First some information....

National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA) codes prohibit bringing propane into residence (if garage is attached to house it's considered part of residence) at as pressure of more than 20 psi. So if you want adjustable regulation at studio "bench" you need to have a intermediate pressure regulator on propane tank. Average propane tank pressures run about 125psi.

Tanked oxygen can have a pressure at up to 2300psi. It is very expensive to try to bring oxygen into studio at these extreme pressures. Plumbing assemblies have to be the absolute best quality and plumber better be high pressure gas certified. However! The solution is quite simple. Have a intermediate pressure regulator on oxygen tank as well (same concept as propane). I am not sure , but I don't think there is a restriction on oxygen pressure as there is on propane,

At this point I would have intermediate regulator on propane tank set at something like 10psi and intermediate regulator on oxygen tank can set to 20psi. This may vary some according to your personal needs.

Then I would connect intermediate regulators to copper or steel piping to enter studio. This is quite common process and quite similar to natural gas piping found on most areas. You can simply connect intermediate regulators to steel/copper piping with flexible hoses (welding style) or soft copper tubing. HOWEVER AND THIS IS IN CAPS FOR EMPHASIS - NOT SHOUTING. IT'S ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE THAT YOUR LINE(S) FOR THE OXYGEN PLUMBING CONTAIN NO OILS OR OIL BASED THREAD SEALERS. AN OIL-OXYGEN MIX IN PIPING IS A RECIPE FOR A SPONTANEOUS EXPLOSION. Metal oxygen line must be scrupulously clean before connecting to oxygen supply.

Once piping is inside studio, any good quality valve rated for "fuel gas" should be acceptable (also for oxygen - But should have GREEN handle) With valves at end of piping you can attach the second set common style adjustable welding regulator to end of shutoff valves. Valve should be clearly labeled as to what they control (fuel/oxygen) and their off/on positions. Shutoff valves and inside regulators should also be supported by brackets securing them to the wall. Believe threaded inlets on regulators are "1/4 inch pipe thread" (once tank connector is removed). From there its standard welding style hose to torch. All "rubber" hoses should be grade "T" for propane gas use.

As for tanks sitting outside and together, there is not a problem. Just be sure that oxygen tank is chained to wall (or post) in upright manner, its a safety issue, keeps it from falling over and breaking off top valve. A local glass artist placed her tanks in a RUBBERMAID outside garden storage locker for appearance and security.

Also if you find this a bit too extreme or intimidating, you may want to explore having natural gas piped into studio and using oxygen concentrator/generator instead of tanked propane and oxygen. Just keep in mind some torches (large ones) do not function on the relative low pressures of natural gas.


Dale M.

I keep my tank outside at all times. The hose is run in through a sliding door when in use and totally disconnected when not in use.

Hi Dale,

Thanks for the info. I'll look into an intermediate regulator between the tank and my existing regulator - hadn't thought about that! I do know about the risk of putting oil or any petroluem product near oxygen. I fly gliders and we have oxygen installed in them for flying at altitude. We don't even use petroleum based chapstick.

I'll post a photo after I get it all installed.

Regards,
Pam

Wow... Years ago I took a few glider rides... What a fantastic expierence....

Wished I had gone on to learn to fly them...

Dale M.

This is a great discussion... things are different here in oz
We all have gas bbq on our veranda's be it front back whatever, and be it house or unit.We refill our gas bottles at servo's and average is 9.5kg and we have all our taxis run on gas and loads of cars..
we do not even think about gas ...
Most people don't even turn off at cylinder when not in use.. I do, can't remember why.. I have never heard of gas blowin up.. in the household situation or vehicle.
Interesting..

I am having trouble wading through this whole thread to catch up, but I was wondering, did anyone post pictures of how they pipe their propane through a wall?

