Ventilation - pretty please, help!
 

OK, here’s the thing.
I’ve spent literally two years trying to figure out how to ventilate for enameling and, more recently, lampworking, and am so confused and completely paralyzed that I have done NOTHING.
This is a serious safety issue, and to be honest, I don’t understand why, given the popularity of both mediums, there isn’t an off-the-shelf solution.
I’m not MacGuyver. I am not handy. Show me ductwork and in-line fans and talk to me about CFMs and I start getting freaked out. I want to be safe, but AACK!
My craft room has two windows. They’re on the same wall. I have cats, so I don’t want heavier gases and fumes slipping under the door to poison them. I can’t cut holes in the walls (it’s a townhome/condo thingie), and wouldn’t know the first thing about setting up a fume hood. I’m only planning on working with MAPP gas and a Hot Head, at least for a good while.
I am a babe in the woods. I am clueless. I know I NEED ventilation, but haven’t the least idea on how to start. And when I say that, understand that I have looked extensively online at lampworking forums (including this one) and discussions of barley boxes and fume hoods and big ventilation pipes that stick out of modified barn doors and what have you. All I’ve accomplished is confusing myself further. There are so many different people out there saying different things, and most of them seem to involve people with some kind of ventilation know-how; I have none of this. The class I took on torch-fired enameling was in a bead store with no ventilation, and the lampworking class was in a converted room in a house with lots of windows and an open door, but no real fume extraction or direct ventilation of the firing area to speak of, either. The enameling and ceramics I did as a kid at camp were in a converted shed, with no particular ventilation, either. Apparently, most of the instruction I have received over the course of my life has been done unsafely!
I just want something simple, that’s going to keep me safe, and won’t involve cutting holes in walls. Is that even possible…?
Any help or advice you’re able to offer would be greatly appreciated. I’m desperate to start working with glass and enamels, but until I’ve found a safe way to do it, I don’t see how. :cry:

FWIW, so far, this one has made the most sense to me, though I would need to figure out a way to do it through a window instead of a hole in the wall, and it doesn't go into intake air to make up for the exhausted air.

http://www.helenvanekdesign.co.uk/page_2368334.html

Hi. I am sharing what I did in my condo the first year. I have sliding Windows. I mounted the highest powered bathroom fan I could find in the middle of a piece of plywood that fit the size of the opening created when I slid the window open. I torched on a table in front of the fan. I left the door of the room open and cracked a window open in another room for make up air. It worked great. Like you I struggle with technical. I had no lingering odors, the carbon monoxide detector in my torch room never bleeped and it seemed to work great. Someone with more know how please comment if this isn't safe. Happy torching sparkly.

Thanks, Donna!
The door/other room window option isn't going to work for me, because of the kitties. :-(
But keep 'em coming! And it's good to know I'm not the only one who has trouble with the technical end of things.

Well welders have been using these for years but it only includes a funnel and no hood so it is only good for relatively small torches and very localised ventilation.
www.ventafume.com

I used one in my garage for a while and it worked well. Based on your description, in my opinion, you should have a full overhead hood. There is no off the shelf system that I know of. I suggest you do the research on fans, sheet metal hood design, and ducting, as well as the fundamentals of ventilation and find a local contractor to build it. Working with enamels should not be taken lightly. Is there no one else that could help?

Larry,
For right now, I'm definitely only working with a very small (MAPP) torch with Hot Head, as well as the world's tiniest, cruddiest kiln (someday, I will get a real kiln. Someday. Oh, yes. But that day is not today.)
As far as enamels go, for right now, I'm only planning on using the immersion method (a.k.a. Painting With Fire), which (I'm told) is less of a big deal on the ventilation front than sifting. Though it's crazy to think that I did LOADS of sifting as a child, and no one thought of this ventilation stuff! I do have a respirator mask, for use while sifting.
That Place-A-Vent looks pretty amazing for my needs, but there aren't any pictures of how it actually exhausts; would I be able to put it in a standard push-up window?

How far apart are the two windows? You need 10 linear feet between the exhausted fume and the fresh intake air as not to draw the bad air back inside.

I am honestly not sure. Could be 10. Probably not, though. I'll check when I get home.

Please measure it when you get home. If it's less than 10 feet, you will have to continue your ducting on the outside away from the intake air window until the distance is at least 10 feet.

For a hood, I have seen systems using aluminum tubs with a hole cut out for ducting. I recommend getting a contractor/handyman to do it for you.

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...A&ved=0CCEQuSQ

Can't happen - like I said, it's a townhome in a complex. If I can't put it through the window, I'm S.O.L.
:cry:

it comes with ducting to the funnel. Home depot has flex that fits for the exhaust. For the wall mounted one it comes with a steel mount. Call them with questions. They are very helpful and thorough.

You can still go through the window except that you will need to continue on with your ducting on the outside turning it away from the other window until the opening is 10 feet from the window for intake take. Does that make sense?

You will need to rig something up ... A piece of plywood with a hole cut to accommodat the ducting that will be hooked up with your hood/funnel inside and the other end extending outside.

