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-   -   GTT or carlisle? (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25754)

northern light 2006-06-26 7:25am

GTT or carlisle?
 
Ok, let's pretend that $ is no object...tough, yes, but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the carlisle CC versus the GTT Mirage. I would really like to get into larger boro work, vessels, sculpture. any advice?

Cosmo 2006-06-26 7:26am

Mirage hands down. But a CC will do nicely as well.

Good luck getting a GTT, though. I've been waiting on a Phantom for over six months now...

kbinkster 2006-06-26 8:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by northern light
Ok, let's pretend that $ is no object...tough, yes, but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the carlisle CC versus the GTT Mirage. I would really like to get into larger boro work, vessels, sculpture. any advice?

The Mirage is much more efficient on gas and oxygen than a CC. It will put the heat to the core of the glass faster than a CC (or any Beth, for that matter). It has more heat density than a CC+ RP (or the Great White, or the 65 HA).

It is not as harsh on your colors - you can work crayon colors without encasing.

It is quieter.

The body stays cool. You won't burn yourself on the barrel of the torch just by looking at it.

It has an amazing flame range.

It can work any type of glass from the most finicky leaded glass to quartz and everything in between.

Mr. Smiley 2006-06-26 8:38am

You won't burn yourself on any torch just by looking at it. :lol: Nice jab there Kimberly... :lol:

The CC is the work horse of our industry that got us where we are today. They are built like a tank... maintenance is easy... but the premix centerfire is harsher on colors. They have an optimizer now, that I'm wanting to try. It's supposed to tame the beast. If you're working a lot of clear, it's great as is! I used to have a CC before I got a Mirage. I personally liked the Mirage better for the type of large solid lathe work I was doing. It is not built as tough, but does come with a lifetime warranty... this does not include damage done to the torch my the user. If you are doing hollow work or really need a solid torch that will take abuse, I'd seriously look at the CC. I know you said that price isn't an object, but it's almost half the price. The Mirage is an awesome torch... just make sure you need it before you spend over $1700. ;)

Mr. Smiley 2006-06-26 8:52am

GTT torches have a down side... but when you design something as complex as a torch, you can't have every thing. It's give and take, to make it work better in a certain aspect, you may give up another strength other torches have. ;)

Cosmo 2006-06-26 9:04am

Well, to reinforce what I said in my first post in this thread - A Mirage is a great torch. A CC is a great torch as well. Is the Mirage $700 better than the CC? That's up to the user to decide. I haven't used a Mirage. I have used a Phantom, and I have used a CC. There are things I prefer a Phantom for, and things I would rather work on a CC.

However, if money were no object, I'd say get a Python. Of course, if money were no object, I'd be discussing whether to buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini. Not which kind of torch to buy...

MikeAurelius 2006-06-26 10:09am

Introducing the Mongoose!
 
The Mongoose is a new torch on the market, specifically designed to address the needs of the growing number of lampworkers who want larger and larger torches. Designed to be modified by the owner simply by adding progressively larger outer rings of flame, it is both the perfect starter torch and the only torch a lampworker will ever need. Cooling of the torch is accomplished by flowing both oxygen and nitrogen through the torch body through cleverly designed stainless micro-tubules. The torch body will never get hotter than you can comfortably touch.

The Mongoose 1 is a both a surface and pre-mix torch, with 7 ports. 3 Valves control the flow of compressed air, oxygen, propane. An additional 4th valve allows you to adjust the mixture of compressed air and propane inside the torch body. True QUADRUPLE mix technology! 2 to 15 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 195.00 plus shipping

The Mongoose 2 is an add-on torch body that slides over your existing Mongoose1 and adds a 30 port outer fire. 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 30 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 250.00 plus shipping

The Mongoose 3 is an add-on torch body that slides over your existing Mongoose 1 and Mongoose 2 and adds a 60 port outer fire. 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 50 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 795.00 plus shipping.

