Lampwork Etc.

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-   -   Propane in the House? NO! (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412)

menty666 2007-04-25 6:35pm

Oh I actually keep hose in mine. I have a 100 lb tank plumbed into my shed that I use for propane :) I was just curious.

I'm crazy about the safety with the fuel gasses. Last fall(?) a 20# tank blew up outside someone's house here in MA and they reported on the news it's roughly the equivalent to a stick of dynamite. I'm extra paranoid about dealing with a container 5x that size.

susiekline 2007-06-14 2:23pm

What about Chemtane? Where should that be stored? I have everything in the garage right now and am seriously rethinking that! My garage is connected to my house.

If I want to put the propane outside--barbecue sized tank--what do I need to do? Do I need an extra long hose coming through the door or window?

Sorry for the questions--totally newbie here!

Dale M. 2007-06-14 4:58pm

All tanked fuels should be stored outside..... Yes you can use hose through door or window as temporary connection. It must be removed when you finish torching session.... Sounds like you are on a HH....

Dale

susiekline 2007-06-15 6:48am

Thanks Dale for the info. Yes, I am on a HH. WAs considering changing to something bigger, but don't want tanked oxygen and don't have big bucks for oxycon machine. So I'm sticking with the HH for awhile.

I saw a reference to a "quick connect" for the propane tank--where do I get something like this? Mine has a screw-in connection now.

Dale M. 2007-06-15 9:45am

I do not reccomend "quick connects" for high pressure propane. To much oportunity to leak.... Stick with "screw" connection.... Always check for leaks when connecting each time.

Dale

smiltroy 2007-06-25 1:03pm

here in europe,in some countrys at least its not illegal to have propane in the house, they actually sell propane based heaters to keep in house

and also we have one in like 99% of the houses in the kitchens, cause we use it to cook, so, it cant be that dangerous, but im no expert

but one thing is for sure, here is llegal and almost everybody as at least one propane tank in their houses 24/7

Dale M. 2007-06-25 2:21pm

I can go along with the fact that in Europe they use it for cooking and heating.... In US we do to, only we keep tanks outside (by safety codes) and pipe it in to do what is required (cook and heat)... Different countries different rules.

What I CAN NOT go along with is ...

Quote:

....because we use it to cook, so, it cant be that dangerous,
What I can go along with is....

Quote:

... but im no expert...

Any time you have fuel gases and they are heavier than air and can pool at floor level instead of dissipating and waffling upwards and out doors and windows it IS DANGEROUS...

Dale

Peach Blossom Beads 2007-06-26 6:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by smiltroy (Post 1237066)
here in europe,in some countrys at least its not illegal to have propane in the house, they actually sell propane based heaters to keep in house

and also we have one in like 99% of the houses in the kitchens, cause we use it to cook, so, it cant be that dangerous, but im no expert

but one thing is for sure, here is llegal and almost everybody as at least one propane tank in their houses 24/7

I saw, with my own eyes, an entire house blow up even though the propane was outside.

It's posts like these that make some people say to themselves, "well, it must be ok then. I can at least leave it for a little while, right?". Illegal is illegal is illegal. And more important? Stupid is stupid is stupid.

suechrist 2007-08-20 10:34pm

safety-propane tanks
 
How far from the house should the propane tank be? Mine is about 1 yard away and I connect through a window and turn everything off after each session.

AnnDK 2007-08-21 12:26am

Well... I live on the fourth floor.... I have my tank in the room where I torch and then I carry it back out on the balcony when I'm done. There's no way I can get hoses lined through windows ect. Sometimes it's what is possible that determines how tings are done.
Offcause safety should be the taken seriuosly and be as good as possible, but some of us just can't built in vents and pull hoses through the flat as we pleases.
I can't, living in a rented flat. I'm not to alter the flat in any way and I can't afford to rent a studio.
I'm glad to see that so many go through alot of efforts to increase their safety in their studio.
:D Ann

cat.glass 2007-10-06 11:17am

I currently use small mapp gas containers. I usually have 1 full on hand and one which isn't full in my room. I have read that mapp gas is more stable than propane. My room is currently upstairs and I haven't figured an alternative to this to be able to house a larger tank. since the tanks are not large where you can set it outside and use a long hose to get it in; is there less danger from mapp than propane?