Hayley - I get what you're saying; I just think the HOA would have something to say about a big snake of ducting hanging down from the window! :???:
I didn't have the time to measure last night; hopefully tonight. I'm pretty sure it isn't 10 feet, though.

Larry - I'll contact them to see what they have to say for my needs. I also found a company called Sentry Air which markets similar systems and seems to have marketed to the metalworking community.

I see what you mean now. Unfortunately it's pointless setting up any ventilation system if you are just going to bring the exhausted fume right back into your space. So sorry...

I'm still a little unclear as to why these fume catching systems can't handle this? I get needing to bring air back into the room, but I'm not sure why these fume eaters can't handle the fumes from torching. Metalsmiths seem to use them, and I'd think they'd have more to worry about from gold and silver fumes than a glass artist...?

I am not sure what fume catching systems you are referring to? As in the one you posted the link to in post #2?

My point was it didn't matter which system you were to put together, unless you had your exhaust being at a minimum 10 feet from your intake fresh air (that can just be an open window), no system would work.

Welding fume catching system are just smoke removal system, they do not effectively gather or removing the carbon monoxide and NOX fumes and heavy metal molecules released for hot glass, generated by large flame consuming oxygen and fuel.... Simply they (most welding fume hoods) do not move enough air and try to capture smoke particles with a filter.... What we are trying to get rid of are microscopic particles small enough to go through a smoke filter...

Subject is covered almost to ad nauseam here...

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...5c5ff3188a042e

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...5c5ff3188a042e

Dale

We have argued this in the past and I seem to recall Dale that you admitted to having zero personal experience with funnel systems. For the record, Mine worked very well and moved a huge amount of air. The downside as I stated is that you must work directly in front of or directly below the funnel for them to be effective but thats no surprise. By the way, mine was not a filtration system but was designed to exhaust through ducting. Again, for your application I think you need an overhead hood.

I feel like I'm in the same boat. I've read tons and tons on the subject over the years, but nothing ever stuck in my brain. Only very recently has any of it sunk in. After a few final questions to Dale, I'm certain I'm finally on the right track. The main things I've gleaned as utterly important are:

Absolutely NO flexible ducting, and that no matter the size of your enclosure, it's the OPENING alone that determines how many cfms you need. I was confused about that for a long time. You need at least 100 cfm for every square foot of OPENING. So my opening will be 2.5 ft wide x 2ft tall, for a total of 5 square feet. Therefore 500 cfm minimum. Dale suggested 626 cfm would be even better. So I went with 670 cfm, 8 inch inline fan.

I've finally begun constructing this baby. I'm using a nice, deep armoire as my fume hood. That way, I can use the side drawers and cubbies for storage, and close it up all nice and neat when I'm done for the day. I'll be adding a face shield and I'll be caulking around all of the seams inside, and lining with some aluminum sheet. The top writing surface of the armoire will be where I mount the torch. I'm going to mount a reducer (funnel) into the center back of the armoire and run either smooth ducting or just the fan itself through a board that will mount into my window and be removable. A very short line, as the armoire will sit up against the window. I think I'll be putting wheels on it, so I can roll it out to remove the window board. The only thing I'm really still stuck on is the method of sealing around the board, so that fumes cannot re-enter, but at the same time, will be able to be pulled away with ease. I'm thinking weather stripping, but there are many different kinds. Hopefully I'll get that worked out soon.

The fan I got: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-8-670-CF...item3f18239edd

Larry, my statement stems from I have never seen a duct system setup, and that there seems to be no standard on duct size and how many CFM fan should be.... I do remember stating that a funnel of some sort be used on end of duct, the duct material not be corrugated (for same static pressure reason as for duct on hood setup), and that a minimum of 6 inch duct be used and use a minimum of 500CFM fan.... However NOBODY ever came back to me with actual number and efficiency report....

Only feed back I got was "whoosit" is using a "similar system" and it seems to work.....Including you.... Don't mean to start a fight this late in game, a long time ago I tried to establish parameters that were practical and efficient, I asked for feed back, but no body contributed their expediences....

I tried to work something out for safe set of parameters, but the "community" did not seem to want to support the efforts.... Oh well....

This is why I have backed way, way, way, out of the glass arena as people still seem to what to go their own way....

Dale

Dale, I am not looking to start an argument either but I also realize that there is a theoretically perfect system where all of the rules of thumb are met, and a practical system which will vary based on the situation. In my new shop I have a full overhead hood system with 12 inch ducting etc. but this is not always practical. So many funnel systems are in use and I would hope that good judgment is used in building them and that they get tested well. Mine worked very well. How did I choose the components? I SWAG'ed it, tested, and adjusted until I was happy with the performance. I dont think most folks here have the judgment to do this and that is why I often suggest that a local HVAC person be consulted.

For the make-up air, perhaps you could reconsider the other room/window option. My cats have always been able to get in to visit me while I'm torching. I kept a close eye on them and sprayed water at them when they got too close. Also set up a soft bed in a safe place so they could watch (or nap). This worked fine for me. I always kept the water sprayer right by the torch even after they learned the rules. HTH.