The Mongoose 4 is the final add-on available at this time. It slides over the existing Mongoose 1, 2, and 3, to add an astonishing 150 ports! 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 90 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 1250.00 plus shipping

Special package pricing:

Mongoose 1 and 2: $ 435 plus shipping
Mongoose 1, 2 and 3: $ 1195.00 plus shipping
Mongoose 1, 2, 3, and 4: $ 2200.00 plus shipping

These torches are available for immediate shipment to anywhere in the world.

Gas pressures: Oxygen: 5 to 45 PSI, Propane: 2 to 20 PSI, Compressed Air: 10 to 20 PSI. The range used by the torch will depend on the number of outer rings being used. Nitrogen is used as a cooling gas only, and requires .5 PSI continuous flow.

Footswitches will be coming soon, specially designed for the 3 ports (oxygen, compressed air, and propane), as well as the 4 total rings of flame.

Cosmo 2006-06-26 10:16am

Mike,

Where can we get more info on the Mongoose? Who makes them? Sounds very interesting...

And, to everyone else, sorry for disrupting the post. The Carlisle and GTT are both good torches, as are Bethlehems (which I currently use, at the recommendation of Brent and others). I would, however, take what you read in this thread and others on this board (both good and bad) into account no matter what torch you buy...

kbinkster 2006-06-26 10:26am

Mike, can you run it on a concentrator?

Oh, and the compressed air option is great. You can add compressed air through torches without a dedicated inlet, btw. Ask me how and I will explain. This is beneficial to anyone wanting to do thin hollow work.

Cosmo 2006-06-26 10:30am

I know Carlisle has that "optimizer" for adding compressed air, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I don't know much about it. Don't Herbert Arnold torches use compressed air as well?

Cosmo 2006-06-26 10:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by northern light
Ok, let's pretend that $ is no object...tough, yes, but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the carlisle CC versus the GTT Mirage. I would really like to get into larger boro work, vessels, sculpture. any advice?

I bet you never thought your first post on this board would be so popular, huh?

MikeAurelius 2006-06-26 10:33am

Kimberly, no. Tanks or liquid only.

bhhco 2006-06-26 10:39am

Mike,
At Mongoose level 4 there are 16 valves?
Did I add right?
Bill

MikeAurelius 2006-06-26 10:44am

Yep. a set for each ring.

kbinkster 2006-06-26 10:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo
I know Carlisle has that "optimizer" for adding compressed air, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I don't know much about it. Don't Herbert Arnold torches use compressed air as well?

Yes, HAs use compressed air.

When using compressed air with a Herbie, be sure to have a water trap in place. It can be an expensive mistake not to (there was a thread about it on the GLDG).

For other torches without the dedicated inlet, you just add air through the propane line. This works well for four stud torches. It is important to have an in-line regulator for the air. Jason Howard used to make these set-ups, and may again if he is persuaded to with enough interest.

Cosmo 2006-06-26 10:50am

A Herbie is something I've never used. And, quite frankly, they look a little scary to me...

pam 2006-06-26 10:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by northern light
Ok, let's pretend that $ is no object...tough, yes, but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the carlisle CC versus the GTT Mirage. I would really like to get into larger boro work, vessels, sculpture. any advice?

I personally would go with the Mirage, as the CC is internal mix on the single center port and surface mix on the outer 34 ports. The boro colors don't develop as easily as on a complete surface mix torch. The Mirage has seven center ports with 33 outer ports, all surface mix. During classes working colored boro, the people working on CC's generally had a harder time getting the colors. You will have more versatility with the Mirage, as you can still do smaller work using the inner 7 ports, similar to a Lynx.

I hope that helps.
Pam

bhhco 2006-06-26 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo
A Herbie is something I've never used. And, quite frankly, they look a little scary to me...

What attracted me to the HA was once you set up the flame balance you could adjust the flame from full to pinpoint with just one knob, big to little, and anywhere in between, and the balance remained the same.
What scared me was the price.
Bill

kbinkster 2006-06-26 11:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo
A Herbie is something I've never used. And, quite frankly, they look a little scary to me...

They do look a little scary to some people. I was taking Makenzie for a spin through the technical exhibit area at the GAS conference and when we passed by one, she cried. Personally, I find them interesting. Not too many people know how they work.