Catlyn

Just Nancy 2007-10-06 12:24pm

It has been a while but I believe MAPP is enhanced Propane. The problem isn't so much stability as if there is a leak it sinks and pools. Then can combust in a flame. Some people get bulk tanks of MAPP (that is the brand name I'm thinking the generic is Propelyne but again, it has been a while). Still it might be hard to pipe it to a second story. I don't know about tank pressure on smaller tanks and things. A pound canister I'm sure would never reach upstairs.

anneli 2007-10-06 8:53pm

Alright..I've read almost ALL of this post and I'm needing more info..believe it or not. I am about to move my studio inside after a couple of years of working outside exclusively. I will be using my 3rd bedroom (not used for anything else right now but storage). This room is attached to our garage and we are planning to run both oxygen and propane tanks out there...run hoses through holes made in the wall, etc. Now should I just forget all about this and somehow run them outside?? That would be at the front of my house (which would look ugly..but who cares as long as I feel safe). I just want to make sure that the garage is ok...it is sheetrocked on both sides (if that matters).

I am really really paranoid with tanks as it is...it's amazing I went into lampworking. I still freak out even outside if I think something isn't connected just right (drives my husband crazy..but he's fearless..I'm not).

So is the garage ok? And also, am I clear in that after every session I need to "unhook" the tanks? I don't do that now..I just turn them off, let the air out of the lines..and that's it. Hmmm..maybe I outta just keep flaming outdoors..lol.

Any help would be appreciated..thanks!

www.freewebs.com/sparetimedesigns

Just Nancy 2007-10-07 8:29am

I'm not a safety guru but I will reply and maybe someone else will jump in. I'm not sure why the concern about the oxygen being inside. If it is inside it needs to be chained to a wall. But people have tanks inside for medical purposes all the time. That said, the propane really needs to be outside. I believe it is code to bring it in with black pipe. So the outside could be rigged with the black pipe through the wall. Then step down to your regulator and hoses. I'm not sure if that is to keep the hose from wearing in the wall and not knowing it, or what. But it isn't that big of a hole if you were going to use a hole anyway. I'm hooked up to our 1,000 gallon house tank and the supply kind of snakes around to the West to where we wanted it to go in the building and then up and back East to where my torch is used. But I think a bbq tank would limit how far it could be from the room you are using it in. How would it look to have the bbq tank in front of your house and the oxygen inside? Or switch to an oxy con if you are still concerned?

Unhook the tanks? I don't. But I do shut off both the oxygen at the tank and the propane at my regulators and at the place it bypasses the building regulator. Then I bleed the lines. The thing is if there is a leak you don't want it leaking in your house and possibly pooling and then igniting. So you need to shut the tank off, but you're doing that now.

Dale M. 2007-10-07 12:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Nancy (Post 1416765)
It has been a while but I believe MAPP is enhanced Propane. The problem isn't so much stability as if there is a leak it sinks and pools. Then can combust in a flame. Some people get bulk tanks of MAPP (that is the brand name I'm thinking the generic is Propelyne but again, it has been a while). Still it might be hard to pipe it to a second story. I don't know about tank pressure on smaller tanks and things. A pound canister I'm sure would never reach upstairs.

Propylene is NOT MAPP...

Propylene is a fuel of its own properties...

It is heavier than air (S.P. of 1) with a specific gravity of 1.43 and chemically is C3H6.

http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g75.pdf


Propane is fuel of its own properties..

It is heavier than air (S.P. of 1) with a specific gravity of 1.56 and chemically is C3H8.

http://www.fortnet.org/rcvfd/trainin...ane%20msds.pdf


MAPP is a mixture of Methylacetylene and Propadiene.

It is heavier than air (S.P. of 1) with a specific gravity of 1.47 and chemically is a "gas mixture".

http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g118.pdf

Tank pressures of Propane, Propylene and MAPP gas have tank pressures from 91 psi to 151 psi at 70° f.


Dale

Just Nancy 2007-10-08 1:35pm

Forgive me. Having been told by refiners of crude that 'MAPP was enhanced propane'. I realize once it leaves their process they don't know what it becomes and I should have looked further. The answer seemed good enough for me. Now I know.

