Keep eating it Mike. I like you much better on raw cofffee! :lol: That was funny! :D

I think you would have to ask Kevan's husband. He's the one who uses the Cheetah.

BTW, back to the original question that started this thread...
You don't need a GTT Mirage to outperform a Carlisle CC. A GTT Phantom will do it.

And, the Phantom, like all GTTs, is a completely surface mixed torch. It is much kinder on your colors.

The Phantom uses less oxygen and less gas than a Carlisle CC. This is valuable if you are working production. You might want to visit the GLDG and look at the threads over there comparing these two torches.

As far as GTTs not being built as tough as Carlisles, that's true, they're not - they're built tougher. Bulk does not equate toughness. GTTs are built to hold up against quartz. Carlisles are not. True, you can crack off a punty on a Carlisle, but you can crack one off on a GTT, too. Just crack it off on the taper/cone. If you crack it off on the barrel, you will probably dent the barrel. This is cosmetic and will not affect the performance of the torch.

Further, the toughness of the internals of a torch matter more than the toughness of the externals. GTTs are definitely tougher on the inside.

For a torch to be a workhorse, it has to be dependable. "Workhorse" should not mean that you have to work like a horse to work your glass.

:lol: According to you Kim, GTT is always the best, in any given situation... now you claim they are tougher than a CC... come on. =;

Well, why don't you take both torches and run them on quartz and see for yourself which one holds up longer.

That is a practical measurement of "toughness" for a torch - not whether or not you can drive nails with it. You don't use a torch as a hammer, do you? You need a torch to be able to stand up to what a torch should stand up to. You need the torch to be well-built with high quality materials both inside and out.

In a lot of studio situations, you do the equivalent of driving nails with the torch. I don't man handle mine, but some people travel alot... some people use them as a hand torch and yes, torches do get dropped. I don't work quartz... and don't plan to, so the test you are referring to, doesn't matter to me. I had a CC that was about 50 years old. You could tell by the dents on the barrel / face rim, that it had been dropped several times... it still ran like a champ! The CC has external valve assemblies, so if you drop it on a valve and damage it or the baggage handlers get crazy with it, they are easily replaced by the end user for very little money... I could go on, but it's pointless because a GTT can melt more quartz, so it's obviously tougher. :lol:

Have you ever replaced a valve assembly, yourself? Does this void any warranty that Carlisle may have on the torch? Do you know how much Carlisle charges to replace a valve assembly?

The question is not about how much quartz a torch can melt, necessarily, it is about how the torch (the face in particular) holds up to those conditions.

And, yes, traveling with a torch is very important to many people - especially teachers. That is why some people absolutely love to teach/travel with their GTTs. After a class, they are able to just pick up the torch and pack it away... no need to wait for it to cool down.

:D :D :D

If you can get the the Gathering you can try both and talk to the Carlise and GTT people. I especially like the Carlisle company as it's owned by a very nice lady and I'm an old feminist. How is that for a scientific reason?? Paula

Sounds like a perfect reason to choose Carlisle Paula!!! Although, if you haven't noticed i'm PMS'in pretty bad today so any "female" reason is good enough for me...men suck in my eyes today and for the next 5 or 6 days to come!!! (except of course my hero Smiley...hehe)

Wow, Chad, six months sounds like an awefully long time to wait for a Phantom. I know that GTT has sent Phantoms out to their distributors within the last six months. If you would like to PM me with the distributors whose lists you are on, I would be happy to look into it for you.:koolaid:

Nicely edited, thank you, mods!

Until I see how much it's going to cost me to get Simba out of the vet, I'm not spending another dime. I'm thinking I could buy two or three torches for what it's going to cost me to get the little guy better.

However, once I get past all this vet stuff, I'll definitely be talking to you about a torch...

Is there any way you can try each before buying? This is such a personal thing. I went with my Bobcat over a Minor (I know different class torch) because I didn't like the Minor's knobs and because of what I'd read about them.

I plan to replace my Bobcat as soon as possible and hope to be able to try others before I buy. It will probably be a Bethlehem torch. I've seen them in use, and like what I read.

Seems like some are brand loyal and others ready to jump ship. I'm not sure where the urban legends pop up about one company or another. But I think all companies have customer service issues. (Even owners of companies have bad days here and there.) Those who have had bad experiences tend not to want to do business with that company again. So if two torches are similar and someone brand loyal makes a recommendation there is bias. If someone who has had a problem makes the recommendation there is bias.

Too bad there isn't a way to include that in our suggestions without it becoming negative.

Well, it probably won't help you too much since you're in the midwest, and I'm on the east coast, but that's what I'm trying to get set up here. I want to have at least one of every brand's "entry level" torch set up for customers to try, both on tanked/liquid oxygen, and on concentrators. I'm going to have at least one Minor, Mini CC, Bobcat, and Betta that stay set up all the time, and can be switched from concentrators to tanks quickly. Hopefully I'll also be able to have larger models from the different manufacturers set up as well.

Going to the Gathering would be a good option, Nancy. They usually have open torch and almost all of the torches are there and available to play with.

Yeah, that too...

