I don't think that Pam's questions were specific to Devardi. They were meant to guide people towards an understanding of problems that can occur in ALL glass. And there are issues with pretty much all manufacturers of glass....no one disputes that.

At no time did she insinuate that the country of origin had anything to do with any problems.

I respectfully disagree, Sherry, but should know better than to be cheeky in a controversial thread like this. My apologies for that. Hopefully this will just die off and everyone can go about using the brand(s) of glass that they prefer / want to try, without the kind of unpleasantness that's gone on here.

It would be nice if overall, threads around here could stay more 'on topic' with the OP's intended subject instead of digressing into something else.

Ok, I didn't read everything what was posted. I just wanted to see if there are more problems with certain color combos. I'm sorry in what direction this thread went. I thought this forum is there for a exchange of experiences.

I never did mean to hurt anybody or try to hurt a business.
I like the colors of devardi glass, no question and the service was always more than excellent. I like Natasha and do not want to hurt her and I will still order from her.

Natasha, please take my apologize.

So, this thread is closed!! Please!

If Natasha is reading this:

I'm only one person, but I'm sure there are dozens more like me that love the glass and are really excited about it. I plan to order much more in the future, and I sure was doing some browsing on your website last night for the frits. I'm such a frit ho! :D

Great answers, Luna!!! You were thinking only of the physical as opposed to the chemical.

1. What makes glass rods shocky? Air in the rods.Take it a step farther, why is the air get in the rods

2. What causes glass to need to be worked at lower temperatures or in the back of the flame? same thing? Having to work glass cooler can be a remedy for shocky rods, but think of chemicals that if added or taken away could cause this.

3. What makes a glass stiffer even though it has the same coe as another glass? I believe Tink & John said "viscosity", & that's from the chemical makeup of the glass. Good, so dig deeper.

4. What causes a glass not to flow so that it cannot be shaped in the flame? Lack of heat, or lack of viscosity And what causes this to happen?

5. What is "burning" glass really and why does it happen? Too much propane in your flame.Very good, almost there. Now why does an excess of propane do this on some glass and not others?

6. How can the chemical composition of glass be changed by adding heat? I'd have to ask a chemist, but I'm sure they'd have an answer. Or you could do the research yourself and find out the reason.
7. What causes glass to foam? Think along the lines of the batching process.

I look forward to seeing you post this information in all the moretti/effetre/vetrofond issues threads, Pam.

You can start with the Achy Brakey Artichokey thread :)

I'm not going to post in there since I've never used the color. That doesn't seem to be an issue for you, so I'm sure they'll all look forward to your input-and perhaps everyone will just switch to BE, then there will be no need for these threads.

(somewhat tongue in cheek, somewhat cranky-my 8 year old AND my husband are both home today, plus we're having a repairman for our freezer and another guy repairing something else so it's just too many damn people in my house on a Friday in the day time.)

Why would she be posting in another thread? Here are the questions do you know the answers or is it that it is of no interest to you likes to make glass stuff?

I've already stated answers for several of her questions in previous posts in this thread. I'm not digging it back up. Kalera and I went through some of them pretty extensively.

I feel that the questions are intended to be devardi specific, and as Pam has not used Devardi, nor seen it as far as she's posted either in rods or beads.

I do not feel like playing what I believe is a game with her. Since she edited Luna's responses the way she did, it really feels like a game to go back to her initial posts along the "devardi is worthless" song and dance.

ETA-why she would be posting in another thread-perhaps she has actually touched glass made by those manufacturers? Has seen or used it? Might have some actual working advice to *help* someone with a problem?

Exactly. Why haven't we heard any explanations on some of the other glasses that are having problems? There are posts reporting the same stuff as here. Please let us know the answers to those questions also. Thanks you.

Jack

If anyone wants to take a detour from this thread for a little while and see something positive about Devardi glass, then mosey on over to the thread I started in the Gallery.