Still MAPP isn't available in bulk in all markets. I burn something else through my hot head. I thought it was Propylene. Regardless of the specific formulation my supplier calls what I burn generic MAPP. Again, I may not have qualified my answer well enough, but that was as close as I can come. I can add that some people have success burning straight propane through their hot head. I know I didn't.

Regardless of the formulation each fuel mentioned is heavier than air and so the concerns about it pooling and a spark causing combustion.

ETA: Here is a thread started by Dale about hot head fuel: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=831

Teena 2007-10-09 7:29am

Now im scared!
 
Wow, thanks for all the info on this saftey issue. I have my prop tank right beside me in a room in my house! Gulp. I didn't know I was breaking any laws, but above all I don't want to blow up! I'm going to try what Sarah did with her tank and put it outside my window with the hose running threw the window.
Thanks everyone for all the information.
Not to blow up in CA

TheBlueDress 2007-10-30 10:34am

I'm glad I found this post too! You guys have effectively scared the bejesus out of me...I guess that's a good thing! I'm in the process of setting up my studio now and had planned to put it in an upstairs bedroom and bring the propane tank inside while I worked. After reading this post I managed to find some studio space downstairs and the propane tank will be staying outside!!! Thanks for all the great information, I feel safer already! :grin:

ellejule 2007-11-04 9:49pm

I'm curious as to how far from the house/garage the propane should be placed.... I was going to just run it around the corner from where I am torching, essentially it would be directly through the wall in front of me. Also, what kind of enclosure would I put it into?... I have no idea at this point, thanks:)

Dale M. 2007-11-07 9:14am

A enclosure can be anything, a garbage can, a plastic hose reel-storage unit that been gutted, a trellis with climbing plant or not... Just be sure anything you user for storage has a vent near bottom...

Dale

ellejule 2007-11-07 12:21pm

Good to know, thanks!

shiny things 2007-11-18 7:51am

I'm having a house built, and I was planning to work in the basement near the walkout door. I will keep the tank outside, but I don't want to leave my hose and regulators out in the weather. It's not bad for the connections to unscrew it every time I finish torching?
Shanna

Dale M. 2007-11-19 8:29am

It's not a problem.... That is why there is screw threads on tanks and regulators and we have wrenches.... Actually leaving regulator on tank is also a option, you may want to weather protect it though, something as simple as a plastic bucket upside down over tank/regulator is sufficient...

Dale

lath mcleod 2007-12-12 12:45pm

Wow!
The more I read the dumber I get. I guess I keep the tank inside for convenience. I live in Bozeman Montana and I would be worried that my regulator would freeze.

No ventilation system. Improper propane storage. I should have been a ditch digger like my mom told me I was going to be.

Dale M. 2007-12-12 4:38pm

Its not to late to change your evil ways....

Dale

viviansvision 2007-12-23 11:38am

Holey Question!
 
Hi everyone - this is a great thread! I apologize in advance if the following question has already been covered.

We are planning on buying a house with basement. My studio shall be in the basement with propane outside in miniature shed (container).

If I were to sell the house in the future, what do most people do with that plumbed line from the propane? Is it easy to bring the wall back to original condition?

I appreciate everyone's assistance!

Dale M. 2007-12-23 1:53pm

You can leave it here, or remove it and patch holes...

Its sort of a non issue ..

Dale

Orchid40 2007-12-23 4:34pm

The thought of keeping propane anywhere near my torch, scares the crap out of me. I have a line that runs through the wall to the outside.

lauries 2007-12-25 12:30am

1 Attachment(s)
I am mad at myself. I was going to put my tank outside. Instead, I let my plumber talk me out of it (he is a master plumber but housing codes have changed). But after reading this thread, well worth the 2+ hours to read, I am not sure if I should store the tank on the back porch, which is covered but not enclosed or on the side of the garage wall (either way the tank will be in some sort of enclosure to protect the regulator).

The covered porch sloops a bit and has opening to allow rain to roll down and out into the back yard. The side of the garage is fine except I have to wait until Spring to transplant the vegetation to make room for the tank enclosure.

Which is better?

-Laurie

Dale M. 2007-12-28 4:19pm

First choice would be on ground next to garage...

Second choice would be on deck....

Dale


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