Barracuda torch question?

[jokersdesign]

Hello,

I'm playing with a barracuda today. I'm using about 3-4 psi gas and 15 psi oxygen on 2 oxygen concentrators.

I'm having a few issues and wondering if other Barracuda users could tell me what’s going on.

First when I'm only using the center fire sometime when adjusting the oxygen to get a more oxidizing flame I get a large 1 inch candle that shots out the side of one of the ports. Does anybody know what this is and why it is happening?

Second when I open the outer fire it seems that I can only adjust the outer oxygen so much or else it seems that I’m taking to much oxygen away from the inner fire because the inner fire candles will get bigger and turn yellow instead of a blue white. Anyone know what I’m doing wrong here?

Then could someone just tell me some basics of the barracuda and how I would tell the difference between a neutral flame, reducing flame, and oxidizing flame.

Robert

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by jokersdesign

Hello,

I'm playing with a barracuda today. I'm using about 3-4 psi gas and 15 psi oxygen on 2 oxygen concentrators.

I'm having a few issues and wondering if other Barracuda users could tell me what’s going on.

First when I'm only using the center fire sometime when adjusting the oxygen to get a more oxidizing flame I get a large 1 inch candle that shots out the side of one of the ports. Does anybody know what this is and why it is happening?

I may not be the one you were expecting any help from, but I do know a thing or two about Bethlehem torches. So, here is some information you may find useful:

O.K., one possibility for that 1" long candle you are talking about is that there may be dirt/debris or something behind that tube cutting off oxygen flow to that jet when you lean on it. Get something very fine (like one of your GTT cleaning wires) and try to get it in the oxygen slot that the tube lays into. You should be able to get it in 3/8" to 1/2" or thereabouts. See if you can get something out. Choke up on that wire as tight as you can with some needle nosed pliers and try to get in that little gap behind the tube to open it up/get it cleaned out.

Now, if you know that you can get the wire through there and it is open and you run the torch and it does the same thing, again, when you try to lean the flame out, and it shoots a finger out, the next possibility is that the torch is peaking out too soon. In other words, it's a bad bud (as the veteran boro workers would say about the old Beths). This means a bad centerfire that peaks out too soon or is just out of whack. THIS LONG YELLOW FINGER IS NOT A BY-PASS FLAME. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BY-PASS FLAME despite what one or two people would try to lead you to believe. Period. End of story.

Originally Posted by jokersdesign

Second when I open the outer fire it seems that I can only adjust the outer oxygen so much or else it seems that I’m taking to much oxygen away from the inner fire because the inner fire candles will get bigger and turn yellow instead of a blue white. Anyone know what I’m doing wrong here?

Then could someone just tell me some basics of the barracuda and how I would tell the difference between a neutral flame, reducing flame, and oxidizing flame.

Robert

It sounds like a concentrator problem - possibly a combination of problems. There is not enough pressure and the purity may be dropping off - which happens when you really start pushing the lpms. You are starving the center when you run the outer.

As far as what your flame chemistry should look like... Didn't you say that you have run a PM2D? Well, the centerfire is the same in a Barracuda, if that helps.

On a Bethlehem torch:

Neutral Flame - There will be very little yellow to white tips on the cones and the length of the cones should be between 1/8" to 3/8"

Oxidizing Flame - You will have pretty much the same length cones. You would be pushing the oxygen harder, so the torch should be hissing. And, you will start to see clear streaks in the blue flame.

Reduction Flame - This is an easy flame to get on a Bethlehem torch. Basically, the candles will get more yellow tipped: 1/3 of the length or more of the cone is yellow tipped and will look somewhat feathered. Once you get a cone over 3/8", you will usually start going into a reduction flame on a Bethlehem torch. Torches can vary (they each have their own personality), so some of them can get longer candles before going into the reduction flame. But around the 3/8" to 1/2" mark is where most of them will start doing that. Just cut back on your oxygen to reduce in any range.

Well, I hope that helps.

[Kalera]

When I'm running my Barracuda on lower fuel pressures I've observed the very long center candle when I go into a reducing flame. It doesn't seem to happen at higher fuel pressure. I have no idea why, it's just an observation. I run mine at around 7 PSI, just because that's how I like it.

