Alpha or bobcat?
 

Hi everyone! I am looking at moving over to the "dark side" after 3 years of working the soft stuff! So time for a torch upgrade (currently on an aging minor) my budget has me looking at either a Beth Alpha or a GTT Bobcat, initially it would be run on one oxy con, upgrading to 2 oxys in 6 months or so. I am hoping your collective boro brilliance will help me pick which one would be better!
I should probably say I'm looking at working on small sculpture, pendants and mostly marbles!
TIA :smile:

I love the alpha as the centerfire on my bravo, perfect for anything from small pinpoint flames to >1" boro marbles. It's a pretty forceful toasty flame on tanked oxy at low psi.

I do have some trouble with silver glass and I sometimes wonder if that is due to the orange center jet on the alpha which seems to be not really mixed with oxygen as well as the blue outer jets. Haven't ever asked Bethlehem about it though so it's probably just my inexperience.

Interesting, I have an alpha and am just starting to work through the silver glass I have. Might be my inexperience too, but what trouble are you finding? Is it with striking?

I do think it is a great torch, and you can really adjust the flame well.

difficult to keep things from reducing actually. I can get things like striking color to strike but never with vibrant colors always muted and raku like. The reduction colors tend to go to browns and yellows much too rapidly.

The single center cone is supposed to remain orange right even in oxidizing/neutral flame? assume so but I havent seen a video or anyone else's alpha.
http://www.bethlehemburners.com/wp-c...a-face-500.jpg

Also, its worth mentioning that this torch doesn't throw off a lot of ambient heat. I can work with my fingers literally millimeters from the torch flame. This is both awesome and challenging. Small sweet spots for stringer control but can do really fine placement of heat when it is needed in a certain spot. This is not a wide bushy flame even when opened up a bit. So if you are making multiple disc beads on the same mandrel for instance, I start to have real problems maintaining base heat once I get past about 3/4"-1" wide.

I hadn't heard about the orange bit, but I have noticed some orange with my own flame. Worried me at first, nice to know that is normal.

In my opinion, if you want to do that type of work with boro, you will want a two stage torch. The Bethlehem Bravo($800) is amazing and works great for this. I am selling a lightly used bobcat because I want to make pendants and marbles and small sculptures without it taking 45-60 minutes to make things no bigger than an 1" (solid).

That is so exciting to try a different glass! Boro is wonderful, but so slow in a small flame when trying to make a gather. Unless you have an 8lpm oxycon for a bobcat, I wouldn't bother getting a different torch until you can afford one that won't frustrate you within a month working boro. (I have my suspicions that a bobcat on tanked oxygen would be a completely different animal;p )

For what you want to make I would suggest a Lynx at minimum and preferably tanked oxygen. Working Boro takes patience.

Thanks for your input everyone! I wish I could justify buying a bravo, but since i live in the uk the only supplier of them here sells them at £900, that's over $1400 US! To be honest the torch selection here is not brilliant, I will see if I can track down a lynx as I know of a few people who work amazing boro on them! Also I physically can't have tanked oxy so I have to run on concentrators, would 2 be enough for a lynx?
I don't mind the fact that boro will take longer to work really, and extra 30 mins to make say a marble compared to 104 where I could spend half an hour making it for me then to accidentally let it cool for a few seconds too long and, crack! Time and glass wasted!

Yes lynx can be run from concentrators

Can't you mail order one from here?

I could, but with shipping and import duties/tax it will still bump the price up to around $1200! And to be honest I don't know yet if I will make the jump over to boro completely, so I think I should start small with a torch that I won't feel like I am wasting if I still end up doing majority soft glass!
I found a supplier for the Lynx in Europe (no surprise it's ore expensive than in the US again!) so I will definitely keep that in mind as a next step from the alpha or bobcat! I can't seem to make a firm decision between the 2 yet! I keep thinking I have then I read something about one or the other and change my mind again :roll: my current thinking if I plan on possibly getting a lynx maybe I should start with a GTT and get the feel for them?

You might want to check on some UK forums, such as FritHappens, I think they are mostly soft glass, not sure if anyone does boro but for the type of torch you are looking for you might be able to get one that is used.

