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-   -   Running torch on natural gas question (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314802)

BurningScentsations 2020-07-28 11:56am

Running torch on natural gas question
 
In order to get around propane tanks being lugged to and from my basement, we have natural gas lines down there and the torch I'm looking at says it will run just fine on that.

So, now to the questions:
  1. What kind of connector do I need on the gas line?
  2. Do I need any regulator on the gas line?
  3. Do I just get a plumber to install it?
  4. For surface mix torch, do I really not need a flashback arrester?

Thank you all in advance for your help!

Speedslug 2020-07-30 2:39am

Hi Lloyd.

House hold NG will be at something like 1/4 psi pressures so any kind of regulator is probably not going to able to work with it that low.

I don't use one.

I fitted "black pipe" connectors from one area at my hardware store to a hose nipple from the compressed air fitting area at the same store.
Then I got a 6 or 10 foot section of Bar B Que hose with fitting on both ends and cut one end off, stuck it on the hose nipple ( check the inner diameter of the hose before you buy the nipple){ask me how I know that}, and snugged it up with a hose clamp {belt and suspenders kind of guy, I am}.

Remember that NG has something like one fifth of the BTUs that propane has so working big or working boro is going to be an exercise in patience.

I did the plumbing / piping work myself but the US Navy spent a good chunk of change teaching me about a whole mess of stuff and if you don't feel confident about your own skills then hiring it out is a good idea.
Or your could just pay some one to listen and look at what you plan to do, do it your self and hire them back to look it over afterward before you light up.
Lots of companies will NOT hook up anything they are unfamiliar with due to insurance liabilities.
Depending on the building codes where you live you might be "legally" required to get the whole thing inspected and approved by a fire inspector or the city building inspector.

I put a tee in the line from the back of my gas kitchen stove and put a separate shut off valve there { a good 10 feet or more from the torch bench, so i could shut it off from a safe distance if something went wrong on me} and plumbed more black pipe to the bench.

I tried to use a flash back arrester but I got the kind that have a check valve inside instead of the metal screen and the pressure was not enough to open the valve.
With the screen kind you can blow lightly through either end, with the check valve it only goes one way.


Remember that the fuel connectors have a notch cut at the corners of the nut and spin to tighten in the other direction than regular bolts.

Oh and don't reef down hard on the valves on the torch, or the brass fittings when putting it all together.
The brass is soft to make a good seal by lightly deforming the two surfaces together making a great seal.
If they get crammed too hard they can get damaged threads or matting surfaces and develop leaks.
That can ruin very expensive torches and require factory repair.

Speedslug 2020-07-30 2:53am

OH Yeah, BEFORE I forget ....

You really don't want to work with Propane in a basement anyway.
It is heavier than air and even a tiny leak can pool in a basement until you flip a light switch or it finds the the flame in a furnace or water heater and then it will go boom just like in the movies.
And your insurance company will not cover any of the damages.

AND not only all that but....

Your insurance company could refuse to pay any other kind of claim like water damage from a leaky pipe if they find out that you have more than a one pound can of propane inside your house.
Their lawyers love to find reasons to refuse to pay claims like that.

BurningScentsations 2020-07-30 6:50am

Phil,

Thank you very much for your help. As always, you are a fount of knowledge.

The way you describe your setup is how I was envisioning it too, but wasn't sure if there was a better way. (I remember how we hooked up our bunson burners in chemistry lab in high school, and figured this would work the same way.)

I'll definitely be hiring out to have the work done. Would a plumber be who I call? I will definitely check the inner diameter of the hose :)

Have a great day,

Lloyd

msy439 2020-07-30 8:03pm

Call HVAC professional and have them set up a shut off valve at the pipe connection and you will have shut off at your torch for added safety.

Speedslug 2020-07-31 12:01pm

Aye, MSY439 has the way of it.

We use the term 'plumbed lines' but it's HVAC folks that work with gas lines.

LarryC 2020-07-31 2:11pm

propane is too hazardous to use in a basement? Haha....Complete nonsense. Just understand the issues and do it responsibly. There are perfectly safe ways to do this and many many artists do. Im tired of the misinformation being shared here as gospel.

BurningScentsations 2020-08-01 7:08am

MSY439,

Thank you very much for the info. I never would have thought that the HVAC folks would do that. That's a great piece of information.

