Deb, That comment was made by me, "only" to lightened things up on this thread. I saw where it was headed.
As far as I was concerned, Haley's report on Devardi glass was welcomed. The only thing I ever questioned was why others stated they had used the identical same glass and same silver glass and "Never" had any problems whatsoever. I also critized her for taking the same posts about her results to other forums, without further testing. I don't think that is out of line. You might, or she might, but I do not.
As far as the Devardi people go, they have shown every respect possible to customers and potential customers.
And, talking about attitudes and immaturity, in the earlier Devardi posts, we tried to post pics. of the beads and discuss the glass. It was impossible! Everyone was verbally assaulted. It was not about the glass, in several cases. Some had other adjendas.
Finally, a new thread had to be created, because of all the arguments. Many were newbies, just posting and riding the coat tails of some of the more experienced lampworkers. They were there for the fun of it all, and to cheer their friend on.
I can honestly tell you. I know Daniel and Natasha now. I respect them very much.
The business is striving. The glass shipment have been increased constantly. Devardi glass is here to stay. Live with it!
Jim Clark

"I'm sick to death of hearing these stupid conspiracy theories about lampworkers and other glass suppliers trying to sabotage Devardi. It's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard."

Not according to the folks on the Torch Bugs website. Go there and look at "Lampworking: COE 104 glass" and read the thread called "!!!DEVARDI!!!. It's only 37 PAGES LONG. That should give you some idea of the kind of people they are. Some of the "most respected" even call it "the D word". Give me a break. There's even another glass supplier posting insulting comments!

Ludicrous... I think not. Again, it's just MHO.

Jack

:pout: All this conspiracy talk...and no Mel Gibson (before he went off the edge). It's just not right.

Good one! =D>

Her post was accurate, honest and relevant no matter where or how many times she posted it. It doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not.


Not from where I was sitting.

The verbal assaults that came out in the original thread went both ways and was fueled by Daniels and a couple of others behavior towards people who were simply asking questions about the glass. It only deteriorated after that and continues to do so. Again, the very same questions that have been asked of every single glass manufacturer and/or supplier that has ever come on the scene. Devardi was not singled out, nor was anyone trying to sabotage their business. I think it's a crying shame that Devardi didn't handle themselves better. It could have went a long way towards gaining the respect of the community no matter the problems with the glass.

And you'll also notice that no one crashed that new fun thread with negativity. Because that wasn't anyone's intention.

First of all, and I'll repeat it again, I, nor anyone else is out to sabotage their business. If the business is thriving I say, good for them. It does not bother me in the least if they are successful.

Second, again repeating myself, I would have a great deal more respect for what you had to say had you not inserted "Live with it!" at the end.

Those 3 short words just shot your opinion and your whole point all to hell in my opinion.

And it's that attitude, the point that I've been trying to hammer into you and the Devardi people from the beginning, that does more harm than good. So, if you think you're helping them, you're not. Leaving those 3 little words out of it, would have made a whole world of difference in how you and The Devardi people are perceived.

My point about the Lauscha clear cracking was actually to point out that if I go by certain posts in this thread, its not to be trusted and I could never sell any beads made with Lauscha clear because it may, at some point in the future, crack. How many people out there use this glass regularly and sell it to their customers? I am not being argumentative, I am just pointing out that with that kind of reasoning none of us could ever use any glass that is out there because it some of it may crack in the future. How do we know what will and won't? Do we hold all of our beads for x amount of time before selling?

And I don't think that I was attacking anyone.

Let me ask you this. There is a perfectly civil thread going on about Devardi and its pros and cons, and so far the discussions seem to be open and honest, with people saying that yes there are certain issues and other people saying, hey this worked for me, maybe that is the solution for that issue etc. Why was this question not posted over in that thread that is clearly intended to address that type of issue with this glass?

Well, seeing as how I own the Torcbugs website, I have read the Devardi thread. And I'd like to point out, AGAIN, that that thread was started after the initial thread here on LE. After the Devardi people had insulted a bunch of people. They weren't acting out against Devardi. They were REACTING to Devardi. There's a world of difference.

Perhaps because of the length of that thread, and starting another thread, for one specific problem, was considered to be more effective by the OP.