I don't know if anything is posted yet, but I'm going to mosey on over and see....

Very observant of you. The questions are devardi specific, but pertains to any glass that you find these faults in. If you feel this is a game, then I am sorry for you. Glass is a very demanding material to work with and when I started it was necessary to learn more about it than, obviously, glassworkers feel they need to know today.

And perhaps you don't read other threads that much, but whenever there is a technical question that I think I can add information to or be helpful, I do. When is it going to be more about glass and less about personalities? I don't believe I have slammed anyone in this thread. I try to keep posts to the point of the discussion and not about individuals. I find when people start denigrating individuals all information that could be gleaned from the thread is lost.

As to the opinion that I should use this glass before I make comments, that is just ludicrous. Everything I need to know about this glass is listed on the Devardi site and I am assuming that what is written there is truthful. If you know anything about glass then that site tells you very important things about the material they are selling. If a company tells me that their lipstick is great, but you need to keep it at no higher temperature than 78 degrees or it will melt, and don't put much pressure on the tube because it will crumble, also there have been reported allergic reactions to the lipstick itself, I am probably not going to try it. I can determine from that information that it is not a good lipstick. And just to let you know, I have tried literally dozens of different glasses many years ago and I did learn lots from what was wrong and what was right about them.

When you are learning to read you start by using a book with simple words that easily form complete sentences. "See Jack run." You don't start off with something that says, "Under their respective headings we have endeavored..." When you start out with glass beadmaking you learn how to make a round bead by using the flame to make it round. Hopefully you use a glass that is simple to use and makes it easier to learn the basic techniques involved in making beads without having to make a lot of "adjustments". Most of us learned on Effetre, or Moretti as it was called when I started. It's a very stable glass whose base colors work very reliably. You learn about heat control and gravity. As your education in glass continues, you may branch out into glass that is more demanding, but you learn the basics and build upon that. You also learn to be concerned about the quality of the art that you are creating. You learn things like cracks due to annealing or incompatibility and you learn to tell the difference, and you learn more and more technical information that can have an affect on your artwork.

A head glassmaker once asked in conversation, don't all glass beadmaking artists make sure they are using quality glass before creating their art? Unfortunately I had to answer no, and it has bothered me a lot ever since. We as glass beadmakers need to know more than the techniques used to create our art. We need to know the materials and why they react the way they do.

So, now, go ahead and scream at me in all caps and call me names and insinuate that I have ulterior motives for posting in this thread. I've been on glass forums far to long to be easily insulted. My motive is and has been to encourage glass beadmakers to think for themselves, to learn about their materials and their art.

There are posts right now concerning other glasses that people are having problems with. It would be nice if you could help them out too.

Thanks - Jack

Apparently they were according to her.

Jack

Pam has helped people extensively with glass questions over the years, including many, many posts on Bullseye, on torch chemistry, and a wide variety of other subjects. It's a simple matter to go to her profile and look at her earlier posts if you want access to that information.

Or use the search tool.

You being new does not put anyone under obligation to post what you want to know.

Thank you Lisi!!!! I'm working on getting pictures taken to post on the thread you started in the gallery. And I too am getting another order ready for more Devardi glass.

Please compare your second paragraph to your last paragraph, and also show me where I have done anything you said in the last one.

You quoted me and it sure looks like you are replying to me. If not, could you please specify that?

Check out the diamond clear and the artichokey threads, please. They could use your input as well, I'm sure. I hope you are just as thorough as you are in this one.

I'm not "new", and it's not me that wants answers Kalera. All I wanted her to do was to take a moment to help others right now that have posts asking questions about glass. She's been so kind as to answer some questions here on this thread... why doesn't she do the same for the other current questions? That's all.

Jack

Can you say "jinx" when it's the same sentiment, but worded differently?

;)

Thanks Kalera, but Jack has his own agenda and obviously it has nothing to do with learning about glass.

