Lampwork Etc.

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-   -   Devardi cracks (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145643)

Kalera 2009-11-20 10:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2758924)
Someone has to be that person ;)

Check out the semi opaques from devardi sometime. Many of them are just gorgeous-and those are what makes it worth the effort to me.

There are tons of other semi-opaque glasses on the market that don't require fussing with, so I don't really have an incentive to.

Lisi 2009-11-20 11:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758930)
Oh Lisi! OMG you made me laugh so hard! I feel bad for laughing, but the ice-maker part... :lol: :lol: :lol: I hope you aren't stuck with all those half-working things for too long!

It's been like that for 3 weeks, and when my neighbors had a BBQ on Veteran's Day, I had told them two days before to not waste their money on ice for their beer coolers, I had plenty already bagged up and more coming! LOL!!!

We have been putting up with it because my husband had been home from work more this past couple of weeks and doing yardwork. He gets hot and sweaty, and puts all that ice-water to use! But we are probably going to disconnect it tonight. It is going to be a pain tapping off the water that leads to the thing. hehe

chrissij 2009-11-20 11:05am

I think EVERYONE should drive a Volvo...

chrissij 2009-11-20 11:09am

and I'll go on record and tell everyone why I won't buy it.

1) I've found the "you get what you pay for" cliche to be rooted in truth.
2) I think the owners are complete and total assholes. My opinion; entitled to it.

Kalera 2009-11-20 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissij (Post 2758962)
I think EVERYONE should drive a Volvo...

:lol:

Most of Portland seems to think the same thing!

chrissij 2009-11-20 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758975)
:lol:

Most of Portland seems to think the same thing!

I've lost count of the number of my customers who have moved there...and this just reminded me I owe one of them an email about her ABS controller. Eeeek!

Hayley 2009-11-20 11:25am

Kalera and Chris - one of our cars is a Volvo 950! The other is a Mini Cooper - great city car for San Francisco.

And we are both a Mac household and a Mac office! ;-)

I second the "you get what you pay for" sentiment!

Firemagic 2009-11-20 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2758941)
They most certainly did, when they stated that the other glass on the market was cutting corners by not making as saturated a glass. By saying other products are inferior, the inference is that their product is superior.

Saturation of color has nothing to do with glass quality. This is the same twisting of words you tried last year that caused the Devardi people to defend themselves.

You need to be careful how thick you use some of the Devardi transparent colors over opaque bases because they can be so saturated, they can cover the base color. The glass does tend to be more saturated, I have found. That has nothing to do with the quality of glass that tends to not be that saturated. It also does not say that other glass companies are cutting corners. It just says that other companies may not make their glass as saturated.

andreajane 2009-11-20 11:52am

But why would one glassmaker make negative remarks about another glassmaker? If the glass is good AND cheap, trust me when I say this community will find it and use it without the makers needing to say anything else about what anyone else is doing.


Andrea

Kalera 2009-11-20 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firemagic (Post 2759049)
Saturation of color has nothing to do with glass quality. This is the same twisting of words you tried last year that caused the Devardi people to defend themselves.

You need to be careful how thick you use some of the Devardi transparent colors over opaque bases because they can be so saturated, they can cover the base color. The glass does tend to be more saturated, I have found. That has nothing to do with the quality of glass that tends to not be that saturated. It also does not say that other glass companies are cutting corners. It just says that other companies may not make their glass as saturated.

I didn't twist any words, Dan, and you know it. The wording in your auctions now is different from the original wording. Lots of other people saw and remember: lying about it now doesn't make you look any more honest.

Kalera 2009-11-20 12:14pm

From the original auction:

Quote:

Devardi glass is a handmade, hand pulled glass that uses very ancient glass recipes. It is not like the stripped down comercial varieties that flood the market.
So I misremembered... you didn't say "cut corners", you said "stripped down". It's an inaccurate unfavorable comparison that infers that Devardi is superior. That is one of the things that led people to question you.

andreajane 2009-11-20 12:17pm

Is Firemagic one of the "Devardi people"?