Phiil, Thanks again for all your help!

Larry,

Thanks for your reply. I know it can be done. I did it years the first time around when I had my studio. I might still use propane again, but would like to improve the safety of it nonetheless.

Maybe keep the propane outside until I need it. I'll need quick connectors to disconnect the hose since I don't want to strip the threads by constantly unscrewing them.

Do these exist for tanks. I know the quick connects do exist for the torch side of the house.


Thanks again everyone!

LarryC 2020-08-02 10:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningScentsations (Post 5079122)

Larry,

Thanks for your reply. I know it can be done. I did it years the first time around when I had my studio. I might still use propane again, but would like to improve the safety of it nonetheless.

Maybe keep the propane outside until I need it. I'll need quick connectors to disconnect the hose since I don't want to strip the threads by constantly unscrewing them.

Do these exist for tanks. I know the quick connects do exist for the torch side of the house.


Thanks again everyone!

There are a lot of excellent safety related resources online. If your interested in how professionals safely run Propane indoors please contact the glass artist community on facebook in the various groups that exist there. Also there is an active glass artist forum at talkglass.com as well. There are good reasons why this forum has been a ghost town for years.

BurningScentsations 2020-08-05 9:00pm

Larry,

Thank you very much. I'll be sure to check that out.

Lloyd

KJohn 2020-08-06 3:23pm

I've considered doing that, I would love to know how it turns out with your torch, which one did you decide on?

BurningScentsations 2020-08-19 6:21am

Kristin,

I'm doing propane at least for now. It is so much simpler and a known quality of heat. I've got the Alpha Torch sitting in my basement and the oxycon. Waiting on several more shipments including the kiln. That's going to be a while!

Natural gas was so many unknowns and what if it wasn't hot enough for me or there were pressure problems? Probably wouldn't be, but wasn't sure.

Plus hubby was afraid an odd gas valve in the basement might hurt resale value down the road.

Maybe we worry too much!

LochGlassBeads 2020-08-26 6:11am

I wonder what PSI a normal gas line to a house is, & what a torch needs. Is there variation on this state by state? Or even city by city?

msy439 2020-08-26 7:55pm

I run a minor on natural gas at 1\4 PSI with a 10 liter oxycon,I cannot work Boro or do sculptures but I dont want to so this is good set up for me. I f you need to run hotter you need to work with propane. you can check with your gas company on the PSI in your area.

Alaska 2020-08-29 4:14pm



One can locate the pressure delivered to the house by looking for pressure information as located on the gas meter regulator. Different models may have the data in various locations. In this case it is on the end cap of the regulator.

At my location it is 6.5 to 7.5 WC (water column) which converts to .235 to .271 PSI or about 1/4 PSI. To convert WC to PSI search for the converter on the web.

armo 2020-10-29 7:53am

Liquefied Natural Gas and oxygen setup
 
Hi, all. Im from Brasil and Im trying to setup a small studio to work with glass. Since I don not have access to any kind of surface mix burner, I bought one that is used for brassing or welding copper tubes. Now the problem: I do not know why this torch keeps popping (and it is a louding pop!) every time that I lite it up. Normally I start with all gas valves closed and open the butane valve, when I lit the butane ist happens, a loud pop. I looked here but since english is not my first language possible Ive missed it. Can anyone help me on this subject?
Alfredo

armo 2020-10-29 8:17am

Another question that I have is why the tip of the torch is at higer temperature after few minutes using it? I think a little warm up is natural but it heats up until it glows...do not looks like a natural thing to happens

Speedslug 2020-10-29 10:31am

No sure what to tell you about the popping.

The hot torch head is because the gas is not coming out fast enough to push the flame away from the metal.

Give the fuel more flow so that the torch does not get hot.

armo 2020-10-29 6:19pm

Thanks a lot!! I will try this tomorow morning.
Alfredo

juniemoon 2021-01-28 10:27am

I work a cricket on natural gas and two oxycons. I can work Boro melting it fairly quickly, I don't see much difference but I don't work Boro as a rule anyway.
I called a plumber, they came ran hose to my torch and attatched to basement ceiling and installed shut off near torch. $400.00 . That was over a decade ago. No pressure problems.....So easy, so happy for it to installed professionally and to stop making those trips for propane

Juniemoon


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