Lampwork Etc.

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-   -   Devardi cracks (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145643)

Kalera 2009-11-20 10:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2758837)
It seems that you're the one who has an agenda here Pam. Why on earth would I? I just kindly asked for you to help out some fellow lampworkers that have questions on other current threads. You've had plenty of opportunity to post here on this particular thread.

Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2758822)
I'm not "new", and it's not me that wants answers Kalera. All I wanted her to do was to take a moment to help others right now that have posts asking questions about glass. She's been so kind as to answer some questions here on this thread... why doesn't she do the same for the other current questions? That's all.

Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2758794)
There are posts right now concerning other glasses that people are having problems with. It would be nice if you could help them out too.

Thanks - Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2758676)
Exactly. Why haven't we heard any explanations on some of the other glasses that are having problems? There are posts reporting the same stuff as here. Please let us know the answers to those questions also. Thanks you.

Jack


Seriously now. What's up with that?

andreajane 2009-11-20 10:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758863)
If you find a product that is 1/4 the cost of others, and works at least half as well, would you use it?

Absolutely not, and I mean that in equal seriousness. "Works at least half as well" as a general standard is completely unacceptable to me.

Quote:

If you wanted to continue using that product, and it seemed like a lot of people who had never used that product were very negative about it, calling it worthless and saying to throw it away and never use it again, might you respond saying you liked it?
Yes, if I liked it I would respond saying I liked it, and saying why. Hopefully I'd stop there.

Quote:

I've had a few very unpleasant responses made to me in this thread. I have not posted in kind. I don't post on any other forums. I only read here and WC.

Devardi is like a toddler. It can be really, really amazing stuff. It's highly imperfect in form. If you are willing to spend some time playing and working with it, you can have some great results. If you expect it to do what you want, every time, you need to forget using any other glass than bullseye-which is like the full grown lady of glass :)
I've never used Bullseye.

I don't want to have to coddle glass when I use it. To me that's different than figuring out HOW to use it.


Andrea

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 10:21am

The next time someone replies to me saying anything about screaming or yelling again, replying in all caps, conspiracies again, or acting like God, I'll be using the word "liar". All of those things have been posted in response to me in this thread, and none of them have been backed up.

Please, if someone wants to accuse someone else of something after replying to me, start a new thread. Or at least clarify that I am not the subject of said admonishment.

Thank you.

tracidawn78 2009-11-20 10:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758821)
Check out the diamond clear and the artichokey threads, please. They could use your input as well, I'm sure. I hope you are just as thorough as you are in this one.

I don't know about the artichokey thread because I haven't seen that one, but Pam was a huge help in the original DC thread. She posted several times. Pam is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to glass chemistry and issues I can't even begin to understand. She's sincerely trying to help, and I don't understand why there is backlash against her.

J&M 2009-11-20 10:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758868)
Seriously now. What's up with that?

Sincere and non-demanding questions for a person who has a wealth of knowledge that I believe would be helpful to the other questions that are now being asked in Tips & Techniques. That's "What's up with that" Kalera.

Jack

Kalera 2009-11-20 10:27am

I realize the question was directed toward Andrea, but I would never for a moment consider wasting my time on a glass (or anything, really) that worked "half as well". Say, a car that only started half the time, or only got me halfway to where I wanted to go... LOL! A fridge that keeps things half as cold... a shovel that only turns half the dirt. Maybe a computer that only connects to the internet half the time... Hee! Nope.

That said, there's no reason not to use cheap glass to experiment with or learn on, and at least by the time you graduate to better glass you'll be an expert in dealing with problems.

Kalera 2009-11-20 10:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2758882)
Sincere and non-demanding questions for a person who has a wealth of knowledge that I believe would be helpful to the other questions that are now being asked in Tips & Techniques. That's "What's up with that" Kalera.

Jack


:lol: Well. Four times seems pretty demanding. After the second time it came across more like "I don't like what you're saying, shut up and get out of this thread". By the fourth time, I was starting to really wonder. Especially given how vastly helpful she's been in many, many other threads, including similar threads to those which can be easily searched by anyone with an interest.

Just sayin'.

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreajane (Post 2758872)
Absolutely not, and I mean that in equal seriousness. "Works at least half as well" as a general standard is completely unacceptable to me.



Yes, if I liked it I would respond saying I liked it, and saying why. Hopefully I'd stop there.



I've never used Bullseye.

I don't want to have to coddle glass when I use it. To me that's different than figuring out HOW to use it.


Andrea

1) completely fair. Everyone has their willingness level to do things.