Andrea

Leslie Dana 2009-11-20 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreajane (Post 2759059)
But why would one glassmaker make negative remarks about another glassmaker? If the glass is good AND cheap, trust me when I say this community will find it and use it without the makers needing to say anything else about what anyone else is doing.


Andrea

I agree !

Kalera 2009-11-20 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreajane (Post 2759096)
Is Firemagic one of the "Devardi people"?


Andrea

Yep, it's Dan. Up to his old tricks.

andreajane 2009-11-20 12:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2759115)
Yep, it's Dan. Up to his old tricks.

OK...then him talking about himself in the third person while discussing problems with his product has helped me make up my mind.

Thanks.


Andrea

chrissij 2009-11-20 12:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayley (Post 2759009)
Kalera and Chris - one of our cars is a Volvo 950!

940? or 850? ;)

lunamoonshadow 2009-11-20 12:48pm

Hey, I got "graded" on my "test" answers :)
(and I got them "half right" :lol:)
All *I* know is, I bought some glass (a long time ago), the rods they *said* would be bubble-glass *were* bubble-glass & DIDN'T cost $40+ a pound & *weren't* hollow rods (so they didn't need to be kept in a special place 'cause they weren't all fragile & breakable & terrifying to use), & the "bubble-glass" had loads of bubbles & was gorgeous colors (so, no "use bubble glass with a transparent to get a color" routine)
The other stuff *seems* to be compatable with 104--the beads I made, stuffed into a crockpot & had batch annealled later all have *not* broken. I made them the same way I make my beads using Lauscha (another glass that *supposedly* you "can't batch anneal" :roll:) & two of them have some of Brad's Striking Glass Color on Devardi Metallic Black & multiple months later, they're still intact. I didn't swirl it in, so that *could* be why. I don't know. All I know is one of them has been banging around my purse for months (not great treatment for a bead :lol:) & it's fine.
I like the metallic black a LOT & for $6 a pound, it's shiny, easy to use, and a heck of a lot closer to my budget than any *other* brand of "shiny"--and when I'm selling beads for uber-cheap to people who are looking for bargains, not "name-brands", I'm fine with that! (particularly when it's passed being tested in my purse for nearly a year :lol:)
And seriously, PINK for $6 a pound? Yeah, I'm buying it. And testing it *exactly* the same way. Valentines day is coming in a few months--I can't *get* $40 a bead--I'm lucky if I can get $10-$12 for a bead *on a chain*!--and if this glass is stable enough to use even as a "single color" glass for basic production of simple shapes--I'm good with it!

Hayley 2009-11-20 1:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissij (Post 2759133)
940? or 850? ;)

Fingers had a mind of their own and mistyped! 850 Turbo . . . it's a work horse!

Hayley 2009-11-20 1:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreajane (Post 2759123)
OK...then him talking about himself in the third person while discussing problems with his product has helped me make up my mind.

Thanks.


Andrea

Andrea - that's one of the reasons why I have made it a personal practice to not reply to posts from those who refuse to disclose his/her identity . . .

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 1:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2759115)
Yep, it's Dan. Up to his old tricks.

It is?

Kalera 2009-11-20 1:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayley (Post 2759179)
Andrea - that's one of the reasons why I have made it a personal practice to not reply to posts from those who refuse to disclose his/her identity . . .