The thing about Herbies is that they tune them at the factory for your specific application. So, if you work soft thin hollows, that is what they tune it for. If you work hard solids, that it what they tune it for. Everything is preset at the factory, so when you get it home, you just adjust the one control knob. The more you turn the knob, the center fire turns on, and then the next ring of fire comes on, and then the third ring...

The down side is that if you have your HA configured for one thing (hollow work, for example), it won't be very effective for other work (solid work, for example). And, if you start messing with the hex nuts and stuff other than the one control knob, you are asking for trouble.

To get around this, guys with HAs will often put inline regulators up at the torch so they can control the flame that way.

Cosmo 2006-06-26 11:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhhco
What scared me was the price.

Yeah, that too. They start at like $2200 or something, don't they?

Of course, I'm sure I'll own one before long. I'm on a mission to own one of every torch brand. Then probably one of every torch model.

Yes, I'm a torch-whore. I admit it.

MikeAurelius 2006-06-26 1:47pm

ooooooooo....what he said......ROFL!!!

pam 2006-06-26 2:48pm

Someone (forget who - just remember the torch) was demo'ing at a GAS conference with an HA and she had a heck of a time getting it set up. Evidently it is extremely sensitive and because she moved it from her home to the conference it was all messed up. As I remember it it took her about 45 minutes to get it to work and then it wasn't right, she said. I think I prefer a simpler life, thank you.

Cosmo 2006-06-26 3:45pm

Well, I've heard with Herbies, you either swear by them or you swear at them. The guys I have talked to that use them won't use anything else. It does look like a big adjustment to me.

Kevan 2006-06-26 5:19pm

We saw a really nice torch at Fratz a couple of weeks ago called a Bullet Burner. Everyone there really liked it, but they don't actually carry it. It was small in stature, but you cold really control the flame and it just didn't get hot. All the guys wanted one.

Not that I know anything about torches. We have a GTT Cheeta and I don't use it.

Mr. Smiley 2006-06-26 5:29pm

I liked the CC much better after my class with Mickelsen. Before that class, I really didn't care too much for it. That style of larger sculpture really worked well with that torch. It's a beast and you can manhandle it.

The Bullet didn't impress me when I had it for a few weeks. It's a good torch and Selchow really loves his... I just didn't like it for what I do. ;)

PaulaD 2006-06-26 6:11pm

Those of you waiting for a torch don't feel bad. I've beem waiting for a Lucio torch since September. I know people are getting them but I'm not. I don' think I even want it anymore. I think I'm over my sculpture wanna be phase. Paula

edited to add...The torch just got here and it's a beauty!!

Cosmo 2006-06-27 6:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevan
Not that I know anything about torches. We have a GTT Cheeta and I don't use it.

Wanna sell it?

MikeAurelius 2006-06-27 6:12am

A torch, any torch, will be only as good as the person using it.

Those are my thoughts, and mine alone. Mine, do you hear me? MINE!!! No one else can think this!!!! MIIIIINNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


hehehehehehehehehehe

Cosmo 2006-06-27 6:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius
A torch, any torch, will be only as good as the person using it.

Those are my thoughts, and mine alone. Mine, do you hear me? MINE!!! No one else can think this!!!! MIIIIINNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


hehehehehehehehehehe

In that case, maybe I should start using a can of hair spray and a lighter as my torch...

MikeAurelius 2006-06-27 6:48am

ROFL...I think I better stop eating raw coffee. You think?

Mr. Smiley 2006-06-27 6:54am

Keep eating it Mike. I like you much better on raw cofffee! :lol: That was funny! :D

kbinkster 2006-06-27 7:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo
Wanna sell it?

I think you would have to ask Kevan's husband. He's the one who uses the Cheetah.

kbinkster 2006-06-27 8:50am

BTW, back to the original question that started this thread...
You don't need a GTT Mirage to outperform a Carlisle CC. A GTT Phantom will do it.

And, the Phantom, like all GTTs, is a completely surface mixed torch. It is much kinder on your colors.

The Phantom uses less oxygen and less gas than a Carlisle CC. This is valuable if you are working production. You might want to visit the GLDG and look at the threads over there comparing these two torches.