2) imagine you do say you like it and why, and the other people-who have never even seen said product-keep on going, and then more folks with that mindset appear saying similar, negative things. You still really like the product, and are concerned-because it happens, especially on these forums-that the group of non users will drown out the lesser known supporters. Can you see some of the lesser knowns taking similar tactics to the more well knowns? Plus, there is some back story here-not in the posts present. nastiness from both sides, in all honesty.

3) If you don't want to coddle glass, Bullseye is your buddy :) Most COE 104 users who try it just love it since it's not so persnickety.

J&M 2009-11-20 10:31am

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I'm through wasting my time on your argumentative posts Kalera. Find someone else and waste their time. Thank you.

Jack

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 10:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758887)
I realize the question was directed toward Andrea, but I would never for a moment consider wasting my time on a glass (or anything, really) that worked "half as well". Say, a car that only started half the time, or only got me halfway to where I wanted to go... LOL! A fridge that keeps things half as cold... a shovel that only turns half the dirt. Maybe a computer that only connects to the internet half the time... Hee! Nope.

That said, there's no reason not to use cheap glass to experiment with or learn on, and at least by the time you graduate to better glass you'll be an expert in dealing with problems.

You drive a Volvo, and use a Mac? Windows OS has a lot more problems than Macintosh does. Aren't Volvos known for their reliability?

I should have been more clear, I apologize.

Glass that costs 1/4 the price, but is more difficult to actually use. Say twice as hard as easy italian glass colors. Hard to phrase well in half, but I think you can see what I mean.

yellowbird 2009-11-20 10:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758887)
I realize the question was directed toward Andrea, but I would never for a moment consider wasting my time on a glass (or anything, really) that worked "half as well". Say, a car that only started half the time, or only got me halfway to where I wanted to go... LOL! A fridge that keeps things half as cold... a shovel that only turns half the dirt. Maybe a computer that only connects to the internet half the time... Hee! Nope.

That said, there's no reason not to use cheap glass to experiment with or learn on, and at least by the time you graduate to better glass you'll be an expert in dealing with problems.

very funny Karlera:lol::lol::lol:

andreajane 2009-11-20 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758891)
1) completely fair. Everyone has their willingness level to do things.

Consistency and reliability tend to be reflected in how much things cost. Not always, but often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758891)
2) imagine you do say you like it and why, and the other people-who have never even seen said product-keep on going, and then more folks with that mindset appear saying similar, negative things. You still really like the product, and are concerned-because it happens, especially on these forums-that the group of non users will drown out the lesser known supporters. Can you see some of the lesser knowns taking similar tactics to the more well knowns? Plus, there is some back story here-not in the posts present. nastiness from both sides, in all honesty.

I haven't seen it this way. I wasn't in on this from the beginning, I understand a lot of information has been deleted, which makes me wonder even more, but most of the time when people post problems they are having with glass, people either commiserate or try to help. The Devardi discussions have gone way past that and I was just giving my overall impression in my first post here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758891)
3) If you don't want to coddle glass, Bullseye is your buddy :) Most COE 104 users who try it just love it since it's not so persnickety.

Thanks for the recommendation, but I have invested time in other 104 glass and I like it. Since I've figured out a few things about the glass I already like and already work with, I have relatively predictable outcomes at the torch. No coddling is necessary once I learn what I need to know in order to best use my tools and materials.


Andrea

Kalera 2009-11-20 10:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758899)
You drive a Volvo, and use a Mac? Windows OS has a lot more problems than Macintosh does. Aren't Volvos known for their reliability?

I should have been more clear, I apologize.

Glass that costs 1/4 the price, but is more difficult to actually use. Say twice as hard as easy italian glass colors. Hard to phrase well in half, but I think you can see what I mean.

Actually, yes, I do drive a Volvo 940 wagon, and I am posting this from a Mac. :lol:

And no, I would not use glass that was twice as difficult to use, regardless of how cheap it was, unless it had a very significant payoff like being twice as beautiful. If it was twice as beautiful I might buy it and take the extra time to figure out how to work with it, even if it cost twice as much.

But no, I would not pay less for glass that is just OK, but twice as hard to use. For me, the extra time spent at the torch fussing with difficult glass would more than eat up any cost savings, so unless it's really worth my while in extra beauty, it would actually be costing me money in lost productivity. Not to mention lost patience. #-o

Lisi 2009-11-20 10:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758887)
Say, a car that only started half the time, or only got me halfway to where I wanted to go... LOL! A fridge that keeps things half as cold... a shovel that only turns half the dirt. Maybe a computer that only connects to the internet half the time... Hee! Nope.

Kalera, this is totally getting off the subject (sort of), but what you stated here got me thinking about a few things in my life, and I got to laughing so hard I almost inhaled my coffee!

I do have all of those things right now! LOL!!!!

1) a car that starts half of the time, the solenoid sticks and I have to get out and bang it, ugh...

