What is the temp difference between HH systems and dual-fuel?

krisb16 · #1 2010-01-05, 9:45pm

I've always heard the dual-fuel is hotter than a HH system. Does anyone know approx. how hot the two systems can get?

De Anza Art Glass Club · #2 2010-01-06, 12:01am

A quick, rough answer is that a propane-oxygen flame is about 1000°F greater than a HH using propylene/MAPP.

A HH is about 3600°F. A propane-oxygen torch can get up to about 5100°F but under working conditions is less (I've seen 4600°F and as low as 4000°F) depending on the fuel to oxygen mixture.

I've seen arguments that "you can't really tell" because different references give slightly different numbers, but the references give consistent numbers within a narrow band, so I've given some round numbers.

I'm sure you'll get better answers soon; if not, I'll look at more references tomorrow. If you have "More than you ever wanted to know about glass beadmaking", I'm pretty sure that there are tables with flame temperatures in one of the chapters.

krisb16 · #3 2010-01-06, 11:44am

Thanks!

Dale M. · #4 2010-01-06, 4:38pm

Just to clear up a misinformation phrase, the is no such thing as a "dual fuel" torch (at lease not in lampwork world at this time) ...... I don't know where the phrase "dual fuel" came form but its just wrong.....

There are two types of torches, a fuel/air such as a Hot Head and the fuel/oxygen torch like a minor or bobcat, or cricket or national 8m or many others...

All these are are a single fuel torches and use either air or oxygen as a oxidizer to support enhance combustion....

Also depending on your source of information the difference from a fuel/air torch and a fuel/oxygen torch is anywhere from 1000° f. to 1500° f. hotter for the fuel/oxygen torch ... Also one has to take into consideration the fuel being uses as some fuels like naturals gas is not quite as "hot" as propane....

Dale

metalbone · #5 2010-01-06, 7:48pm

i don't think a HH gets to 3300°F, if it did, it could easily melt steel and make boro very liquid. Probably tops out at around closer 2500°F or vicinity.

Shrimp · #6 2010-01-06, 9:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Just to clear up a misinformation phrase, the is no such thing as a "dual fuel" torch (at lease not in lampwork world at this time) ...... I don't know where the phrase "dual fuel" came form but its just wrong.....

Dale

Then what are the extra knobs for on the GTT Scorpion?

Dale M. · #7 2010-01-06, 9:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleta

Then what are the extra knobs for on the GTT Scorpion?

Multiple fuel inlets and oxygen inlets (valves) are used to control different aspects of how much flame is produced (inner and outer rings) and control of flame chemistry....

It still uses only one fuel and one oxygen source..... Yes I guess it may be possible to use NG for inner flame and propane for outer flame on many multi-valve torches, but flame chemistry is probably going to go out the window, and I have not heard of anyone actually doing this...

Also people can run a oxycon for inner flame and tanked oxygen for outer flame for that extra push..... But technically its still oxygen/fuel flame...

Dale

Shrimp · #8 2010-01-06, 10:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Multiple fuel inlets and oxygen inlets (valves) are used to control different aspects of how much flame is produced (inner and outer rings) and control of flame chemistry....

It still uses only one fuel and one oxygen source..... Yes I guess it may be possible to use NG for inner flame and propane for outer flame on many multi-valve torches, but flame chemistry is probably going to go out the window, and I have not heard of anyone actually doing this...

Also people can run a oxycon for inner flame and tanked oxygen for outer flame for that extra push..... But technically its still oxygen/fuel flame...

Dale

Thanks for the explanation Dale. I really need to get to one of these flame-offs to witness these multi-valve torches in action. Would these type of torches be more suitable for glass sculpting, blowing and larger objects?

Dale M. · #9 2010-01-07, 7:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleta

Thanks for the explanation Dale. I really need to get to one of these flame-offs to witness these multi-valve torches in action. Would these type of torches be more suitable for glass sculpting, blowing and larger objects?

Every body will have a different opinion on what is best big torch.... It comes down to how much heat do you need .... The great thing about some of the bigger torches is controllable, they have basically two (or three) torches in one, you can run small inner fire for smaller work and then ramp up outer flame to do larger work with inner flame plus outer flame..... Some of the better system use foot pedals to control outer flame, so you can have that heat on demand similar to using accelerator pedal in a car....

Then there are combination torches, generally the large torch on bottom with smaller torch mounted on top.... You can use either big torch or small one or have both on at once depending on amount of heat needed to work object...

Dale

Tanner Studios · #10 2010-01-09, 2:01pm

I have to disagree with Dale. and according to the dictionary the definition of fuel is. "Anything burned to produce energy or heat." And Oxygen fits that description.

So there are duel fuel torches.
Scott

ArtcoInc · #11 2010-01-09, 2:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanner Studios

I have to disagree with Dale. and according to the dictionary the definition of fuel is. "Anything burned to produce energy or heat." And Oxygen fits that description.

So there are duel fuel torches.
Scott

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Oxygen in not a fuel, it is an 'oxidizer'; an element necessary to support combustion, but it is not a 'fuel'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizing_agent

"... an oxidizing agent is a substance that is not necessarily combustible, but may, generally by yielding oxygen, cause or contribute to the combustion of other material ... "

And, this has been discussed here before:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=72

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...78&postcount=5

Malcolm

Dale M. · #12 2010-01-09, 8:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanner Studios

I have to disagree with Dale. and according to the dictionary the definition of fuel is. "Anything burned to produce energy or heat." And Oxygen fits that description.

So there are duel fuel torches.
Scott

You are right fuel burns to produce heat... But oxygen does not burn, it supports combustion... So without a oxidizer (oxygen/air) fuel does nothing, its for all practical purposes inert!....

This is basic junior high school science........

Dale

Bunyip · #13 2010-01-21, 1:10pm

Obviously Dual Gas and Fuel Gas got combined somehow to Dual Fuel =) You gotta admit it's got a certain ring to it! And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Dale M. · #14 2010-01-21, 5:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanner Studios

I have to disagree with Dale. and according to the dictionary the definition of fuel is. "Anything burned to produce energy or heat." And Oxygen fits that description.

So there are duel fuel torches.
Scott

Actual the is no such thing as a duel fuel torch.... To "duel" is for two opponents to engage in some of a fight or competition... As with guns or swords or compete is some sport....

Now if you want to discuss dual, that is more than one but usually less than three and or serving more than role....

Dale

Dale M. · #15 2010-01-21, 5:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunyip

Obviously Dual Gas and Fuel Gas got combined somehow to Dual Fuel =) You gotta admit it's got a certain ring to it! And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

One may assume the phrase came about from someone whose information was limited and they assumed because there were dual tanks (2 tanks) it was a dual fuel... Not knowing one tank was a fuel and one tank was an oxidizer...

Dale