My husband is done with the framing and wiring on closing off of our 3rd stall into a workshop area, and we had someone come in and do an estimate for venting and natural gas hookup. She felt relatively certain that they would not be able to get permit for this application for natural gas...bummer, because that is what I had in Fargo. I am seriously bummed because everyone I've called just acts like I have a third head when I describe what I want. Idaho is not exactly a hotbead of glassworkers to have set a precedent before me... :-({|= :-({|= the same was true in Fargo, but somehow we got through all that.

Anyway, to my question...does anyone have pictures of their propane outside setups? If I go the route of putting my propane outside, I've gotten the general gist that I need to put it outside in a deck box or some such, but I don't know what kind of piping to run through the wall, how to seal the hole and/or make it attractive (brand new house, I would like to make it look nice and finished) and what needs to be on each end.

What I want is a materials list of what to buy to accomplish this.

I am also puzzled -- with this setup, are you forced to run outside to turn on the gas at the cylinder each time, or do you have some kind of dual control setup here, or do you leave it on all the time, and just turn it off at the torch?

Bottom line is you can pipe in propane at a maximum pressure of 20 psi, it should be in steel/black iron pipe. And follow same plumbing rules as natural gas or commercial propane appliance supply plumbing. A shut off valve is required at outside wall and you will need one inside at end of steel piping. Yes it needs to be sealed where it goes through wall, simple caulk will do. Some sort of flex connector needs to be placed between tank regulator and steel piping.

Tell contractor you want extra gas line run for "gas clothes dryer" in new room...Have them stub it out, put shutoff valve on end and "cap" it ...You can remove cap and put on hose adapter fitting later.

Dale

Here are two pictures showing one way to do it. I've since replaced the rubber "T" grade hose on the first picture with flex metal gas line fitted with a quick disconnect and replaced both shut offs with fuel gas shut offs, but these pictures should give you the basic idea of how it's done.

Mike... Where is sign " EMERGENCY GAS SHUT OFF" near valve on inside?

Just a thought!

Dale

As I said, Dale, it's an old picture, taken before all the work was completed.

I too do not fit into your poll, my bead shop is a seperate building well away from the house, with totally inflamable crushed rock in between, (>100ft) aside
{ I usually don't bother with shoes when I go get my beads in the morning, even whe there is half an inch of snow....,} my tank is inside that building, could be moved outside, but it's legal here.... we checked!

Lynne

need not in house but indoors on your poll!

Home Depot sells them. That's where I got mine.


- Sandy

But not in all parts of the country. The dual monitor (CO and fuel gas) is available only at about half of the 'home improvement' stores around the country - you won't find them where propane is not a widely used fuel - like in large cities. I also seem to remember reading someone writing that they were not available in California at all, but I don't remember where I read it or who wrote it.

Wow. This has been an eye-opening thread. I have a HH with a propylene tank in my basement. Mike, I live in MN, too. Can the tank be stored outside in the cold weather? If I'm not going to use it, can it go in the shed? If we upgrade to a minor, can those tanks be in the basement? Do all tanks have to go outside with special covers to be safe?

The tank MUST be stored outside, ALWAYS (caps for emphasis). It can be in a shed, providing the shed is not physically attached to the house.

Tanks of fuel gas of any kind are not allowed in a house. Period.

Tanks should be always outside, whether in use or not. Keep them in a storage tub - Rubbermaid makes them as do other companies.

Thanks for the info.
I read "Bottom line is you can pipe in propane at a maximum pressure of 20 psi." Does this mean that you should never use a hothead attached to the propylene tank, even if the tank is outside and the hose is brought into the house, since the HH has a higher pressure?
Is the only option to upgrade to the ox/prop outside or use the little mapp tanks inside?

NO.... IT says you can not pipe it in as a permanent installation at a pressure of more than 20 psi. NFPA does not make a ruling for Propane/Propylene/MAPP being brought into studio in a TEMPORARY situation with a hose brought in through a door or window as long as the tank remains outside. Some people have argued this is still not safe, though it is legal. It is up to you if you use this temporary situation. Just remember at end of torch session hose must be disconnected from torch (or hose including torch) must be removed and stored outside.