As far as GTTs not being built as tough as Carlisles, that's true, they're not - they're built tougher. Bulk does not equate toughness. GTTs are built to hold up against quartz. Carlisles are not. True, you can crack off a punty on a Carlisle, but you can crack one off on a GTT, too. Just crack it off on the taper/cone. If you crack it off on the barrel, you will probably dent the barrel. This is cosmetic and will not affect the performance of the torch.

Further, the toughness of the internals of a torch matter more than the toughness of the externals. GTTs are definitely tougher on the inside.

For a torch to be a workhorse, it has to be dependable. "Workhorse" should not mean that you have to work like a horse to work your glass.

Mr. Smiley 2006-06-27 1:43pm

:lol: According to you Kim, GTT is always the best, in any given situation... now you claim they are tougher than a CC... come on. =;

kbinkster 2006-06-27 1:56pm

Well, why don't you take both torches and run them on quartz and see for yourself which one holds up longer.

That is a practical measurement of "toughness" for a torch - not whether or not you can drive nails with it. You don't use a torch as a hammer, do you? You need a torch to be able to stand up to what a torch should stand up to. You need the torch to be well-built with high quality materials both inside and out.

Mr. Smiley 2006-06-27 2:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbinkster
Well, why don't you take both torches and run them on quartz and see for yourself which one holds up longer.

That is a practical measurement of "toughness" for a torch - not whether or not you can drive nails with it. You don't use a torch as a hammer, do you? You need a torch to be able to stand up to what a torch should stand up to. You need the torch to be well-built with high quality materials both inside and out.

In a lot of studio situations, you do the equivalent of driving nails with the torch. I don't man handle mine, but some people travel alot... some people use them as a hand torch and yes, torches do get dropped. I don't work quartz... and don't plan to, so the test you are referring to, doesn't matter to me. I had a CC that was about 50 years old. You could tell by the dents on the barrel / face rim, that it had been dropped several times... it still ran like a champ! The CC has external valve assemblies, so if you drop it on a valve and damage it or the baggage handlers get crazy with it, they are easily replaced by the end user for very little money... I could go on, but it's pointless because a GTT can melt more quartz, so it's obviously tougher. :lol:

kbinkster 2006-06-27 2:55pm

Have you ever replaced a valve assembly, yourself? Does this void any warranty that Carlisle may have on the torch? Do you know how much Carlisle charges to replace a valve assembly?

The question is not about how much quartz a torch can melt, necessarily, it is about how the torch (the face in particular) holds up to those conditions.

And, yes, traveling with a torch is very important to many people - especially teachers. That is why some people absolutely love to teach/travel with their GTTs. After a class, they are able to just pick up the torch and pack it away... no need to wait for it to cool down.

Mr. Smiley 2006-06-27 3:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbinkster
Have you ever replaced a valve assembly, yourself? Does this void any warranty that Carlisle may have on the torch? Do you know how much Carlisle charges to replace a valve assembly?

No, I haven';t done it, but I did call Carlisle once and asked how much one was. They told me... I'd hate to quote a wrong price and have you correct me... so we'll leave it at "reasonable". They did tell me I could do it myself. Have you looked at a CC and seen how easy it would be? Kind of a no brainer.

The question is not about how much quartz a torch can melt, necessarily, it is about how the torch (the face in particular) holds up to those conditions.

If you aren't going to expose the torch face to those conditions, why does it matter? If a CC can burn for thousands and thousands of hours in a studio situation, I'm sold on the depandability of it.

And, yes, traveling with a torch is very important to many people - especially teachers. That is why some people absolutely love to teach/travel with their GTTs. After a class, they are able to just pick up the torch and pack it away... no need to wait for it to cool down.

I suppose if your flight is an hour or two after the class ends or you aren't very social with your students, this would be a plus...