And my point was, it's all about how the manufacturers, suppliers, supporters etc. of said glass behave towards those who have complaints about their glass. Not all about the glass itself.

From Bullseye's site:

"Certain glasses – reds, yellows and oranges in particular – have a tendency to shift their internal chemistry when fired for extended times, more than once, or to temperatures higher than a typical full fuse (1450 – 1500F). They may, under these conditions, become incompatible. With these glasses, the test is therefore performed (on the same chip) three times."

http://www.bullseyeglass.com/weblog/...se-of-the-fun/

I'd think we could use the temperature range as a cause for incompatibility, since they do. It's my understanding that flowing glass is in that range.

I'm not saying I go for the cool glass working prevents cracking theory, as I haven't experienced it, but if BE says it, doesn't it make it a possibility?

And they say over and over again that COE and compatibility aren't as simple as matching the numbers.

I know you own that site. You should go read it again and see all of the nonsense that was written by your members. Talk about insults! Geez. They're the same ones who attacked Natasha so bad that her husband had to come on the LE thread to defend her. Anyone would do the same for their spouse. This thread, just like the one months ago is starting to get WAY out of hand. I suggest that everyone go and read the T.B. thread and make your own conclusions. That's all.

Jack

Nothing will be accompolished by reliving the old Devardi thread. I do find it amusing, however, the ones that post and seem to think they are the authorities of "right and wrong" on this thread, are the very ones that have never tried this glass. Is it for the sake of argument, or Internet debate? I, truly, am interested to know. Most of them only give opinions, and rant on with their long posts, but have contributed nothing to the thread.
I, for one, want to hear any results concerning glass, any glass. I want to hear the good, as well as the bad, about Devardi glass. I think that is what most of us are here for. Constructive criticism is welcomed. We will learn from it. I hate to see old topics from this thread revived. I think it would be more constructive to move on. Just my humble opinion.
Jim
Jim

That is a caution for people doing multiple, extended or high kiln firings of the same piece repeatedly. It has never been an issue with flameworked BE.

exactly, thank you.

Do I have to say it again? That thread was a reaction to the behavior of the Devardi people. EVERYONE was already pissed off, and with good reason.

Nobody attacked Natasha. I saw the whole thing as it happened and before posts were deleted BY Daniel and Natasha. Natasha got upset, overwhelmed and over-emotional simply because she couldn't answer and wasn't prepared to answer the questions that were being asked. No one insulted her! The insults started with the Devardi crew. Bad behavior begets like behavior. That's just the way it is. You can't insult people and expect them to love you for it.

The Devardi people could still turn this around in their favor if they would just listen. Just like bad behavior begets like behavior, respect gains respect right back.

Seriously, I was initially very happy with Drafly's previous post to me which appeared to be respectful until the end. Those 3 words at the end negated anything he had to say as far as I'm concerned. Because he just did what I've been trying to tell you all is the worst possible way to defend Devardi and does more harm than good.

Let me give you an example. Let's take Shawnette's posts about Devardi glass. Her opinion about Devardi glass goes a lot further with me simply because she states her opinion about the glass without insulting anyone who has or has had issues with it. When I read opinions like that, I start leaning toward, well... maybe I should give it a try. But then I keep reading and in charges the Devardi crew with the same behavior insults and I remember why I won't try Devardi.

If that doesn't make sense to you and the Devardi people then there's nothing left to say because you're just not getting it.

I disagree. I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that if kilnforming can cause changes in the glass composition that flameworking can as well. Flameworkers can have the glass going through many heating and cooling cycles for 30 minutes, an hour, longer even, and they are getting it hotter than the kiln range given. And the bullseye link doesn't use "and", it uses "or", telling me that they say any of those things can cause a change significant enough to impact stability in a piece.

Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with the cool working=no cracking thing, since I haven't had cracking problems and I don't work cool. I'm just saying that even bullseye lays a logical foundation for the possibility.

Well that's just it isn't it? As soon as someone shares the bad, they get attacked and accused of intentionally trying to sabotage a business. It's pathetic.

1. 30 minutes or an hour is not a long time in the kilnforming world, and

2. in lampworking, glass is not held in the fully-molten state for those periods of time. Glass at 1500+ would simply run off the mandrel.