That's making more and more sense. No avatar, no signature, no location, and not so much as a first name = probably a dupe account.

andreajane 2009-11-20 1:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoonshadow (Post 2759148)
Hey, I got "graded" on my "test" answers :)
(and I got them "half right" :lol:)
All *I* know is, I bought some glass (a long time ago), the rods they *said* would be bubble-glass *were* bubble-glass & DIDN'T cost $40+ a pound & *weren't* hollow rods (so they didn't need to be kept in a special place 'cause they weren't all fragile & breakable & terrifying to use), & the "bubble-glass" had loads of bubbles & was gorgeous colors (so, no "use bubble glass with a transparent to get a color" routine)
The other stuff *seems* to be compatable with 104--the beads I made, stuffed into a crockpot & had batch annealled later all have *not* broken. I made them the same way I make my beads using Lauscha (another glass that *supposedly* you "can't batch anneal" :roll:) & two of them have some of Brad's Striking Glass Color on Devardi Metallic Black & multiple months later, they're still intact. I didn't swirl it in, so that *could* be why. I don't know. All I know is one of them has been banging around my purse for months (not great treatment for a bead :lol:) & it's fine.
I like the metallic black a LOT & for $6 a pound, it's shiny, easy to use, and a heck of a lot closer to my budget than any *other* brand of "shiny"--and when I'm selling beads for uber-cheap to people who are looking for bargains, not "name-brands", I'm fine with that! (particularly when it's passed being tested in my purse for nearly a year :lol:)
And seriously, PINK for $6 a pound? Yeah, I'm buying it. And testing it *exactly* the same way. Valentines day is coming in a few months--I can't *get* $40 a bead--I'm lucky if I can get $10-$12 for a bead *on a chain*!--and if this glass is stable enough to use even as a "single color" glass for basic production of simple shapes--I'm good with it!

If I pay less than $25/lb for the glass I use, I don't even take it into consideration when pricing my beads. I am learning a lot from this thread!


Andrea

andreajane 2009-11-20 1:18pm

Say I pay $40/lb including shipping, and just to make the math easy, I get 40 focal beads out of that pound. That's a dollar a bead.

If I pay $10/lb for glass and get 40 focal beads out of it, that's 25 cents a bead. That's only a 75 cent different per bead.

Just thinking out loud.


Andrea

J&M 2009-11-20 1:30pm

ahh... that adds up to a $30.00 savings.

Jack

andreajane 2009-11-20 1:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2759219)
ahh... that adds up to a $30.00 savings.

Jack

Well, that's true before you even make the first bead.


Andrea

shawnette 2009-11-20 1:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreajane (Post 2759199)
Say I pay $40/lb including shipping, and just to make the math easy, I get 40 focal beads out of that pound. That's a dollar a bead.

If I pay $10/lb for glass and get 40 focal beads out of it, that's 25 cents a bead. That's only a 75 cent different per bead.

Just thinking out loud.


Andrea

Yes, BUT you can get 4lbs instead of 1lb, so that 160 focals for the same $$.


But I don't sell... I bought the glass because some of the colors are TDF and not difficult to work with at all. Some are (in my opinion) a PITA that I won't buy again, but I was forewarned and I only bought .25lb anyway. ($2).

andreajane 2009-11-20 1:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnette (Post 2759224)
Yes, BUT you can get 4lbs instead of 1lb, so that 160 focals for the same $$.

There are lots of ways to look at it.
eta: That's a good way if you make 160 focals out of the same glass :D


Andrea

J&M 2009-11-20 1:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreajane (Post 2759223)
Well, that's true before you even make the first bead.


Andrea

Exactly my point. Thank you.
Jack

J&M 2009-11-20 1:36pm

wow.

andreajane 2009-11-20 1:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2759228)
Exactly my point. Thank you.
Jack

You're welcome!


Andrea

andreajane 2009-11-20 1:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2759230)
wow.

What does this mean?


Andrea

shawnette 2009-11-20 1:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreajane (Post 2759227)
There are lots of ways to look at it.
eta: That's a good way if you make 160 focals out of the same glass :D


Andrea

Production workers and people on the show circuit often do. When I was using Effetre, it wasn't uncommon for me to buy 5lbs of a particular color, if I liked it. I bought 8lbs of BG Pink & 10lbs of Slate.

(Or you could by 1lb each of 4 colors...)