Jack, I post on threads I see that I think I can add to. If answers are already being given that I believe fulfills the needs of the opening poster, then there is no reason to post. Plus, believe it or not, people are allowed to post on the threads they want to post on. For the past while I haven't had much of an opportunity to post as my father has been in and out of the hospital twice this month and yesterday I had to take him to an emergency office visit to a specialist who determined that what was happening had nothing to do with his specialty and I am sitting here waiting for a return call from another doctor. It's very annoying, but I try hard not to bring my irritation into threads.

I'd also like to point out, for people who are newer to the scene, that many of the questions about this glass arose when the sellers first started marketing it, claiming that it was "more saturated" and "higher quality" than the other glass on the market. They also claimed that it was older... I'd love to have screenshots of their old auctions, because they claimed that it was centuries-old, making the current claim that it's new to the market and never previously available contradictory to their own original claims. Furthermore, I SAW the Bill of Lading, I KNOW what company it comes from, and yes, they DO sell glass rods and have been since before Dan and Natasha started selling it as Devardi.

It's little things like this that originally made me question this glass and the sellers, and their own behavior when asked about it only served to validate my cautiousness. They are sweet if you're buying from them, sure, but the way they treated me and others for asking questions, and the extremely sketchy way in which they "answered" those questions, means that I will never trust them. Even if they started selling US-made glass. The worst thing is that they went back and deleted their abusive posts from the original thread, so you can't even go back and see what I'm talking about. Their shills now deny that ever happened, but I and many other people were there, and saw it. They accused many of us asking questions of working for other glass vendors and having ulterior motives.

The sheer quantity of accounts who come to these threads and never post anywhere else on the forum also sketch me out. There is no other glass on the market that has a dedicated bunch of groupies who only post in threads related to that glass, for the purpose of defending or promoting a specific seller... or, I should say, there hasn't been lately. Not since Ornela.

Maybe that answers some of the questions about why there are so many suspicions around this glass. There's history to it. That is why people react so vehemently to posts about problems with it.

Use it if you want, that's your business. But I don't think it's reasonable to make claims that it's of equal quality to Effetre or Vetrofond and expect glassworkers with 20+ years of experience using and MAKING glass not to refute those claims.

It seems that you're the one who has an agenda here Pam. Why on earth would I? I just kindly asked for you to help out some fellow lampworkers that have questions on other current threads. You've had plenty of opportunity to post here on this particular thread.

Jack

I have recently gotten caught up on the Devardi discussions here and elsewhere.

I have no agenda and I have no opinion about this glass since I haven't even seen it, much less used it. But I will admit the extreme defensiveness I've seen from Devardi supporters has put me off a little bit. I am not really all that anxious to try it at this point. I'll keep reading, though, as the discussion hopefully evolves.


Andrea

Oh, then you already know how to use the search feature and look up Pam's many posts here. So... why are you demanding that she go post in other threads right now?

](*,)

Demanding?????? wtf??? Where did I demand anything? Good grief Kalera.

Jack

You have asked in a number of posts now for Pam to go to some other threads and posts answers there. I'm not sure why you're so insistent that she post in those other threads rather than the ones she is currently active and engaged in, but I think that if you are eager to see evidence of her helpfulness across a wide array of subject matter you should use the search function and look up her post history.

Serious questions for you:

If you find a product that is 1/4 the cost of others, and works at least half as well, would you use it?

If you wanted to continue using that product, and it seemed like a lot of people who had never used that product were very negative about it, calling it worthless and saying to throw it away and never use it again, might you respond saying you liked it?

I've had a few very unpleasant responses made to me in this thread. I have not posted in kind. I don't post on any other forums. I only read here and WC.

Devardi is like a toddler. It can be really, really amazing stuff. It's highly imperfect in form. If you are willing to spend some time playing and working with it, you can have some great results. If you expect it to do what you want, every time, you need to forget using any other glass than bullseye-which is like the full grown lady of glass :)

I'm sorry if you feel my responses are relevant to what you stated.