2) a fridge that is screw-off, the ice maker gets stuck so watch out when you open the freezer door!

3) my garden tiller needs a tune-up as it chokes and sputters, and useless me can barely use a shovel to turn this rock/dirt we S FL folks have...

4) my internet - hah! Daughter has my laptop for the last month now, and I've got the ol' Dinosaur Desktop! :rolleyes:

;) :D

Firemagic 2009-11-20 10:43am

First of all, Kalera, the devardi people NEVER said their glass was "a higher quality" than any other glass. They did say it was more saturatated with color only, which I tend to find to be true. You wouldn't know because you haven't used it. But don't put words in their mouth. You wonder why they got defensive last year when a lot of you did the very same thing.

There’s a big difference in those on both sides of this argument, other than the fact that they disagree with each other. Those that favor the glass, all of them have tried it. Of those who oppose it, I can see only maybe a couple have used it. Even the gal that started this thread says she will continue to use it, but just ran into a problem with some particular combinations with other glass. So, those that use the glass tend to love it. Those that haven’t, well how can you trust their opinion? They make no sense. How can you try to discredit a glass that you haven't tried?

The thing is, those of you on this thread and others that oppose the glass were rude to the Devardi people when they first entered the market. You gave them the third degree and berated them as though they were doing something wrong bringing this glass to marked. But that’s ok with you. Then, the Devardi people were defensive back to defend themselves, which you refer to as rude. Mixed up, man!!! And that wasn’t ok with you. You didn't see it as ok to defend themselves. So now your intent is to discredit the glass because they defended themselves. That’s what this is all about. It’s not about the glass. Most of you have never even used it. It’s about you not standing for anyone that defends themselves against your offensiveness.

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreajane (Post 2758906)
Consistency and reliability tend to be reflected in how much things cost. Not always, but often.



I haven't seen it this way. I wasn't in on this from the beginning, I understand a lot of information has been deleted, which makes me wonder even more, but most of the time when people post problems they are having with glass, people either commiserate or try to help. The Devardi discussions have gone way past that and I was just giving my overall impression in my first post here.



Thanks for the recommendation, but I have invested time in other 104 glass and I like it. Since I've figured out a few things about the glass I already like and already work with, I have relatively predictable outcomes at the torch. No coddling is necessary once I learn what I need to know in order to best use my tools and materials.


Andrea

Do you use silver glass and/or odd lots? I don't use odd lots myself because I like to be able to get the same glass regularly and that isn't often the case when or if they remake one. Silver glass I tend to be willing to work out, even with batch variations. Each color is a whole new ball game, but it's fun.

Just like those things I mentioned, once you figure it out, it's the same thing with devardi. Usually, like most pinks from anyone and handpulled glass, it's work it cool if you have problems. I don't "coddle" devardi. I just consider "frit on a stick" rods much more difficult to work with.

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 10:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758914)
Actually, yes, I do drive a Volvo 940 wagon, and I am posting this from a Mac. :lol:

And no, I would not use glass that was twice as difficult to use, regardless of how cheap it was, unless it had a very significant payoff like being twice as beautiful. If it was twice as beautiful I might buy it and take the extra time to figure out how to work with it, even if it cost twice as much.

But no, I would not pay less for glass that is just OK, but twice as hard to use. For me, the extra time spent at the torch fussing with difficult glass would more than eat up any cost savings, so unless it's really worth my while in extra beauty, it would actually be costing me money in lost productivity. Not to mention lost patience. #-o

Someone has to be that person ;)

Check out the semi opaques from devardi sometime. Many of them are just gorgeous-and those are what makes it worth the effort to me.

andreajane 2009-11-20 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758919)
Do you use silver glass and/or odd lots? I don't use odd lots myself because I like to be able to get the same glass regularly and that isn't often the case when or if they remake one. Silver glass I tend to be willing to work out, even with batch variations. Each color is a whole new ball game, but it's fun.

Just like those things I mentioned, once you figure it out, it's the same thing with devardi. Usually, like most pinks from anyone and handpulled glass, it's work it cool if you have problems. I don't "coddle" devardi. I just consider "frit on a stick" rods much more difficult to work with.

I do use odd lots and silver glass, and I agree, once I figured some things out about them, they were fun to use. I was responding to what you said about Devardi working half as well, and about it being like a toddler. If you misspoke before when you said those things, and you are now saying Devardi is just like other glasses (besides the "mom" Bullseye) then I am truly confused, and I think I'll just go back to reading.


Andrea

Kalera 2009-11-20 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisi (Post 2758915)
Kalera, this is totally getting off the subject (sort of), but what you stated here got me thinking about a few things in my life, and I got to laughing so hard I almost inhaled my coffee!