I worked boro on 2 5lpm oxycons and a bobcat for ages till I moved up to my scorpion

the lynx will not be a huge upgrade from a bobcat they are both 7 port torches, so they will have similar heat, now before any one jumps on me, the triple mix does allow for better striking and it gives you the ability to shape your flame profile more and a much wider range of flame chemistry and temp.
now between the alpha and the Bobcat the Alpha is a 6 port and the bobcat is a 7 port so it should run a bit hotter than the alpha which for boro is a good thing. I started on boro using a mega minor which is also a 7 port torch and I could do tubing work an some nice marbles. I love my GTT torch but you will not go wrong with a Bethlehem either.
I would ask your self what your next step would be in the future a Bravo or say Phantom, mirage ect. if you can answer that then buy the torch from the same manufacturer as the center of the bravo is an alpha and 7 port torch(lynx) is the center of the GTTs so your learning curve later on will be less

I've never used an alpha, but I've used a bravo centerfire, which is an alpha, and it's hotter than a bobcat. I bought a bobcat, used it a few times and sold it. I didn't find it to be much different than the minor except that it was probably a tiny bit bushier. I'm not convinced that you'd find it to be much of an upgrade.

I have used Bethlehem torches for 10 years, they all have a blue flame, no orange...or at least on my BBB and the Alpha, maybe you should have the torch serviced if the flame is orange, I have never heard of that. I can work Boro on the Alpha, fairly small so far, but I haven't turned up the concentrators yet to higher LPM. I have two M-15s I run with it. I use a lower LPM for soft glass. The thing I like about Bethlehem, and this could be true for others too, I'm not sure, but they can handle higher PSI, 20 is absolute max according to Bethlehem, I have never pushed any that far... but it handles 15 like a champ. I love Bethlehem torches! :)

I'd say the Lynx is the biggest upgrade from the minor of the one-stage torches that have been discussed in the thread. It allows for way more flame variance (bushy to pinpointy) than the others will. I would take one over the Bobcat any day, but it's pricier. The alpha is hotter and pinpointier than the minor and the Bobcat is a little bushier than the minor. (The Lynx can give you both.) You may not find any of them to be drastically hotter, though. The alpha, Bobcat, Cricket mini CC and minor are all in the same class of torches. I don't think there's really any more advantage to going from a Bobcat to a Lynx than an Alpha to a Lynx. The Lynx, because of the triple mix, is a different animal. Think about what type of flame you like best - that may give you the best idea of which torch you'd prefer if you're deciding between the Bobcat and the Alpha.

Regarding the orange center jet, I had a Piranha (the predecessor to the Alpha and centerfire of the Barracuda) that had some orange shooting out from the center jet and I know of someone who's Baraccuda had that (mine doesn't). I asked Bethlehem about it and they said it shouldn't affect the torch's functioning.

How well a Lynx will run on 2 oxycons will depend on what concentrators you use, but it's do-able.

Kristin, I've been a member of frit happens for almost 4 years, unfortunately the uk just doesn't have a very big boro community so these torches come up few and far between! A red max has just been posted this morning but I have no idea what one is so off to research!
Thanks everyone else for your input, I think I am going to go with the bobcat as GTT torches are much more available on this side of the pond and if I was to upgrade again they would be the easiest to get hold of! Also I think it will a step up from the minor, I have tried a cricket before and found it to be a lot hotter than my minor! (My glass ended up on the table lol!) I'll be sure to update this though once I have new torch and how I find it to be!

Alphas are much more oxygen friendly than Bobcats. They are made to be used with oxy cons. I tested the Alpha (center flame of the Bravo) and a Bobcat. On a M15, the Alpha is much hotter. Also the non triple mix GTT torches get carbon build up frequently especially running on oxy cons. Moreover, the flame is a little wider on the Alpha making it better on larger work.

The first generation of the Alphas had issues on not producing a completely neutral flame. Bethlehem had since fixed that problem. If you have trouble with reducing silver glass, contact Bethlehem.

A Lynx can only be truly efficient on two larger (8 lpm) oxycons such as m15 or ex15.

Hope this helps.

Easy
Love the Alpha
Hate the Bobcat

Hayley it's great to hear from someone who has experience working with both torches, thank you so much for your input! I'm glad you said the flame is wider on the alpha as I like to work quite "long" in soft glass so a wider flame is always an advantage to me!
Margriet, what is it you don't like about the bobcat?

If you can, I'd say get the second oxycon first, then the new torch, whichever it may be. Your minor will run better (you can turn it all the way up!) and you'll need the extra oxy to run the new torch like you want.

I got one of Martin's 10lpms - it is such a difference!