Those of us who use BE extensively in flameworking, and have for many years, have never had that problem arise, which indicates that in a good-quality glass it's not an issue for our application.

Everyone attacked Natasha and you know it. And what's this "you Devardi people" stuff? Out of all the glass that I use, Devardi is the least used of all. What kind of person are you? Are you a Moretti person? Are you a Lauscha person? Please, let everyone know so we all know what to call YOU.

Jack

They aren't old topics if there was no resolution. They'll remain an ongoing topic until there is resolution. Some have made personal resolutions to never purchase Devardi glass because of the old, yet ongoing topics. It is only truly constructive to move on if the initial problems have been resolved. Apparently many believe that the glass quality is improving. One hopes that with more sales the Devardi staff are reaping the benefits in increased wages, and better working conditions. What hasn't changed is the owners, who, IMNSHO showed their asses SO BADLY that I don't blame them at all for not wanting to face the firing squad ready to do them in. However, turning tail, deleting their posts, and never darkening the LE doorway to make amends, DID cost them a great deal of business.

And before anyone says "they were badgered into defending themselves", that's your perception, and even if that were the case, defense doesn't necessitate offensive, snide, and vindictive behavior.

I, personally, saw honest questioning; I saw reasonable hesitance to buy into the "it's the greatest thing since sliced bread" that was being voiced by newer members; I saw apologies; I saw more honest questioning; I witnessed "off the charts nastiness" from the owners of the company directed at who I assume they should consider to be their target audience. Many saw what I saw. Your perception may differ. The bottom line is simple. People like to spend their money with people they like.

I don't give a hoot whether or not Devardi is here to stay. Who cares? What I do care about is how Devardi's staunch supporters seek to discredit, and demean, anyone who doesn't agree with them.

As far as the glass goes...

I think some of the colors are pretty. I think Jack has made some pretty beads.

I'll let you and everyone here know if they do crack or crumble in the future. It's been 9 or so months since they were made... I give you my word to post if they do ever crack.

Jack

1) agreed

2) What I'm seeing for working temp for moretti showed 1700. You are completely correct about the length of time held fully molten, but when you apply glass to the mandrel, add it, and melt it in, it's fully molten-at least parts of it are.

I'm not comparing devardi's quality to BE. That is apples and oranges. I'm using the information they have posted for a situation, and to me, it applies to torchworking.

I feel like I can compare devardi's quality to that of moretti/effetre/vetrofond. Many of the problems experienced with italian glass are very similar to those being reported by devardi users. shocky, check. hates to be encased, check. Alabastros and opalinos anyone? Personally, I gave up on those branches years ago, lol. Too much hassle. My problems with devardi have not been enough for me to feel that way.

I don't see a lot of posts in other "glass cracking" threads saying to chuck the whole line of glass, it's worthless. I don't see as many posters in those threads saying that kind of thing who have never used the glass in question. That's what gets people's dander up-and what started the arguing in this thread.

No. I know what I saw.

You Devardi people, meaning the manufacturers, suppliers and plugs that create new usernames just to come in and insult anyone who doesn't say only positive things about Devardi.

But since you asked, you can all me one of the, Moretti, Lauscha, CIM, TAG, Precision, StrikingColor, Vetrofond, Double Helix, ASK, Reichenbach, and future BE people. I use them all.

You know, all those manufacturers who answered all the questions and didn't insult their customers for daring to ask.

I love them...

okay, clearly I missed some things in the past which may explain the strong feelings both ways. I did not see the original thread so I have no idea what was said and not said or by whom. I am not going to say anymore other than to say that for me personally, I really like it and will continue to work with it unless that changes.

I've never seen moretti, lauscha, reichenbach, ask, or vetrofond folks post answering all the questions.

I've seen some suppliers answer many of them, like Frantz, for example. I've seen many small business folks shoot themselves in the foot when posting in these forums, and my buying habits reflect those opinions.

I don't see "lasucha cracks" threads going after the vendors, even the universally questionable ones.

I know exactly what to call you. The only person really insulting people is you I'm sorry to say.

Jack

I ought to send you the bits I have left, lol. All burned and boiley, too ;)

The Semi-opaque white and pink remind me a lot of the opalinos, but they are much more user friendly, I think. Haven't played as much with the pink, though, as I have the white.