I do have all of those things right now! LOL!!!!

1) a car that starts half of the time, the solenoid sticks and I have to get out and bang it, ugh...

2) a fridge that is screw-off, the ice maker gets stuck so watch out when you open the freezer door!

3) my garden tiller needs a tune-up as it chokes and sputters, and useless me can barely use a shovel to turn this rock/dirt we S FL folks have...

4) my internet - hah! Daughter has my laptop for the last month now, and I've got the ol' Dinosaur Desktop! :rolleyes:

;) :D

Oh Lisi! OMG you made me laugh so hard! I feel bad for laughing, but the ice-maker part... :lol: :lol: :lol: I hope you aren't stuck with all those half-working things for too long!

Kalera 2009-11-20 10:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firemagic (Post 2758917)
First of all, Kalera, the devardi people NEVER said their glass was "a higher quality" than any other glass.

They most certainly did, when they stated that the other glass on the market was cutting corners by not making as saturated a glass. By saying other products are inferior, the inference is that their product is superior. There were a lot of interesting statements in those original auctions.

They made a lot of statements that were unfounded and got defensive when they were called on them. And they got insulting. Then they deleted their posts. I didn't delete any of mine, because I didn't say anything I felt the need to hide.

Kalera 2009-11-20 10:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758924)
Someone has to be that person ;)

Check out the semi opaques from devardi sometime. Many of them are just gorgeous-and those are what makes it worth the effort to me.

There are tons of other semi-opaque glasses on the market that don't require fussing with, so I don't really have an incentive to.

Lisi 2009-11-20 11:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758930)
Oh Lisi! OMG you made me laugh so hard! I feel bad for laughing, but the ice-maker part... :lol: :lol: :lol: I hope you aren't stuck with all those half-working things for too long!

It's been like that for 3 weeks, and when my neighbors had a BBQ on Veteran's Day, I had told them two days before to not waste their money on ice for their beer coolers, I had plenty already bagged up and more coming! LOL!!!

We have been putting up with it because my husband had been home from work more this past couple of weeks and doing yardwork. He gets hot and sweaty, and puts all that ice-water to use! But we are probably going to disconnect it tonight. It is going to be a pain tapping off the water that leads to the thing. hehe

chrissij 2009-11-20 11:05am

I think EVERYONE should drive a Volvo...

chrissij 2009-11-20 11:09am

and I'll go on record and tell everyone why I won't buy it.

1) I've found the "you get what you pay for" cliche to be rooted in truth.
2) I think the owners are complete and total assholes. My opinion; entitled to it.

Kalera 2009-11-20 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissij (Post 2758962)
I think EVERYONE should drive a Volvo...

:lol:

Most of Portland seems to think the same thing!

chrissij 2009-11-20 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758975)
:lol:

Most of Portland seems to think the same thing!

I've lost count of the number of my customers who have moved there...and this just reminded me I owe one of them an email about her ABS controller. Eeeek!

Hayley 2009-11-20 11:25am

Kalera and Chris - one of our cars is a Volvo 950! The other is a Mini Cooper - great city car for San Francisco.

And we are both a Mac household and a Mac office! ;-)

I second the "you get what you pay for" sentiment!

Firemagic 2009-11-20 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758941)
They most certainly did, when they stated that the other glass on the market was cutting corners by not making as saturated a glass. By saying other products are inferior, the inference is that their product is superior.

Saturation of color has nothing to do with glass quality. This is the same twisting of words you tried last year that caused the Devardi people to defend themselves.

You need to be careful how thick you use some of the Devardi transparent colors over opaque bases because they can be so saturated, they can cover the base color. The glass does tend to be more saturated, I have found. That has nothing to do with the quality of glass that tends to not be that saturated. It also does not say that other glass companies are cutting corners. It just says that other companies may not make their glass as saturated.

andreajane 2009-11-20 11:52am

But why would one glassmaker make negative remarks about another glassmaker? If the glass is good AND cheap, trust me when I say this community will find it and use it without the makers needing to say anything else about what anyone else is doing.


Andrea

Kalera 2009-11-20 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firemagic (Post 2759049)
Saturation of color has nothing to do with glass quality. This is the same twisting of words you tried last year that caused the Devardi people to defend themselves.

You need to be careful how thick you use some of the Devardi transparent colors over opaque bases because they can be so saturated, they can cover the base color. The glass does tend to be more saturated, I have found. That has nothing to do with the quality of glass that tends to not be that saturated. It also does not say that other glass companies are cutting corners. It just says that other companies may not make their glass as saturated.

I didn't twist any words, Dan, and you know it. The wording in your auctions now is different from the original wording. Lots of other people saw and remember: lying about it now doesn't make you look any more honest.


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