I experienced that I had to clean the bobcat VERY often, sometimes when I torching. The flame is very in stable, I had to correct it all the time.

Now I have the alpha. It is a very stable flame, works great on a concentrator and can set very hot.
Between the bobcat and the alpha I had a mini-cc, but the alpha is for me the best. I really love it!

I don't know how the Lynx compares with the Bobcat as I've not tried that one but I've worked on a lot of various torches (GTT and otherwise) and I feel that the triple-mix flame offers some unique advantages. The flame characteristics are markedly different from non triple-mix torches. The heat is more penetrating than the softer flames you may be used to with a minor burner and other torches, and it can speed certain processes up immensely as a result. Nice, smooth, melted-in marbles and pendants are so much nicer than lumpy misshapen masses of glass.

If you will be working primarily solid forms such as marbles and pendants, sculptures etc, my advice to any fledgling boro worker is to get a triple-mix torch such as a Lynx. If you have 2 8 LPM oxygen concentrators, that's close to ideal, however 2 5 LPM will work as well. Your flame will be more reducing than if you were on tanked, even if you set what appears to be an oxidizing flame, but you should be fine otherwise.

I've recently been building stock for a show, and I worked quite a bit on my Lynx (on ONE 5 LPM concentrator because the compressor died on the other) and it served me pretty well for smaller pieces. I switched over to the 'cuda (on tanked) for some larger pieces (dragon-eye pendants etc) and I missed the 'penetration', even with the much better overall heat available on tanked. My hands got a little cooked at times from radiant heat - something that doesn't seem to be as much of an issue on a triple mix unless you're working a rather large piece. Maybe it's subjective but...yeah. I like the Lynx better for solid - the jury's still out on hollow, but that's not really my forte at the moment anyway.

That being said, you can easily work borosilicate glass on a minor with a little patience provided you have enough oxygen (2 5 LPM concentrators). It's a very under-rated little torch. I've successfully made marbles, pendants and sculptures, even ornaments from tubing on a minor burner...and a cricket, for that matter. You'll want to work perhaps a bit smaller (3/4" to 1" marbles are probably the upper limit unless you're very patient), but it will do the job! Then you can save up for a more expensive torch..

And that's my other piece of advice: Always get MORE torch than you think you will need. Trust me you will find a use for the extra heat ;) Worst case scenario, you can sell the torch for most of what you paid for it if it's too much for you. (At least here in the US you can).

My minor is about knackered Heather! It's a real struggle to get it anywhere near neutral thanks to the blocked jet so it definitely has to go to give me any chance of not turning every boro colour to mud! It won't be too long before I have a second oxy, but at least with a new torch I can make a start!

Ah, a burned out torch is no good :( Thanks for starting this thread, there is some good advice here. Have you found anything yet?

This thread has been enormously helpful, and I think it has set me up with knowledge about torches for some time to come! I have decided on the alpha, I will be ordering it later along with a few tools and a little bit of simax! If I find later on that I want to work purely in boro and get rid of the soft glass altogether I will buy a much bigger, more boro specific torch but for the moment I am going to stick with something a little more dual purpose :)

<grin> Not to keep preaching, but my GF is pure soft-glass and the Lynx is her favorite torch as well ;)

I love my Bravo and i love my Mirage!! two different beasts :cool:
but most of the time i use my bravo wich for the centerfire is the Alpha ;)
Have fun with yours!

Great choice!

I agree wholeheartedly with Chris that if you are doing only boro, the triple-mix GTT torches cannot be beat. If you want to play with COE104 silver glass down the road - and do encasing - then I'd recommend checking out other torches. What Chris mentioned - the thrusting heat - is exactly why I prefer the Bethlehem. I find GTT's thrusting heat TOO penetrating, thus erasing the silver glass effects much more readily than the other torches.

I started with a Bobcat, upgraded to a Barracuda (use the center fire majority of the time). Had a Cricket that I sold. Tried the Alpha/Bravo for a week (thus finding out the slightly reducing Alpha and alerted Bethlehem). Taught on Minor Burners, Crickets, Mini CC, Little Dragon, and Lynx. Played with the Cheetah, Sidewinder, and Scorpion (at the Gathering Open Torch events). After all that, I am 100% convinced that for what I do - ginormous soft glass beads and murrinis, starting to play with some marble and small boro, and using load of soft glass silver glass - the Barracuda (or its replacement the Bravo with the Alpha centerfire) is the torch for me.

Just my opinion, however...