And no one is going to condemn or insult or dislike you for liking Devardi Sonja. :)

And that's exactly why you'll never get it.

I got it a long time ago. By you and all of your cohorts my dear. Thank you very much.

Jack

Oh there have been plenty of vendors called to the table for their behavior. Perhaps you aren't looking hard enough or don't want to see it. That way you can continue to accuse people of some conspiracy to sabotage Devardi and ignore the rest.

LOL. I can only shake my head.

Just work it cooler...like you do your Devardi. :poke:

Good. I'm glad we can come to a mutual understanding.

Jack

My post said I haven't seen people condemning an entire line of glass due to the behavior of the vendor, saying the product was worthless and to throw it away.

Natasha and Daniel did make some poor decisions when they first posted, I think. I weighed that against the "new vendor" and added in the sheer vehemence of the arguments against them. I gave them some leeway based on that factor. Anyone can show their ass once in a while, and I, personally, felt that there was some level of justifiable response from them.

I waited to see how Natasha and Daniel would behave over time, because I won't support vendors behaving poorly for much time. When the next shipment came in, and they still hadn't been on the boards, I bought some of the glass.

And please show me where I have accused anyone of conspiring to sabotage Devardi.

Neither Effetre nor Vetrofond have problems cracking if they are worked hot, though. That seems to be strictly a Devardi attribute, and frankly, one that baffles me. It doesn't seem to me to make sense than any properly batched glass should become incompatible with itself from being worked hot in the flame.

I do not have a problem working Devardi Glass hot. I use a Cricket and 10 LPM Generator.
A few colors have to be introduced slowly into the flame, but I now use a rod warmer and have no problems.

Hi Kalera. How are you? Jim

I do see what you are saying, but since I haven't had cracking to speak of with this glass, I can't say this is an issue. I do work hot. I may burn my colors (pink-pretty much a guarantee), but I haven't seen this cracking due to working hot thing. I'm just saying even BE posts a logical reason for heating glass causing changes in its compatibility.

As it's not a problem I've experienced, I asked annealing questions.

Not you personally, just some people in particular.

I personally tend to suspect that cracking issues are more likely annealing temperature or compatibility issues, but various people keep bringing it up as a reason for cracking, and I have to question it because it just doesn't sound right, and if it is, why is this the only glass that has that problem?

Hi Jim. I'm just fine, as may be evident from my many posts in other threads on this forum. Why do you ask?

You quoted me when you said it.

Just havn't been on the forum much this summer and havn't seen you.
Have a good evening. Jim

No more comments, but ask yourselves these questions and do the research to find the answers if you really want to begin to understand glass.

1. What makes glass rods shocky?
2. What causes glass to need to be worked at lower temperatures or in the back of the flame?
3. What makes a glass stiffer even though it has the same coe as another glass?
4. What causes a glass not to flow so that it cannot be shaped in the flame?
5. What is "burning" glass really and why does it happen?
6. How can the chemical composition of glass be changed by adding heat?
7. What causes glass to foam?

I've seen it brought up a time or two in various posts. I'm not going searching for them. I brought the BE info up in response to the "no other glass" has that problem statements. It seems that other glass can, indeed, have that problem, under some conditions.

I'd guess the folks that brought it up read it off the site and since they do work cooler, suggested others try it. The working tips are compiled from some users experience, and posted. The folks selling the glass are newbies to the field, thus using terms like "foaming" instead of boiling or devitrifying or shattering when referring to shocky rods.

Much like some folks will suggest heating the vermiculite in the crock pot, though logic doesn't follow on that practice either. I'd bet that phrasing will probably fade off the site eventually, as folks get more experience with the glass.

All glass will change COE the longer it's batched, which is what's happening when it's held in a liquid state for extended periods of time.

No other glass seems to have a problem with becoming self-incompatible from being worked in a torch. I kind of doubt Devardi does, too.

Ah. I'm doing great, hope you are as well!

~luna
Still making ugly beads, but having a blast of a time doing it.

And don't forget the Effetre Okey Dokey Artichokey 'frit on a stick' too. There's a whole new thread dedicated to this.

I'm pretty sure that Country of Origin is NOT the answer to this question. ;)