Now your just being silly and argumentative. I will not go there Kalera.

Jack

Seriously now. What's up with that?

Absolutely not, and I mean that in equal seriousness. "Works at least half as well" as a general standard is completely unacceptable to me.

Yes, if I liked it I would respond saying I liked it, and saying why. Hopefully I'd stop there.

I've never used Bullseye.

I don't want to have to coddle glass when I use it. To me that's different than figuring out HOW to use it.


Andrea

The next time someone replies to me saying anything about screaming or yelling again, replying in all caps, conspiracies again, or acting like God, I'll be using the word "liar". All of those things have been posted in response to me in this thread, and none of them have been backed up.

Please, if someone wants to accuse someone else of something after replying to me, start a new thread. Or at least clarify that I am not the subject of said admonishment.

Thank you.

I don't know about the artichokey thread because I haven't seen that one, but Pam was a huge help in the original DC thread. She posted several times. Pam is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to glass chemistry and issues I can't even begin to understand. She's sincerely trying to help, and I don't understand why there is backlash against her.

Sincere and non-demanding questions for a person who has a wealth of knowledge that I believe would be helpful to the other questions that are now being asked in Tips & Techniques. That's "What's up with that" Kalera.

Jack

I realize the question was directed toward Andrea, but I would never for a moment consider wasting my time on a glass (or anything, really) that worked "half as well". Say, a car that only started half the time, or only got me halfway to where I wanted to go... LOL! A fridge that keeps things half as cold... a shovel that only turns half the dirt. Maybe a computer that only connects to the internet half the time... Hee! Nope.

That said, there's no reason not to use cheap glass to experiment with or learn on, and at least by the time you graduate to better glass you'll be an expert in dealing with problems.

:lol: Well. Four times seems pretty demanding. After the second time it came across more like "I don't like what you're saying, shut up and get out of this thread". By the fourth time, I was starting to really wonder. Especially given how vastly helpful she's been in many, many other threads, including similar threads to those which can be easily searched by anyone with an interest.

Just sayin'.

1) completely fair. Everyone has their willingness level to do things.

2) imagine you do say you like it and why, and the other people-who have never even seen said product-keep on going, and then more folks with that mindset appear saying similar, negative things. You still really like the product, and are concerned-because it happens, especially on these forums-that the group of non users will drown out the lesser known supporters. Can you see some of the lesser knowns taking similar tactics to the more well knowns? Plus, there is some back story here-not in the posts present. nastiness from both sides, in all honesty.

3) If you don't want to coddle glass, Bullseye is your buddy :) Most COE 104 users who try it just love it since it's not so persnickety.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I'm through wasting my time on your argumentative posts Kalera. Find someone else and waste their time. Thank you.

Jack

You drive a Volvo, and use a Mac? Windows OS has a lot more problems than Macintosh does. Aren't Volvos known for their reliability?

I should have been more clear, I apologize.

Glass that costs 1/4 the price, but is more difficult to actually use. Say twice as hard as easy italian glass colors. Hard to phrase well in half, but I think you can see what I mean.

very funny Karlera:lol::lol::lol:

Consistency and reliability tend to be reflected in how much things cost. Not always, but often.

I haven't seen it this way. I wasn't in on this from the beginning, I understand a lot of information has been deleted, which makes me wonder even more, but most of the time when people post problems they are having with glass, people either commiserate or try to help. The Devardi discussions have gone way past that and I was just giving my overall impression in my first post here.

Thanks for the recommendation, but I have invested time in other 104 glass and I like it. Since I've figured out a few things about the glass I already like and already work with, I have relatively predictable outcomes at the torch. No coddling is necessary once I learn what I need to know in order to best use my tools and materials.


Andrea

Actually, yes, I do drive a Volvo 940 wagon, and I am posting this from a Mac. :lol:

And no, I would not use glass that was twice as difficult to use, regardless of how cheap it was, unless it had a very significant payoff like being twice as beautiful. If it was twice as beautiful I might buy it and take the extra time to figure out how to work with it, even if it cost twice as much.