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 1:43pm

I usually buy my clear in 5 lb lots.

Kalera 2009-11-20 2:07pm

My torch cost $700. My kiln cost $1200. Then there are the oxygen concentrators and the cost of fuel and electricity to keep these things operating.

Honestly, when I do my taxes at the end of the year, glass is one of my smallest expenses, and that's despite buying silver glass, boro, and Bullseye, among other things. I think I spent $600 on glass last year... that would be a lot if I wasn't selling, but I support my family on proceeds from my beads. If I wasn't selling, I wouldn't have needed so much glass. I buy the glass I need; sometimes I make a lot of boro beads, so I buy more boro. Sometimes I make a lot of Effetre and Vetrofond beads and Mike Frantz gets my business. I don't think, "Oh, Effetre is cheaper than BE so I'll buy more Effetre and just make Effetre beads for a while". It just doesn't factor in.

My main concern is whether the glass is good quality. I also take other factors into consideration, but that's at the top of my list. Like I said before, if it's lower-quality it's perfectly fine for practice, but in terms of overhead, if you're breaking it down financially for business purposes, the glass is such a tiny percentage of your costs that whether you pay $5/lb or $40, it's barely worth taking into consideration for pricing purposes, IMO.

Carolyn M 2009-11-20 2:27pm

I haven't used this glass, so I have no opinions on it.

I would like to relate my experiences with other 'problem' glass though. I had a batch of Diamond Clear that cracked. Abe offered to replace it, but I declined as I had only bought 1/2 lb. I also bought some TAG clear that looked liked seeded glass when worked on my Cricket. Fine on a Minor though??? Anyway, Jenny offered to replace it or give me glass in exchange. My point is that both manufacturers were extremely ready to admit there may have been problems with the glass, and offered to make it good. Devardi responds to criticism by insulting and undermining the skills of the beadmaker posting the problem.

For that reason I will probably not buy any Devardi, even though I would love to try some of their colours. I only like to do business with respectful vendors who's attitude (in public) is one of 'the customer is always right'

andreajane 2009-11-20 2:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnette (Post 2759241)
Production workers and people on the show circuit often do. When I was using Effetre, it wasn't uncommon for me to buy 5lbs of a particular color, if I liked it. I bought 8lbs of BG Pink & 10lbs of Slate.

(Or you could by 1lb each of 4 colors...)

That makes sense. Luna's post just started me on a train of thought, but everyone has to price things the way that works for them.


Andrea

tgslampwork 2009-11-20 3:24pm

I haven't said a thing (that I remember) regarding Devardi up until now -- and I've lurked on the threads, starting with the one months ago when the glass was first talked about here. I saw the nastiness from the (only) vendors of this glass first hand, before the posts were deleted. For that reason I'm not likely to ever purchase this glass either.

I speak with my wallet whenever I can - and as long as there is other glass with other vendors to choose from I'll go that route. The only time I deal with vendors/companies I *dislike* is when there's a NEED and no other place for me to get that need filled. Example - my local gas and cable companies. Otherwise, on principle, I'll hapilly spend more to support those who deserve it AND have what I need.

Kalera 2009-11-20 3:27pm

When I was figuring out how to price my boro beads, I did some calculating, breaking down the cost of glass in each bead. I was starting with the assumption that I would need to charge more for boro beads because boro color is about $40-50/lb. Clear is cheap, of course.

With my bracelet-sized beads, I get about 96 beads from each pound. Even if I make a set that's solid color, which I rarely do, that makes my materials cost just under .47 per bead assuming a cost of $45/lb. If I'm using Vetrofond, it would be 12.5 cents per bead. I could charge .34 cents more per bead for the boro, but really, whether a customer will pay that depends on how pretty the bead is, which depends pretty much entirely on how pretty the glass is, how well I work it, and how much effort (time) I put into the bead. So instead of basing my pricing on the cost of the glass, I focus on how long it takes me to make each bead... since my labor is the most expensive thing I'm putting into it. I've priced less-attractive beads made out of very expensive glass much lower than beautiful beads made out of cheaper glass.

