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As for other posts directed at me, I have made it my personal practice to not answer anyone who does not have a name and link(s) to his/her work. My sincere apologies if this offends anyone. |
Unfortunately Haley, your experience with Devardi was almost a year ago according to the pics you posted. IMHO it has improved greatly since then.
Jack |
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I think it's sad you won't reply to someone without them posting a resume. |
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Just because some people are reporting no cracking issues, DOES NOT discount the fact that others ARE having cracking issues. Hayley gave the glass a fair try, she reported her experience with it honestly, respectfully and professionally, and if the Devardi folks don't like it, too bad! Quote:
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Every report about Devardi glass is a report. Plain and simple! Whether it is for or against Devardi doesn't matter. I'm sick of seeing people being attacked by these Devardi plugs because their experience and report of the glass isn't to their advantage. And you have the AUDACITY to say that "too many people see right through what you are doing", to someone else???? Insulting anyone and everyone who has less than positive things to say about Devardi glass does not PROVE the glass is good. What it proves is that the manufacturer, supplier and Devardi plugs have absolutely no respect or integrity, and THAT speaks loud and clear as the integrity and respectability of the glass itself. People who lack a complete respect towards their potential customers will NEVER care about the integrity of their own products. Because if they did, like so many other glass manufacturers before them, they would have worked with their target consumer rather than insult and alienate them. Quote:
As some of the Devardi defenders have so graciously pointed out, you can find thread after thread after thread of people reporting problems with certain colors, certain batches, etc. With one HUGE, MAJOR difference! The manufacturers, suppliers, and people who had had no problems with it, DID NOT attack those complaining about it. They discussed it, they reported it, they sought to improve it, but AT NO TIME did they EVER insult those who complained about it. THEREIN lies the difference! THEREIN lies the reason these companies have the loyalty of their customers. This is where Devardi and their cohorts went the most wrong. If they had handled things differently, NONE of this would be happening, over and over and over again. I've said it once, and I'll say it again, they are incapable of learning from their own mistakes. And they are their own worst enemy! |
Amen, Deb. That, and some... inconsistencies... in the seller's claims about the glass.
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I'm a nobody too. You claim to be so concerend about us "newbies "making the right choices and decisions. Mostly what I've gotten out of this thread so far is that I should give up and not torch anymore, because I could destroy the "art" of glass beadmaking by using Devardiglass. Making new people feel like crap isn't helping anybody. I don't sell my beads as I am new and just learning, I aso could not contact Haley to ask for help or questions because I'm without a website. Yet She "cares" about me making informed decisions about the glass I choose???? Strange way to care about people.
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It's not my reasoning - it's the collective reasoning of the experience of many lampworkers. I don't give a flying fuck if half the lampworkers in the world want to use Devardi. I have not made a single negative comment about the glass or the people selling it in this thread - my only comments have been related to a completely asinine assertion that overheating the glass in the flame causes cracking. It's real convenient to be able to blame something that no one can prove every time someone posts about their beads cracking. If you really expect people to believe that BS, you should be able to supply the temp at which this happens. Since you seem to believe that the information on the Devardi site is coming from a glass chemist, surely this brilliant person would be able to provide that info, huh? I won't hold my breath waiting. |
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So let me get this straight. You wanted to contact Hayley to ask her for help and to ask her questions. Why would you do that? Could it be because you know she's a well respected member of the glass community? Could it be because you love her work, know she has a lot of experience and knew she could help you? And then you say you couldn't contact her because you were "without a website" whatever that means, and somehow that is her fault? And she must not care about newbies and helping them make informed decisions because you didn't know how to contact her? And since you are using Devardi, which Hayley has tested and reported problems with, somehow that translates, in your head, that Hayley is insulting you and all newbies personally and trying to make you feel like crap? Unbelievable! |
Deb, That comment was made by me, "only" to lightened things up on this thread. I saw where it was headed.
As far as I was concerned, Haley's report on Devardi glass was welcomed. The only thing I ever questioned was why others stated they had used the identical same glass and same silver glass and "Never" had any problems whatsoever. I also critized her for taking the same posts about her results to other forums, without further testing. I don't think that is out of line. You might, or she might, but I do not. As far as the Devardi people go, they have shown every respect possible to customers and potential customers. And, talking about attitudes and immaturity, in the earlier Devardi posts, we tried to post pics. of the beads and discuss the glass. It was impossible! Everyone was verbally assaulted. It was not about the glass, in several cases. Some had other adjendas. Finally, a new thread had to be created, because of all the arguments. Many were newbies, just posting and riding the coat tails of some of the more experienced lampworkers. They were there for the fun of it all, and to cheer their friend on. I can honestly tell you. I know Daniel and Natasha now. I respect them very much. The business is striving. The glass shipment have been increased constantly. Devardi glass is here to stay. Live with it! Jim Clark |
"I'm sick to death of hearing these stupid conspiracy theories about lampworkers and other glass suppliers trying to sabotage Devardi. It's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard."
Not according to the folks on the Torch Bugs website. Go there and look at "Lampworking: COE 104 glass" and read the thread called "!!!DEVARDI!!!. It's only 37 PAGES LONG. That should give you some idea of the kind of people they are. Some of the "most respected" even call it "the D word". Give me a break. There's even another glass supplier posting insulting comments! Ludicrous... I think not. Again, it's just MHO. Jack |
:pout: All this conspiracy talk...and no Mel Gibson (before he went off the edge). It's just not right.
