Lampwork Etc.

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-   -   Devardi cracks (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145643)

J&M 2009-11-19 2:41pm

I'll let you and everyone here know if they do crack or crumble in the future. It's been 9 or so months since they were made... I give you my word to post if they do ever crack.

Jack

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-19 2:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2757426)
1. 30 minutes or an hour is not a long time in the kilnforming world, and

2. in lampworking, glass is not held in the fully-molten state for those periods of time. Glass at 1500+ would simply run off the mandrel.

Those of us who use BE extensively in flameworking, and have for many years, have never had that problem arise, which indicates that in a good-quality glass it's not an issue for our application.

1) agreed

2) What I'm seeing for working temp for moretti showed 1700. You are completely correct about the length of time held fully molten, but when you apply glass to the mandrel, add it, and melt it in, it's fully molten-at least parts of it are.

I'm not comparing devardi's quality to BE. That is apples and oranges. I'm using the information they have posted for a situation, and to me, it applies to torchworking.

I feel like I can compare devardi's quality to that of moretti/effetre/vetrofond. Many of the problems experienced with italian glass are very similar to those being reported by devardi users. shocky, check. hates to be encased, check. Alabastros and opalinos anyone? Personally, I gave up on those branches years ago, lol. Too much hassle. My problems with devardi have not been enough for me to feel that way.

I don't see a lot of posts in other "glass cracking" threads saying to chuck the whole line of glass, it's worthless. I don't see as many posters in those threads saying that kind of thing who have never used the glass in question. That's what gets people's dander up-and what started the arguing in this thread.

Frogsongstudio 2009-11-19 2:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2757453)
Everyone attacked Natasha and you know it.

No. I know what I saw.

Quote:

And what's this "you Devardi people" stuff? Out of all the glass that I use, Devardi is the least used of all. What kind of person are you? Are you a Moretti person? Are you a Lauscha person? Please, let everyone know so we all know what to call YOU.

Jack
You Devardi people, meaning the manufacturers, suppliers and plugs that create new usernames just to come in and insult anyone who doesn't say only positive things about Devardi.

But since you asked, you can all me one of the, Moretti, Lauscha, CIM, TAG, Precision, StrikingColor, Vetrofond, Double Helix, ASK, Reichenbach, and future BE people. I use them all.

You know, all those manufacturers who answered all the questions and didn't insult their customers for daring to ask.

chrissij 2009-11-19 2:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2757477)
Alabastros and opalinos anyone?

I love them...

SilverRiverJewelry 2009-11-19 2:49pm

okay, clearly I missed some things in the past which may explain the strong feelings both ways. I did not see the original thread so I have no idea what was said and not said or by whom. I am not going to say anymore other than to say that for me personally, I really like it and will continue to work with it unless that changes.

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-19 2:49pm

I've never seen moretti, lauscha, reichenbach, ask, or vetrofond folks post answering all the questions.

I've seen some suppliers answer many of them, like Frantz, for example. I've seen many small business folks shoot themselves in the foot when posting in these forums, and my buying habits reflect those opinions.

I don't see "lasucha cracks" threads going after the vendors, even the universally questionable ones.

J&M 2009-11-19 2:50pm

I know exactly what to call you. The only person really insulting people is you I'm sorry to say.

Jack

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-19 2:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissij (Post 2757497)
I love them...

I ought to send you the bits I have left, lol. All burned and boiley, too ;)

The Semi-opaque white and pink remind me a lot of the opalinos, but they are much more user friendly, I think. Haven't played as much with the pink, though, as I have the white.

Frogsongstudio 2009-11-19 2:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverRiverJewelry (Post 2757505)
okay, clearly I missed some things in the past which may explain the strong feelings both ways. I did not see the original thread so I have no idea what was said and not said or by whom. I am not going to say anymore other than to say that for me personally, I really like it and will continue to work with it unless that changes.

And no one is going to condemn or insult or dislike you for liking Devardi Sonja. :)

Frogsongstudio 2009-11-19 2:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2757511)
I know exactly what to call you. The only person really insulting people is you I'm sorry to say.

Jack

And that's exactly why you'll never get it.

J&M 2009-11-19 2:55pm

I got it a long time ago. By you and all of your cohorts my dear. Thank you very much.

Jack

Frogsongstudio 2009-11-19 2:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2757508)
I've never seen moretti, lauscha, reichenbach, ask, or vetrofond folks post answering all the questions.

I've seen some suppliers answer many of them, like Frantz, for example. I've seen many small business folks shoot themselves in the foot when posting in these forums, and my buying habits reflect those opinions.

I don't see "lasucha cracks" threads going after the vendors, even the universally questionable ones.

Oh there have been plenty of vendors called to the table for their behavior. Perhaps you aren't looking hard enough or don't want to see it. That way you can continue to accuse people of some conspiracy to sabotage Devardi and ignore the rest.

Frogsongstudio 2009-11-19 2:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2757521)
I got it a long time ago. By you and all of your cohorts my dear. Thank you very much.