The beauty and time factors are why a quality glass that's easy to work with are important to me. They're not necessarily important to everyone, but for me it's a prime consideration. Glass that's easy to work reduces the time I spend making each bead, which means that in a day I can be more productive and make more pretty beads, which in turn means I can price them more reasonably, sell more, and put more (figurative) food on the table at the end of the month.

That is my reasoning for spending more on better glass. It's not applicable to everyone's situation, it's just my personal answer to the "it's so inexpensive it will save you money, so why not?" question. In my specific situation, the way I use glass, it actually wouldn't save me money... same reason why expensive silver glasses, with their high beauty-for-the-dollar payoff, are worth it for me.

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 3:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carolyn M (Post 2759303)
I haven't used this glass, so I have no opinions on it.

I would like to relate my experiences with other 'problem' glass though. I had a batch of Diamond Clear that cracked. Abe offered to replace it, but I declined as I had only bought 1/2 lb. I also bought some TAG clear that looked liked seeded glass when worked on my Cricket. Fine on a Minor though??? Anyway, Jenny offered to replace it or give me glass in exchange. My point is that both manufacturers were extremely ready to admit there may have been problems with the glass, and offered to make it good. Devardi responds to criticism by insulting and undermining the skills of the beadmaker posting the problem.

For that reason I will probably not buy any Devardi, even though I would love to try some of their colours. I only like to do business with respectful vendors who's attitude (in public) is one of 'the customer is always right'

Personally, I tend to allow vendors a mistake or two in their public dealings. Shortly after TAM came about, even Mike Frantz showed his hind end in public on there, about dealings with a customer. Quite a few people have shown a not so pretty side of themselves in one way or another. I like to see if it's a continuing manner of behavior or a short term action. If it doesn't happen again, I consider it being human and move on unless it really offended me personally.

I read the original threads. It wouldn't matter if Natasha and Daniel had pulled their posts or not, they would have been deleted when all the threads merged and came into the Tips and techniques thread below. There was a lot of nastiness going around in those posts-not just from Natasha and Daniel. They didn't handle it well. Personally, I could see responding the way they did. They did remove themselves from acting that way again, and I haven't seen them post in such a way again.

When I've emailed with them, they respond promptly and answer every question nicely. They haven't behaved poorly in public again. I like their glass. I think the colors are unlike what I see in some of the COE 104 lines available, and at the price, I think they are a good deal. I don't think they are any harder to work with than some of the more temperamental 104 glass already out there.

Kalera 2009-11-20 3:44pm

I don't recall Mike Frantz being on TAM... do you mean Mike Aurelius? He's not exactly a good example for the point you're trying to make... what with the multiple accounts, sock-puppetry, and belittling customers with problems.

I'm glad you've had good experiences with Daniel and Natasha. I went into that thread thinking I'd be interested in trying Devardi, and came out of it wanting nothing to do with it, largely based on their behavior. The reports of low quality cinched it for me. Your decision is fine, and so is mine.

J&M 2009-11-20 3:50pm

Yes, Daniel and Natasha have been nothing but nice, ready to assist in any way, and very speedy in their delivery whether it be a large or small order. And, IMHO, the Devardi glass has improved greatly since the first time it was introduced.

Jack

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 3:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2759393)
I don't recall Mike Frantz being on TAM... do you mean Mike Aurelius? He's not exactly a good example for the point you're trying to make... what with the multiple accounts, sock-puppetry, and belittling customers with problems.

I'm glad you've had good experiences with Daniel and Natasha. I went into that thread thinking I'd be interested in trying Devardi, and came out of it wanting nothing to do with it, largely based on their behavior. The reports of low quality cinched it for me. Your decision is fine, and so is mine.