Here is excerpt from a document in another thread on this board.

The use of a extension hose and bulk tanks is not a use that was ever considered when the Hot Head type torch was designed. Adding the bulk tank of fuel, and a long extension hose is something that has “grown out of necessity”. The necessity of having torch inside and fuel tank outside. Understand that doing this is a “gray area” in fire prevention regulation and you do so at your own risk. I believe this process is inherently safe but does not conform to NFPA rule if you follow the literal interpretation of NFPA writings.

Full document can be found here:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=831

Or here:

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7

Dale M.


Dale

Our house has natural gas which means pilotlights for the heater as well as the hotwater heater. Grey area or not, my propane tank, my hose, my Hot Head and I are staying outside on the deck......and drat, it is cold right now :)

Thanks Dale (and Mike and others) for your warnings about HH and bulktank, it sure has opened my eyes.
_____
Sheila

Well Mike, you might not like my answer to your loaded question but here it is:

I have had an average of 15 lbs of propane in my work area for many, many years now. There was a time when the shop caught fire and the tanks were sooted pretty heavilly but, hey...no explosions resulted.

I keep my tanks up to date is about all I can say in defense. Perhaps I have been lucky or perhaps this is just one more thing that we have overreacted to --like radon and asbestos levels in houses. (Not solely my opinion but the opinion of the health and safety inspector for my county.)

On the flip side I know that propane, being heavier than air, will sink to the floor should a leak develop. The collection of a large quantity near the floor might set up the conditions for an explosion should a serious leak occur. However, I have not ever had a problem since propane seems to dissapate quickly and isn't poisonous to breathe.

But in direct answer to your question: I am lazy! I see no reason to haul tanks in and out every night. They just don't seem any riskier than having a 5 gal jug of fuel for the mower, paint thinner, or that old can of starting fluid in the shop. How many of you store that can of gas outside?

If I am in denial about all this and you have some sound factual data that would prove my indifference wrong, would you please let me know? Oh, and would you please tell me what the hell they use to scent the stuff with? I mean, couldn't they have used roses or lilac scent instead of the garlic/roadkill smell they use??

Thanks for your sincere concerns for us arteeest types. I for one really apprectiate it !

Antonio

Antonio - how about this: what you are doing, is, plain, purely, simply, I-L-L-E-G-A-L.

You risk everything by keeping the tank inside. You got lucky ONCE. You may not get a 2nd chance. And what about the fire fighting professionals? You put them at risk by keeping the propane indoors. Imagine your surprise if you survive the explosion, to find a lawsuit from the families of the fire fighters killed or seriously injured by your negligence. Imagine your surpise when your insurance company cancels your insurance and refuses to pay for any and all damages because of illegal storage of a flammable fuel gas.

Sorry, but I have no time or patience for people who are lazy, in denial or indifferent to the risks and hazards.

If you want factual proof, go read the NFPA rules and regulations. They are adopted nationwide by every city, town, rural area in the U.S. They state quite plainly: Fuel gases such as propane may not be stored, kept inside a residence or attached building to a residence. The maximum amount of tanked fuel gas permitted is two one-pound cylinders.

People who work in separate out-buildings or commercial buildings are still required to follow similar rules, meaning that tanked propane MUST be kept OUTSIDE at all times. There is no waiver for laziness. There is no free pass for people in denial. You don't get permission to not follow the law because of indifference. The law applies to EVERYONE. What you are doing is not only putting yourself at risk and those around you, but you are also putting the entire glassworking community at risk - all it will take is a couple of "accidents" and all of a sudden, the insurance companies and the building inspectors and the building code writers are going to sit up and take notice of "us". So far, we've flown under the radar and have avoided a whole bunch of trouble, just because there have been no "accidents".

