for menty666, bunyip and the rest of the offenders (that clogged up my thread with the exact crap they were bitching about) if you don't like the thread, stay away from it. easy peasy.

it's a forum, it's for discussion. maybe you vets would only like to see one new thread every week about some insane techs that newbs like me don't care about.

also maybe if we did actually have some moderators here would could get a subforum for those vets, where they would not have to be bothered by newbness.

lastly, if any of you get bent out of shape about this, i advise you to go soak your head. this is the internet after all. not the coffee shop down the street, not a bar, not your friends house. we ALL have a right to be here, whether we're new at this or not.

i'm done on this subject. if the discussion wants to go back to the TOPIC OF THE THREAD then fine. if not i'll just not reply again.

so congrats, vets. you've managed to accomplish what you were bitching about ME doing.

Bunyip

2012-09-17, 5:40am

While I may have "clogged" your thread, it was with a helpful spirit, offering a different viewpoint which you appeared you hadn't considered - while also agreeing with you that it was probably unwarranted under these current circumstances. On the other hand, what I see is that you've initiated or participated in multiple personal attacks on people who are more or less just trying to help, and here you are, at it again. If this is a forum, and it's for discussion, perhaps it would be important to discuss... rather than, y'know, going for the old jugular anytime someone expresses a view you disagree with.

...and Mike, another thing to remember is that when YOU "discuss" something, people are going to discuss back. It's a forum! Don't open doors if you're gonna be upset when people walk through them.

In the meantime, please accept my apologies for further clogging your thread. Feel free to not respond. Or even to attack me. <shrug> It's just text...and text is a poor medium for communication. I'm sure in person we'd get along just fine. As a matter of fact, my Dad lives in Brattleboro so that's definitely a possibility. Froze my ass off on Mount Snow last time I was there on a fine -10 degree day at the summit... I won't start on the comparisons to West Coast mountains - but I don't get many opportunities to ski in FL so I dealt with it ;)

PS: Sometimes "practice" IS the only answer.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-17, 6:06am

and i appoligize...i'm not trying to make enemies here it just seems sometimes some of the vets are hard on the newbs.

most of that i think is due to it's so hard to gauge intent and emotion in text.
hugs all around.

istandalone24/7

2012-09-17, 6:07am

i was just trying to make the point that the bs that's generated due to all the bitching is causing the exact problem "utfsf" is trying to negate ;)

istandalone24/7

2012-09-17, 6:11am

one last thing i wanted to add is that we're all here to help each other...not the other way around.
that's why i feel so strongly on this.
that and in most forums, when a newb asks what may be perceived as a stupid/easy to search for question, they're labels as lazy and not wanting to do their homework and practice.

Bunyip

2012-09-17, 6:28am

Gotcha... I'll try to keep that in mind in your case, but umm... tone it down a little maybe?

And agreed:
that and in most forums, when a newb asks what may be perceived as a stupid/easy to search for question, they're labels as lazy and not wanting to do their homework and practice.

Which is why I typically post some links to specific posts which have covered the topic in question, and then suggest that searches might be fruitful (sometimes posting a link to a search with relevant keywords if possible, or at least suggesting same), rather than being immediately dismissive. It rapidly becomes clear who is and is not doing their homework that way.

Ok. That dead horse is a finely pulped pudding. We can move on now :)

istandalone24/7

2012-09-17, 8:56am

bunyip i never meant to offend you or anyone else for sure....you're def one of the most helpful people here.

KJJames

2012-09-17, 12:44pm

I just wanted to to let you know too that you can save threads that you find helpful by subscribing to them. Once you've done that, you can separate them into folders under User CP. You may already know this, but I'm mentioning it because I didn't realize I could do this for quite some time! How long...let's just say trees could have been saved had I learned this sooner :)