LOL...Aurelius made me certain I'd buy from another manufacturer. I do mean Frantz. It was in regards to someone ordering glass to be shipped to Mexico, or some place in Central America and it wasn't pretty.

Kalera 2009-11-20 3:58pm

Oh, I do remember that. For some reason I thought it happened here... that was with Laura Brito, and he did replace the glass.

likes to make glass stuff 2009-11-20 4:00pm

That's who it was, couldn't remember.

Even he got unpleasant on there, if you recall.

Frogsongstudio 2009-11-20 4:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by J&M (Post 2758837)
It seems that you're the one who has an agenda here Pam. Why on earth would I? I just kindly asked for you to help out some fellow lampworkers that have questions on other current threads. You've had plenty of opportunity to post here on this particular thread.

Jack

You have "kindly" done no such thing. Your post was pure sarcasm meant to look innocent when in fact it was not.

andreajane 2009-11-20 4:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera (Post 2759373)
When I was figuring out how to price my boro beads, I did some calculating, breaking down the cost of glass in each bead. I was starting with the assumption that I would need to charge more for boro beads because boro color is about $40-50/lb. Clear is cheap, of course.

With my bracelet-sized beads, I get about 96 beads from each pound. Even if I make a set that's solid color, which I rarely do, that makes my materials cost just under .47 per bead assuming a cost of $45/lb. If I'm using Vetrofond, it would be 12.5 cents per bead. I could charge .34 cents more per bead for the boro, but really, whether a customer will pay that depends on how pretty the bead is, which depends pretty much entirely on how pretty the glass is, how well I work it, and how much effort (time) I put into the bead. So instead of basing my pricing on the cost of the glass, I focus on how long it takes me to make each bead... since my labor is the most expensive thing I'm putting into it. I've priced less-attractive beads made out of very expensive glass much lower than beautiful beads made out of cheaper glass.

The beauty and time factors are why a quality glass that's easy to work with are important to me. They're not necessarily important to everyone, but for me it's a prime consideration. Glass that's easy to work reduces the time I spend making each bead, which means that in a day I can be more productive and make more pretty beads, which in turn means I can price them more reasonably, sell more, and put more (figurative) food on the table at the end of the month.

That is my reasoning for spending more on better glass. It's not applicable to everyone's situation, it's just my personal answer to the "it's so inexpensive it will save you money, so why not?" question. In my specific situation, the way I use glass, it actually wouldn't save me money... same reason why expensive silver glasses, with their high beauty-for-the-dollar payoff, are worth it for me.

All of the beadmakers I've talked to about this before this thread (I'd guess about half a dozen) follow a similar process when it comes to pricing, as do I.


Andrea

J&M 2009-11-20 4:35pm

Now your accusing me of something??? Please get over yourself. All you're doing now is trying to start an argument. There's no need for it. What you're saying is a falsehood and I won't be here to comment further. You seem to be a very mean-spirited person, making insinuations and accusations for no reason.

Regards,
Jack

pam 2009-11-20 4:50pm

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Jack, as I said before, people are allowed to post where and when they see fit, that includes me.

With regard to pricing, a long time ago I determined that each bead I make costs me less than $5 plus my hourly wage. I don't care if I use gold leaf or the BE lustres or whatever, my bead is never going to cost me more than $5. Of course if I wanted to figure in all my torches, kilns, tools, generator, education, practice, etc., etc., I think I would have to value each bead at $500 each. lol I determine the price of each bead according to how much I like it.

J&M 2009-11-20 5:37pm

](*,)

Kalera 2009-11-20 5:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff (Post 2759414)
That's who it was, couldn't remember.

Even he got unpleasant on there, if you recall.


I do remember him getting frustrated, but I don't remember him getting really unpleasant... though I don't typically remember conversations verbatim, more just the impressions I get from them at the time. All I really remember is that he seemed frustrated, she seemed frustrated, and in the end they worked it out with no hard feelings.


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