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Good one! =D>
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Second, again repeating myself, I would have a great deal more respect for what you had to say had you not inserted "Live with it!" at the end. Those 3 short words just shot your opinion and your whole point all to hell in my opinion. And it's that attitude, the point that I've been trying to hammer into you and the Devardi people from the beginning, that does more harm than good. So, if you think you're helping them, you're not. Leaving those 3 little words out of it, would have made a whole world of difference in how you and The Devardi people are perceived. |
My point about the Lauscha clear cracking was actually to point out that if I go by certain posts in this thread, its not to be trusted and I could never sell any beads made with Lauscha clear because it may, at some point in the future, crack. How many people out there use this glass regularly and sell it to their customers? I am not being argumentative, I am just pointing out that with that kind of reasoning none of us could ever use any glass that is out there because it some of it may crack in the future. How do we know what will and won't? Do we hold all of our beads for x amount of time before selling?
And I don't think that I was attacking anyone. Let me ask you this. There is a perfectly civil thread going on about Devardi and its pros and cons, and so far the discussions seem to be open and honest, with people saying that yes there are certain issues and other people saying, hey this worked for me, maybe that is the solution for that issue etc. Why was this question not posted over in that thread that is clearly intended to address that type of issue with this glass? |
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"Certain glasses – reds, yellows and oranges in particular – have a tendency to shift their internal chemistry when fired for extended times, more than once, or to temperatures higher than a typical full fuse (1450 – 1500F). They may, under these conditions, become incompatible. With these glasses, the test is therefore performed (on the same chip) three times." http://www.bullseyeglass.com/weblog/...se-of-the-fun/ I'd think we could use the temperature range as a cause for incompatibility, since they do. It's my understanding that flowing glass is in that range. I'm not saying I go for the cool glass working prevents cracking theory, as I haven't experienced it, but if BE says it, doesn't it make it a possibility? And they say over and over again that COE and compatibility aren't as simple as matching the numbers. |
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Jack |
Nothing will be accompolished by reliving the old Devardi thread. I do find it amusing, however, the ones that post and seem to think they are the authorities of "right and wrong" on this thread, are the very ones that have never tried this glass. Is it for the sake of argument, or Internet debate? I, truly, am interested to know. Most of them only give opinions, and rant on with their long posts, but have contributed nothing to the thread.
I, for one, want to hear any results concerning glass, any glass. I want to hear the good, as well as the bad, about Devardi glass. I think that is what most of us are here for. Constructive criticism is welcomed. We will learn from it. I hate to see old topics from this thread revived. I think it would be more constructive to move on. Just my humble opinion. Jim Jim |
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Nobody attacked Natasha. I saw the whole thing as it happened and before posts were deleted BY Daniel and Natasha. Natasha got upset, overwhelmed and over-emotional simply because she couldn't answer and wasn't prepared to answer the questions that were being asked. No one insulted her! The insults started with the Devardi crew. Bad behavior begets like behavior. That's just the way it is. You can't insult people and expect them to love you for it. The Devardi people could still turn this around in their favor if they would just listen. Just like bad behavior begets like behavior, respect gains respect right back. Seriously, I was initially very happy with Drafly's previous post to me which appeared to be respectful until the end. Those 3 words at the end negated anything he had to say as far as I'm concerned. Because he just did what I've been trying to tell you all is the worst possible way to defend Devardi and does more harm than good. Let me give you an example. Let's take Shawnette's posts about Devardi glass. Her opinion about Devardi glass goes a lot further with me simply because she states her opinion about the glass without insulting anyone who has or has had issues with it. When I read opinions like that, I start leaning toward, well... maybe I should give it a try. But then I keep reading and in charges the Devardi crew with the same behavior insults and I remember why I won't try Devardi. If that doesn't make sense to you and the Devardi people then there's nothing left to say because you're just not getting it. |
I disagree. I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that if kilnforming can cause changes in the glass composition that flameworking can as well. Flameworkers can have the glass going through many heating and cooling cycles for 30 minutes, an hour, longer even, and they are getting it hotter than the kiln range given. And the bullseye link doesn't use "and", it uses "or", telling me that they say any of those things can cause a change significant enough to impact stability in a piece.
Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with the cool working=no cracking thing, since I haven't had cracking problems and I don't work cool. I'm just saying that even bullseye lays a logical foundation for the possibility. |
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1. 30 minutes or an hour is not a long time in the kilnforming world, and 2. in lampworking, glass is not held in the fully-molten state for those periods of time. Glass at 1500+ would simply run off the mandrel. Those of us who use BE extensively in flameworking, and have for many years, have never had that problem arise, which indicates that in a good-quality glass it's not an issue for our application. |
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Jack |
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And before anyone says "they were badgered into defending themselves", that's your perception, and even if that were the case, defense doesn't necessitate offensive, snide, and vindictive behavior. I, personally, saw honest questioning; I saw reasonable hesitance to buy into the "it's the greatest thing since sliced bread" that was being voiced by newer members; I saw apologies; I saw more honest questioning; I witnessed "off the charts nastiness" from the owners of the company directed at who I assume they should consider to be their target audience. Many saw what I saw. Your perception may differ. The bottom line is simple. People like to spend their money with people they like. I don't give a hoot whether or not Devardi is here to stay. Who cares? What I do care about is how Devardi's staunch supporters seek to discredit, and demean, anyone who doesn't agree with them. As far as the glass goes... I think some of the colors are pretty. I think Jack has made some pretty beads. |
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