:D :D :D

PaulaD 2006-06-27 3:29pm

If you can get the the Gathering you can try both and talk to the Carlise and GTT people. I especially like the Carlisle company as it's owned by a very nice lady and I'm an old feminist. How is that for a scientific reason?? Paula

JABOKA 2006-06-27 3:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulaD
If you can get the the Gathering you can try both and talk to the Carlise and GTT people. I especially like the Carlisle company as it's owned by a very nice lady and I'm an old feminist. How is that for a scientific reason?? Paula

Sounds like a perfect reason to choose Carlisle Paula!!! Although, if you haven't noticed i'm PMS'in pretty bad today so any "female" reason is good enough for me...men suck in my eyes today and for the next 5 or 6 days to come!!! (except of course my hero Smiley...hehe)

kbinkster 2006-06-27 9:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo
Mirage hands down. But a CC will do nicely as well.

Good luck getting a GTT, though. I've been waiting on a Phantom for over six months now...

Wow, Chad, six months sounds like an awefully long time to wait for a Phantom. I know that GTT has sent Phantoms out to their distributors within the last six months. If you would like to PM me with the distributors whose lists you are on, I would be happy to look into it for you.:koolaid:

MikeAurelius 2006-06-28 4:34am

Nicely edited, thank you, mods!

Cosmo 2006-06-28 5:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbinkster
Wow, Chad, six months sounds like an awefully long time to wait for a Phantom. I know that GTT has sent Phantoms out to their distributors within the last six months. If you would like to PM me with the distributors whose lists you are on, I would be happy to look into it for you.:koolaid:

Until I see how much it's going to cost me to get Simba out of the vet, I'm not spending another dime. I'm thinking I could buy two or three torches for what it's going to cost me to get the little guy better.

However, once I get past all this vet stuff, I'll definitely be talking to you about a torch...

Just Nancy 2006-06-28 5:37am

Is there any way you can try each before buying? This is such a personal thing. I went with my Bobcat over a Minor (I know different class torch) because I didn't like the Minor's knobs and because of what I'd read about them.

I plan to replace my Bobcat as soon as possible and hope to be able to try others before I buy. It will probably be a Bethlehem torch. I've seen them in use, and like what I read.

Seems like some are brand loyal and others ready to jump ship. I'm not sure where the urban legends pop up about one company or another. But I think all companies have customer service issues. (Even owners of companies have bad days here and there.) Those who have had bad experiences tend not to want to do business with that company again. So if two torches are similar and someone brand loyal makes a recommendation there is bias. If someone who has had a problem makes the recommendation there is bias.

Too bad there isn't a way to include that in our suggestions without it becoming negative.

Cosmo 2006-06-28 6:26am

Well, it probably won't help you too much since you're in the midwest, and I'm on the east coast, but that's what I'm trying to get set up here. I want to have at least one of every brand's "entry level" torch set up for customers to try, both on tanked/liquid oxygen, and on concentrators. I'm going to have at least one Minor, Mini CC, Bobcat, and Betta that stay set up all the time, and can be switched from concentrators to tanks quickly. Hopefully I'll also be able to have larger models from the different manufacturers set up as well.

MikeAurelius 2006-06-28 6:39am

Going to the Gathering would be a good option, Nancy. They usually have open torch and almost all of the torches are there and available to play with.

Cosmo 2006-06-28 7:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius
Going to the Gathering would be a good option, Nancy. They usually have open torch and almost all of the torches are there and available to play with.

Yeah, that too...

:D

Just Nancy 2006-06-28 7:35am

Yah, I'm not thinking the Gathering is for me. But that's a whole thread hi-jack and I'm not going there. I'm just pretty sure I won't buy a GTT. I know several places where I can try a barracuda so that's a first step.

kbinkster 2006-06-28 7:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo
Until I see how much it's going to cost me to get Simba out of the vet, I'm not spending another dime. I'm thinking I could buy two or three torches for what it's going to cost me to get the little guy better.

However, once I get past all this vet stuff, I'll definitely be talking to you about a torch...

As far as talking to me about a torch purchase, talk to Wally. While I have a personal relationship with Willy, and try to help people as much as I can, I am not an employee of GTT.

I read elsewhere about Simba, poor little guy. I hope he gets better soon.

Cosmo 2006-06-28 7:47am

Well, yeah, by "you" I meant GTT...


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