:D

Yah, I'm not thinking the Gathering is for me. But that's a whole thread hi-jack and I'm not going there. I'm just pretty sure I won't buy a GTT. I know several places where I can try a barracuda so that's a first step.

As far as talking to me about a torch purchase, talk to Wally. While I have a personal relationship with Willy, and try to help people as much as I can, I am not an employee of GTT.

I read elsewhere about Simba, poor little guy. I hope he gets better soon.

Well, yeah, by "you" I meant GTT...

Cosmo that's an awesome idea!! I thought about it but didn't have the space to do it!!
I've got just about enough space to add a few more torches which we desperatly need. 10 wasn't enough!

So I'm adding the Cuda and the Dragon and maybe a Phantom after I try one at the Gathering...
Paula

Ahh. I forgot about the Kinght torches. I'll have to look into those as well. We're also getting a hot head for people to try out. Believe it or not, I've never worked on one of those...

If you plan on wacking off punties on a gtt get a good torch mounted marveler and wack off on that. ( Wow that sounds funny lol ) No worry about denting it up or other cosmedic issues that way.


But as far as the price difrence any GTT you pick will pay for its self in saved o2 in the long run. They use a LOT less oxygen and less gas than a Carlisle CC

I can atest that Even the big gtt's eat less then a Carlisle CC.
The o2 system we have up at the shop.(onsitegas systems pro8) has all it can do to keep up with a CC runing full blast. But I can run a delta torch on it and I have pleanty of o2 left over for the red max to be used at the same time. and the delta can make a lot more heat then the cc.
So if a delta can save enought o2 to run a second torch. one of the smaller ones has to save a lot on o2 if using tanked o2 or liquid even for that matter.

Nancy, I totally agree with you. I have used almost all the different brands of torches at one time or another, and it all comes down to what you are comfortable with and what you want to do, the versatility you need or want in a torch. Nothing anyone can say can make up for actually trying it yourself. Perhaps there are lampworkers in your area that have different torches so you can do your own research. I don't know of any place where you can actually line the torches up side by side and test each one of them except that Gathering, and you have already said you don't think that's for you. Torches are very personal pieces of equipment and you can listen to everyone and still not get what is best for you. The best thing I can tell you is that there is a very good market for used torches, so if you buy a torch and find that you don't like it, then more than likely you can sell it without losing too much money.

Good luck on your search,

Besides being really cool looking, I have noticed that in the dead heat of the summer, our shop is much cooler running the GTT torches. To me that is important. When I was teaching 2 murrini classes in San Antonio last year, I used a minor during the first class. I demonstrated a seahorse murrini and it took forever to heat it through. The 2nd class I asked to use a bobcat and the difference was amazing. It was a breeze heating up the murrini and I realized that even the Bobcat is a terrific torch.

Pati

I was going off track for a minute I use a phantom and Johnny uses a Mirage. I work with soft glass mostly (sometimes boro) and Johnny is strictly boro.

It is a personal decision but if I was to choose a torch to use for the next 5 to 10 years, it would be a GTT. The customer service is fantastic. I have never had a problem with them EVER. A couple of years ago my torch I knocked my torch off my bench (me being stupid) and it crashed to the cement floor and and one of the oxygen knobs bent and I was Totally bummed. I sent it to Wally and it was returned within 5 days, it looked shiny and new and it was completely tuned up and repaired. That's really excellent service.

Pati

I think this is a really good point that people probably don't hear enough. My case, I probably won't try to sell it. I had thought I'd get the propane knob checked out and then consider selling it. I'm not sure I'll ever be comfortable selling this torch, maybe if I list it 'as is', I don't know.

But while I think getting the right torch is important, I'm glad I got one and didn't wait any longer to move up. (Same with buying a kiln. Sure one may suit someone better than another but any kiln is better than no kiln.) I just wish I'd gotten a different response from customer service. I was expecting to pay for anything they did because the torch was about a year old. Their response just make it where I don't see buying from them again. But that's a different thread.

Nancy, I remember from previous posts that you were having a problem with your Bobcat. I also remember that I suggested that you send it in. Really, the best thing to do is to send it in and let them take a look at it. If there is a problem with the torch, they can fix it. Sometimes, all it needs is a good cleaning. Even if you do not keep it for your own use, you could sell it in good conscience.

They can't "make it right" if you don't give them the chance to by sending it in.

You know, this is true for any torch. The manufacturer cannot fix a torch they don't have in the shop. There are so many times that I have read about problems with different torches and many times, the person posting about the problem had not yet contacted the manufacturer before complaining loudly on the forum. My standard response has always included "call the manufacturer" and in many cases "send it in."

Now, if a person had sent the torch in and was still having problems with it and the manufacturer was being unresponsive/unwilling to try to fix things, then I could see coming onto the forum and complaining.

From what I know of the torch companies out there, none of the torch companies (even competitors of GTT) will turn someone down when they ask to send in a torch to have someone look at it.

I did e-mail the manufacturer. And there was a phone call. I'd prefer not drag this further into the public.

OK, Nancy. Just know that if ever/whenever you're ready to send it in, they're there to help. If there's anything I can to do to help you, PM me.