Jack

LOL. I can only shake my head.

chrissij 2009-11-19 2:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2757513)
I ought to send you the bits I have left, lol. All burned and boiley, too ;)

Just work it cooler...like you do your Devardi. :poke:

J&M 2009-11-19 2:58pm

Good. I'm glad we can come to a mutual understanding.

Jack

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-19 3:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio (Post 2757523)
Oh there have been plenty of vendors called to the table for their behavior. Perhaps you aren't looking hard enough or don't want to see it. That way you can continue to accuse people of some conspiracy to sabotage Devardi and ignore the rest.

My post said I haven't seen people condemning an entire line of glass due to the behavior of the vendor, saying the product was worthless and to throw it away.

Natasha and Daniel did make some poor decisions when they first posted, I think. I weighed that against the "new vendor" and added in the sheer vehemence of the arguments against them. I gave them some leeway based on that factor. Anyone can show their ass once in a while, and I, personally, felt that there was some level of justifiable response from them.

I waited to see how Natasha and Daniel would behave over time, because I won't support vendors behaving poorly for much time. When the next shipment came in, and they still hadn't been on the boards, I bought some of the glass.

And please show me where I have accused anyone of conspiring to sabotage Devardi.

Kalera 2009-11-19 4:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2757477)
1) agreed

2) What I'm seeing for working temp for moretti showed 1700. You are completely correct about the length of time held fully molten, but when you apply glass to the mandrel, add it, and melt it in, it's fully molten-at least parts of it are.

I'm not comparing devardi's quality to BE. That is apples and oranges. I'm using the information they have posted for a situation, and to me, it applies to torchworking.

I feel like I can compare devardi's quality to that of moretti/effetre/vetrofond. Many of the problems experienced with italian glass are very similar to those being reported by devardi users. shocky, check. hates to be encased, check. Alabastros and opalinos anyone? Personally, I gave up on those branches years ago, lol. Too much hassle. My problems with devardi have not been enough for me to feel that way.

I don't see a lot of posts in other "glass cracking" threads saying to chuck the whole line of glass, it's worthless. I don't see as many posters in those threads saying that kind of thing who have never used the glass in question. That's what gets people's dander up-and what started the arguing in this thread.

Neither Effetre nor Vetrofond have problems cracking if they are worked hot, though. That seems to be strictly a Devardi attribute, and frankly, one that baffles me. It doesn't seem to me to make sense than any properly batched glass should become incompatible with itself from being worked hot in the flame.

Drafly 2009-11-19 4:37pm

I do not have a problem working Devardi Glass hot. I use a Cricket and 10 LPM Generator.
A few colors have to be introduced slowly into the flame, but I now use a rod warmer and have no problems.

Hi Kalera. How are you? Jim

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-19 4:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2757679)
Neither Effetre nor Vetrofond have problems cracking if they are worked hot, though. That seems to be strictly a Devardi attribute, and frankly, one that baffles me. It doesn't seem to me to make sense than any properly batched glass should become incompatible with itself from being worked hot in the flame.

I do see what you are saying, but since I haven't had cracking to speak of with this glass, I can't say this is an issue. I do work hot. I may burn my colors (pink-pretty much a guarantee), but I haven't seen this cracking due to working hot thing. I'm just saying even BE posts a logical reason for heating glass causing changes in its compatibility.

As it's not a problem I've experienced, I asked annealing questions.

Frogsongstudio 2009-11-19 4:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2757538)

And please show me where I have accused anyone of conspiring to sabotage Devardi.

Not you personally, just some people in particular.

Kalera 2009-11-19 5:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2757692)
I do see what you are saying, but since I haven't had cracking to speak of with this glass, I can't say this is an issue. I do work hot. I may burn my colors (pink-pretty much a guarantee), but I haven't seen this cracking due to working hot thing. I'm just saying even BE posts a logical reason for heating glass causing changes in its compatibility.

As it's not a problem I've experienced, I asked annealing questions.

I personally tend to suspect that cracking issues are more likely annealing temperature or compatibility issues, but various people keep bringing it up as a reason for cracking, and I have to question it because it just doesn't sound right, and if it is, why is this the only glass that has that problem?

Kalera 2009-11-19 5:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drafly (Post 2757691)
I do not have a problem working Devardi Glass hot. I use a Cricket and 10 LPM Generator.
A few colors have to be introduced slowly into the flame, but I now use a rod warmer and have no problems.

Hi Kalera. How are you? Jim

Hi Jim. I'm just fine, as may be evident from my many posts in other threads on this forum. Why do you ask?

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-19 5:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio (Post 2757709)
Not you personally, just some people in particular.

You quoted me when you said it.

Drafly 2009-11-19 5:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2757757)
Hi Jim. I'm just fine, as may be evident from my many posts in other threads on this forum. Why do you ask?

Just havn't been on the forum much this summer and havn't seen you.
Have a good evening. Jim

pam 2009-11-19 5:11pm

No more comments, but ask yourselves these questions and do the research to find the answers if you really want to begin to understand glass.

1. What makes glass rods shocky?
2. What causes glass to need to be worked at lower temperatures or in the back of the flame?
3. What makes a glass stiffer even though it has the same coe as another glass?
4. What causes a glass not to flow so that it cannot be shaped in the flame?
5. What is "burning" glass really and why does it happen?
6. How can the chemical composition of glass be changed by adding heat?
7. What causes glass to foam?