With the concentrators, yes, as Kimberly said, basically there's only so much oxygen to go around, so when you open the outer ring it does take some of the flow away from the center. I'm used to it so I just dial my center fire down a bit until it's neutral again. No matter how perfectly your concentrators are running, this will happen because the Barracuda is capable of using a lot more oxygen than they're producing.

[hotflashwanda]

Robert,
I don't see how you could have 15 psi from two concentrators. You have double the oxygen volume of one concentrator, but not pressure--the pressure is whatever one concentrator puts out, which could be around 6-8 psi. That isn't enough to run the outer flame of a Barracuda. That is why your inner candles turn yellow when you have the outer flame on. I have been using a Barracuda for a couple of years now, first with an OG-15 generator with a surge storage tank and now with oxygen tanks. The OG-15 ran the outer flame for up to 15 minutes but then the surge tank would be emptied out and the flame would get oxygen starved as you describe. I really recommend using oxygen tanks if you are going to use the outer flame.
Your concentrators will run the center flame just fine. To eliminate the little yellow finger of flame you are describing, try to adjust your flame gradually--a tiny bit of adjustment on the Cuda will make it go from neutral to oxidizing on the inner flame. If you get a little crooked yellow flame you can just barely crack the outer oxygen knob and it will go away. I have heard of some people using concentrators who got some condensation in the air jets during certain weather conditions and that caused their flame to be as you described. I never experienced that, though.
Anita
www.fireflybeads.com

[Mr. Smiley]

I'm on 2 M-20's and it's plenty to run it. I open both Oxygen valves wide open. Adjust the flow on my concentrators to get good purity and the right volume for a wide open flame. Then I never touch the oxygen. If I'm using my center fire only, the outer oxy is still on. I rarely turn my outer fire all the way off. I can adjust all the flames I need with just the propane knobs. Coming from tanked oxy, it took me some getting used to. I find it easier now. If you don't upset the balance of oxygen distribution between the first and second stage, you'll be golden. Try it and see what you think.

[hotflashwanda]

Well, I didn't consider the possibility that Robert might be working with two M-20's! That's a whole different matter...
So, Robert, if you have those instead of the more common small concentrators, feel free to disregard my advice!
Anita
www.fireflybeads.com

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by hotflashwanda

Robert,
I don't see how you could have 15 psi from two concentrators. You have double the oxygen volume of one concentrator, but not pressure--the pressure is whatever one concentrator puts out, which could be around 6-8 psi. That isn't enough to run the outer flame of a Barracuda.

I get 15 psi from two concentrators because I have opened them up and turned the built in regulator up to 15 psi and checked the psi with a pressure gauge. I then checked the oxygen output purity % with a common oxygen analyzer several times before, during, and after torching and amazingly the oxygen purity has always stayed around 94-96% at 15 psi.

What about the Integra 10? I’ve read that it outputs 10 lpm at 7-9 psi and it is claimed to be able to run the Barracuda inner and outer flames. If the Integra 10 can do it then, surely 2 concentrators with the same or greater output should be able to do it.

Originally Posted by hotflashwanda

I have been using a Barracuda for a couple of years now, first with an OG-15 generator with a surge storage tank and now with oxygen tanks. The OG-15 ran the outer flame for up to 15 minutes but then the surge tank would be emptied out and the flame would get oxygen starved as you describe.

I have a used OG-15 coming and am considering an OG-20. Do you remember if you had a 30 gallon or 60 gallon surge storage tank?

When I talked to OGSI they told me the 30 Gallon would run the outer fire of a Phantom for 7-10 minutes. So I asked if they had a larger tank and he said I could get a 60 gallon and it should run the Phantoms outer fire for double the time. So I would think that would hold true for the Barracuda also.

Also, turning on the valves up slowly did help from keeping the yellow flame from shooting out the side and when the yellow flame would still shoot out the side it worked to just open the outer fire a little.

[Mr. Smiley]

Why would you only want to run the outer fire for 15 minutes? That seems aweful limiting to me. I'd get all nervous. The two M-20's have done me right so far. For much less money. I'm going to cart them up to Ahseville so people can see them run. Anybody that wants to come to the meet and greets, feel free. I'll have it set up.