But no, I would not pay less for glass that is just OK, but twice as hard to use. For me, the extra time spent at the torch fussing with difficult glass would more than eat up any cost savings, so unless it's really worth my while in extra beauty, it would actually be costing me money in lost productivity. Not to mention lost patience. #-o

Kalera, this is totally getting off the subject (sort of), but what you stated here got me thinking about a few things in my life, and I got to laughing so hard I almost inhaled my coffee!

I do have all of those things right now! LOL!!!!

1) a car that starts half of the time, the solenoid sticks and I have to get out and bang it, ugh...

2) a fridge that is screw-off, the ice maker gets stuck so watch out when you open the freezer door!

3) my garden tiller needs a tune-up as it chokes and sputters, and useless me can barely use a shovel to turn this rock/dirt we S FL folks have...

4) my internet - hah! Daughter has my laptop for the last month now, and I've got the ol' Dinosaur Desktop! :rolleyes:

;) :D

First of all, Kalera, the devardi people NEVER said their glass was "a higher quality" than any other glass. They did say it was more saturatated with color only, which I tend to find to be true. You wouldn't know because you haven't used it. But don't put words in their mouth. You wonder why they got defensive last year when a lot of you did the very same thing.

There’s a big difference in those on both sides of this argument, other than the fact that they disagree with each other. Those that favor the glass, all of them have tried it. Of those who oppose it, I can see only maybe a couple have used it. Even the gal that started this thread says she will continue to use it, but just ran into a problem with some particular combinations with other glass. So, those that use the glass tend to love it. Those that haven’t, well how can you trust their opinion? They make no sense. How can you try to discredit a glass that you haven't tried?

The thing is, those of you on this thread and others that oppose the glass were rude to the Devardi people when they first entered the market. You gave them the third degree and berated them as though they were doing something wrong bringing this glass to marked. But that’s ok with you. Then, the Devardi people were defensive back to defend themselves, which you refer to as rude. Mixed up, man!!! And that wasn’t ok with you. You didn't see it as ok to defend themselves. So now your intent is to discredit the glass because they defended themselves. That’s what this is all about. It’s not about the glass. Most of you have never even used it. It’s about you not standing for anyone that defends themselves against your offensiveness.

Do you use silver glass and/or odd lots? I don't use odd lots myself because I like to be able to get the same glass regularly and that isn't often the case when or if they remake one. Silver glass I tend to be willing to work out, even with batch variations. Each color is a whole new ball game, but it's fun.

Just like those things I mentioned, once you figure it out, it's the same thing with devardi. Usually, like most pinks from anyone and handpulled glass, it's work it cool if you have problems. I don't "coddle" devardi. I just consider "frit on a stick" rods much more difficult to work with.

Someone has to be that person ;)

Check out the semi opaques from devardi sometime. Many of them are just gorgeous-and those are what makes it worth the effort to me.

I do use odd lots and silver glass, and I agree, once I figured some things out about them, they were fun to use. I was responding to what you said about Devardi working half as well, and about it being like a toddler. If you misspoke before when you said those things, and you are now saying Devardi is just like other glasses (besides the "mom" Bullseye) then I am truly confused, and I think I'll just go back to reading.


Andrea

Oh Lisi! OMG you made me laugh so hard! I feel bad for laughing, but the ice-maker part... :lol: :lol: :lol: I hope you aren't stuck with all those half-working things for too long!

They most certainly did, when they stated that the other glass on the market was cutting corners by not making as saturated a glass. By saying other products are inferior, the inference is that their product is superior. There were a lot of interesting statements in those original auctions.

They made a lot of statements that were unfounded and got defensive when they were called on them. And they got insulting. Then they deleted their posts. I didn't delete any of mine, because I didn't say anything I felt the need to hide.