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-19 5:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2757748)
I personally tend to suspect that cracking issues are more likely annealing temperature or compatibility issues, but various people keep bringing it up as a reason for cracking, and I have to question it because it just doesn't sound right, and if it is, why is this the only glass that has that problem?

I've seen it brought up a time or two in various posts. I'm not going searching for them. I brought the BE info up in response to the "no other glass" has that problem statements. It seems that other glass can, indeed, have that problem, under some conditions.

I'd guess the folks that brought it up read it off the site and since they do work cooler, suggested others try it. The working tips are compiled from some users experience, and posted. The folks selling the glass are newbies to the field, thus using terms like "foaming" instead of boiling or devitrifying or shattering when referring to shocky rods.

Much like some folks will suggest heating the vermiculite in the crock pot, though logic doesn't follow on that practice either. I'd bet that phrasing will probably fade off the site eventually, as folks get more experience with the glass.

Kalera 2009-11-19 5:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2757782)
I've seen it brought up a time or two in various posts. I'm not going searching for them. I brought the BE info up in response to the "no other glass" has that problem statements. It seems that other glass can, indeed, have that problem, under some conditions.

I'd guess the folks that brought it up read it off the site and since they do work cooler, suggested others try it. The working tips are compiled from some users experience, and posted. The folks selling the glass are newbies to the field, thus using terms like "foaming" instead of boiling or devitrifying or shattering when referring to shocky rods.

Much like some folks will suggest heating the vermiculite in the crock pot, though logic doesn't follow on that practice either. I'd bet that phrasing will probably fade off the site eventually, as folks get more experience with the glass.


All glass will change COE the longer it's batched, which is what's happening when it's held in a liquid state for extended periods of time.

No other glass seems to have a problem with becoming self-incompatible from being worked in a torch. I kind of doubt Devardi does, too.

Kalera 2009-11-19 5:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drafly (Post 2757772)
Just havn't been on the forum much this summer and havn't seen you.
Have a good evening. Jim

Ah. I'm doing great, hope you are as well!

lunamoonshadow 2009-11-19 10:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pam (Post 2757780)
No more comments, but ask yourselves these questions and do the research to find the answers if you really want to begin to understand glass.

1. What makes glass rods shocky? Air in the rods--I've got some *lovely* opal yellow that's "frit on a stick", & all of my sage, copper green, and most of my EDP is like this too. Actually, 95% of my "hand-pulled" colors from moretti/effetre have always been this way. Oh, & lets not forget about "honey crunch"--it certainly stands up to the "crunch" in it's name :lol:
2. What causes glass to need to be worked at lower temperatures or in the back of the flame? same thing? :rolleyes: Or, could also be that you're stuffing ice-cold glass into a really hot flame--thermal shock can do a job on stuff...or, there's always the "touchy" colors, like the opalinos...but they're just so pretty, they're worth the extra effort to keep pretty...or rubino, work that in too close & you'll burn the "pink" right out of it! Of course, on a hothead, you need to work "back of the flame" or you'll get sooty in your transparents...so there is *that* to consider for "back of the flame" reasons too....
3. What makes a glass stiffer even though it has the same coe as another glass? I believe Tink & John said "viscosity", & that's from the chemical makeup of the glass--transparents are generally stiffer than opaques--that's why ivory falls off the mandrel when you're not looking, but clear takes forever to melt in on a hothead (and you get it all sooty if you've got it too close to the torch head....so back away!)
4. What causes a glass not to flow so that it cannot be shaped in the flame? Lack of heat, or lack of viscosity...or, maybe you're trying to melt boro with a hothead....
5. What is "burning" glass really and why does it happen? Too much propane in your flame :lol: or you've got your glass too close to your hothead tip...back away from the torch....slower is better!
6. How can the chemical composition of glass be changed by adding heat? I'd have to ask a chemist, but I'm sure they'd have an answer.
7. What causes glass to foam? Beats me--I've never met "foaming" glass & I've melted a couple rods of BE, a batchload of Devardi, lots of Moretti/Effettre/Vetrofond, a small assortment of Gail's Veiled Gaffer Canes, a bunch of Val's frits, & a whole lot of Lauscha and one whole quarter ounce of boro dichro I tried to add to some vetro black. Turns out *that* doesn't work :lol:. I *have* managed to boil some glass (mostly opalino....) but that was purely user error....

~luna
Still making ugly beads, but having a blast of a time doing it.

GlassGalore 2009-11-19 10:30pm

Quote:

1. What makes glass rods shocky? Air in the rods--I've got some *lovely* opal yellow that's "frit on a stick", & all of my sage, copper green, and most of my EDP is like this too. Actually, 95% of my "hand-pulled" colors from moretti/effetre have always been this way. Oh, & lets not forget about "honey crunch"--it certainly stands up to the "crunch" in it's name
And don't forget the Effetre Okey Dokey Artichokey 'frit on a stick' too. There's a whole new thread dedicated to this.

I'm pretty sure that Country of Origin is NOT the answer to this question. ;)


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