[quote=Dale M.]NO.... IT says you can not pipe it in as a permanent installation at a pressure of more than 20 psi. NFPA does not make a ruling for Propane/Propylene/MAPP being brought into studio in a TEMPORARY situation with a hose brought in through a door or window as long as the tank remains outside. Some people have argued this is still not safe, though it is legal. It is up to you if you use this temporary situation. Just remember at end of torch session hose must be disconnected from torch (or hose including torch) must be removed and stored outside.



Thank you for answering the questions. I did read those other articles, and just wanted to make sure I understood.

So for folks who use the oxy/prop solution, those tanks are also stored outside and piped in?

In most cases, Darelyn, yes. There are *some* who won't (see above), but the law states that it *must be*.

Yes.... Propane tank is to remain outside. Only exception is up to 2, 1 pound, cylinders. Anything bigger has to be outside. Yes this applies to tanks used with oxygen/fuel torches. The great thing is that you CAN pipe in propane at a max of 20psi and fuel/oxy torches usually do NOT need that much pressure.

Dale

OK, I think I finally got it. Thanks, all!

I just thought of another question. If I were to upgrade to a minor or some other oxy/prop torch, could I still use my tank of propylene with the oxygen? Or does that need to be another type of propane?

Nortel doesn't really recommend anything other than propane or natural gas. That being said - you can certainly use up what's left, then convert to straight propane when the tank is empty.

Thanks!

Mike,

I'm waiting for my Maine Oxy safety guru to get the hose in for my mini cc. I'm switching from hh with bulk propylene (OUTSIDE and in thru a hose in the window- which I've finally used up) to my mini cc, complete with pressure guage and f.b. arrester. The question is: when Maine Oxy delivered my PROPANE for the mini cc, they hooked up my hh hose to the tank. Not a problem as I haven't done anything with it but my safety guru told me I c*o*u*l*d use my hh with the propane. I asked him about propane going thru the hose that formerly had propylene going thru it and he said it was okay. I have NOT dared to try it but I'm having some torch withdrawals here. Is he right? Can I or should I wait? I want to be as safe as I can.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Sue

So is parking in a yellow zone. My question was: Is it dangerous and can you cite some statistical data which backs your assertions?

Who is asking for you patience?
I want proof that this is dangerous. Not proof that it is illegal.
Your alarmism, thus far, has rendered no proof of your assertion that propane stored indoors is dangerous....other than, of course, it's potential to explode if surrounded by fire. But then, fire is the actual danger , isn't it? I mean I could name a dozen substances that *could* explode should they be exposed to a fire. You still offer nothing but alarmism ...no proof sir.

I suggest you put your mind to the task of finding good, solid evidence that indoor propane has *caused* accidents or is inherently dangerous, and avoid accusation and inuendo. Are you offering yourself up as an expert in these matters? If so, bring on the proof , and spare me the tedious alamism...in your own words we have, "flown under the radar". I take that to mean there have really been few accidents actually *caused* by leaky propane.

Also, what makes 3 gals of propane stored indoors more dangerous than the 100 gallon tanks just outside the window? Sorry, but I just don't get it and suspect it is just another arbitrary rule foisted upon us by some bureaucrat wishing to justify their job security.

Proof sir, not alarmism. Should you provide it I will listen.

Antonio

Antonio,

The only one responsible for the choices you make is you but your decisions affect other people and I'm not sure you have the right to put them at risk by breaking laws, regardless of what your personal opinion of them is. Gee, I don't like the rule so I'm not gonna follow it. I'd think that with one fire that you got lucky on, you'd be the first one hopping onto the safety bandwagon.
Mike made some good points on the insurance and lawsuit issues but there is one he didn't mention. If you are responsible for someone dying, how are you going to live with yourself, especially if you knew you shouldn't have been doing what you did in the first place.

Mike gives us a lot of valuable safety advice on this forum and I, for one, appreciate it. I don't see the sense or need to have him "justify" anything.

Sue