No oxy tanks for 2 weeks, I'm rethinking gen or concentrator?

[Tutti-frutti]

I am so bummed :sad: that I havent had a delivery from my supplier of tanked Oxygen, that I would like your honest opinions about having a genereator or concentrator to use and does the flame really flactuate like I 've been hearing.
And if you could also tell me the model and what about electricity bills. besides running a kiln any ideas??
My torch is a National M 8. And I can use it to melt boro on tanked oxy, but really never use boro that often. so mainly softglass.

Thanks
Katja

[sleekbeads]

Hi. This isn't advice, but I will tell you what I'm on.

I'm running a mini cc with a 20lb propane tank and a devilbiss oxycon I bought from Justin L. I'm completely satisfied with my set-up not only for softglass but for boro also. I will probably be upgrading torches in the spring, but I have been very happy with my set-up thus far.
I rarely have fluctuation flame. Really.. never notice it at all.
My electric bill.. I've never noticed anything.
I hate 02 tanks and am a big baby and am afraid to have them around...
Like I said, not advising, but you asked so I thought I'd tell you my positive experience.

Good luck,

Jo

[Imelt4U]

I'm working on a minor.... and I have a refurbished oxy concentrator I bought on ebay. It's just a 5 lpm unit but It works great for me... no flucuation of the flame except when the propane is starting to go. I do boro beads on it even! I've had it for over two years now. I love it so much that when I had the chance to get another, at a good price, I grabbed it up. Now, if the one I'm using needs another refurbishing... I'll have a backup!

I understand you can run two units at once for bigger torches. Or get one with a higher lpm. I have a friend that runs bigger torches with a 15 lpm.... and another who runs a 20 lpm. I don't think they EVER have to turn them up more than half way... and they've both been very happy with them.

[FordGirlGoneBad]

I'm somewhat of a newby (started in late May this year) and I just couldn't deal with the safety issues of having tanked oxygen around my house, so I got a great deal on a refurb'd oxycon from Justin at OxygenPlus. I swear, it arrived in two days, I plugged it in and started torching. I'm on a minor and have had no issue with fluctuations -- at 5lpm I have no trouble at all and actually don't usually set it at max. I use COE104.

[kbinkster]

Here's the scoop on fluctuation...

Oxygen concentrators work on the principal of Pressure Swing Adsorbtion. This process uses a cannister or bed of a special material that mechanically sifts the different molecules in air and seperates them. This cannister or bed is commonly called the seive bed, because it sifts out the molecules like a seive.

Here are two excellent sources complete with diagrams that explain the process in more technical detail:
http://www.onsitegas.com/psa.asp
http://www.sequal.com/atfpressureswing.htm

The oxygen that is collected in the seive bed is then purged into a storage tank. On the small medical units, this is an internal tank.

OK, now, all of the oxygen concentrators out there that I know of, with the exception of the ones made by SeQual using their patented ATF technology, use two seive beds to get a more consistent flow of oxygen into the storage tank. However, they do not purge into the tank at the same time and there is a slight delay between when one bed empties into the storage tank and when the other one does. Does this cause a noticable change in anything? Well, sometimes yes and sometimes no.

How hard you push your torch determines how quickly you will empty that internal storage tank. If you have a larger torch that uses more oxygen or if you run your small torch so hard that you empty the tank, you will notice the brief lapse between the two seive beds purging. The result is a fluctuation in the flame commonly called "breathing."

To combat this breathing, an additional external storage tank can be added. But, again, once that tank is emptied, you are back to the same old problem. How soon you empty an external storage tank depends upon how big your torch is and how hard you push it.

Now, if you are running two machines in tandem, each machine will still have a pause, but they will not likely be at the exact same time. So, you won't have the pronounced "breathing" at the torch.

I hope this makes sense.:)

[loco]

I use tanked Oxygen. I also did have 3 concentrators hooked togeather when I was using my mini cc. Notice I said DID? I found the concentrators painful and sold them. If your looking for a back up to tanked, I would go with an M15 or better yet an M20. I was able to try a 15 psi machine on a mini cc and it was just OK.

Please realize I love to work very hot so take my opinion for what it's worth.

[kbinkster]

At 15 psi and 10 LPM, the Mini CC should have run like it was on tanked oxygen.

[Tutti-frutti]

Thank you very much for taking time to reply.
Today still no delivery, that makes my decision for quitting the tanked oxy easier.

Katja

[Feldt's Glass]

No one will deliver tanks to me. We live in the country so... I have a lynx that I run on one or two concentrators depending on what I am doing. I Have two OG15's from OGSI. When I am doing small to medium sized beads pulling stringer fine detail work ect. I only run one. When I am working large beads, encasing, hollow work and boro I have both on. I know that seems like over kill but one just limited me so much on what I can do. (Keep in mind acording to most one should have been just fine, but not to me. I wanted it to be as close to tanked oxy as possibe, and with two it is.) I also plan on purchasing a barracuda next year, and hope to be able to run both with it as well. I found these used on ebay. They did need work done but both cost less than half of the OG20. If you want to go the concentrator route get the best you can afford. If you want a really good flame close to what tanked oxy is you need much more than a medical unit could ever give. I will say though if I only did small to med sized beads and no boro I wouldn't have gotten two, I just wouldn't need both of them.

[Bubba]

It appears that generators or concentrators (single or tandem) work for mini-cc, minors, etc. Phantom or Mid-Range? What is the recommended setup for these?

Also how noisy are generators? I never read anyone that complains about noise.

Also is there a big difference noticed between a generator and concentrator?

[Feldt's Glass]

Bubba,
The two I have are "generators" but most people refer to them as concentrators. They are loud. I can hear if something tinks but I have to really pay attention. As far as I can tell the largest I could go is the barracuda but sence I don't have one yet I don't know exactly how it will perform. When I check with the manufacturer it was said that they would run at about 75-80%. That still would be a larger flame size than I have with the lynx. I really think I would be using tanks if I could get them delivered where I live. The two OG15's work now but was a big deal to get them working and set up. They were used and my boyfriend had to take them appart and fix issues. Little leaks new beds that sort of thing. They are also rare so I had to wait until I could find the second one. Then again there is the cost if you go to big you will pay more than if you us tanked oxy. I would love to know if someone out there is using a larger torch with a generator!!!!!!!!

[kbinkster]

Concentrators and generators are basically the same thing. They work on the same principals. Concentrators are usually self-contained in a cabinet and generators are not - they require an outside air compressor to run them (like the On-Site Pro Series that I sell). Because of this, they are much noisier (bigger external compressor = more noise). There are some concentrators out there that are called generators by their manufacturer, probably to make the distinction that they industrial in nature and are not intended for medical use like most concentrators are.

I have an Integra10 and a Regalia. They are very quiet machines. While the Regalia is an industrial unit, not a medical one, it still has the same insulation in the cabinet as the medical units do to keep the noise level in the studio down. I will soon be doing some testing on the Phantom to see what running one unit on the inner fire and one unit on the outer fire will be like.