[jokersdesign]

Kim, I love how you QUOTE posts to keep things simple and clear so they don’t get lost and are easy to read.

Originally Posted by kbinkster

O.K., one possibility for that 1" long candle you are talking about is that there may be dirt/debris or something behind that tube cutting off oxygen flow to that jet when you lean on it. Get something very fine (like one of your GTT cleaning wires) and try to get it in the oxygen slot that the tube lays into. You should be able to get it in 3/8" to 1/2" or thereabouts. See if you can get something out. Choke up on that wire as tight as you can with some needle nosed pliers and try to get in that little gap behind the tube to open it up/get it cleaned out.

I did this and no difference.

Originally Posted by kbinkster

Now, if you know that you can get the wire through there and it is open and you run the torch and it does the same thing, again, when you try to lean the flame out, and it shoots a finger out, the next possibility is that the torch is peaking out too soon. In other words, it's a bad bud (as the veteran boro workers would say about the old Beths). This means a bad centerfire that peaks out too soon or is just out of whack. THIS LONG YELLOW FINGER IS NOT A BY-PASS FLAME. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BY-PASS FLAME despite what one or two people would try to lead you to believe. Period. End of story.

I think you nailed it on the head KIM. I was going to post and ask about this as I remember reading in another post about a year ago saying something about the Barracuda shooting out a finger when there is to much oxygen going through it’s ports. I also remember reading that it was a BY-PASS FLAME and was a built in safety feature.

Interesting, so there is no BY-PASS FLAME and my Barracuda center fire is a bad bud or just whack?

Way to go Bethlehem, way to make a quality product.

Originally Posted by kbinkster

As far as what your flame chemistry should look like... Didn't you say that you have run a PM2D? Well, the centerfire is the same in a Barracuda, if that helps.

No. But I did mention in another post that I thought that Bethlehem made a mistake in discontinuing the Piranha and if they were going to discontinue a torch I thought it should be the PM2D because the Bethlehem Great white outshines the PM2D and does not need to be water cooled.

Also with no Piranha that leaves no entry level $160-200 ish torch, only a $400 plus torch. Guess a lot of people will be wanting bobcats or mini cc’s.

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Why would you only want to run the outer fire for 15 minutes? That seems aweful limiting to me. I'd get all nervous. The two M-20's have done me right so far. For much less money. I'm going to cart them up to Ahseville so people can see them run. Anybody that wants to come to the meet and greets, feel free. I'll have it set up.

Brent,

I am considering the M-20’s as an option. I’m also looking at the Pro-4 from onsite gas, and I’m looking at a micro booster that can be used too refill tanks.

I’m also waiting to hear how you worked the Cyclone II

And with the M-20’s, I’d still consider a holding tank because the M-20’s could fill the tank and then shut off and as you empty the tank the M-20 would kick back in and refill the tank.

This way your not stressing the M-20’s as much buy running them always on while torching.

[hotflashwanda]

Robert,
If you've altered your concentrators so they are each putting out 15psi with good purity, and haven't blown out a sieve bed yet, then why get a new generator or other concentrator? Sounds like you've got a good setup going.
I have the 30 gallon surge tank. The 60 gallon would be twice as good, for sure!
Glad the little yellow finger of flame was eliminated--what you described is a common feature of the Beth larger torches. I don't seem to have the problem now that I'm using tanked oxy and higher pressures. Everyone I know that uses the Beth torches just cracks the O2 a bit. I love their torches, don't see them as defective in any way. I love my Lynx, too! Actually, I've never met a torch I didn't like. Or glass, or tool....
Anita
www.fireflybeads.com

[kbinkster]

Robert, so, that the finger is still there? Heck. I was hoping that the cleaning and poking around could clear that up for you.

I thought you might remember that guy on the GLDG who had the same yellow finger problem. He gave me his phone number and Willy called him and walked him through the process of clearing it up. There was debris in the torch that caused the problem and he was able to clean it out. The torch quit making the finger. If this were a by-pass flame, designed for safety, I don't think it would have disappeared after a cleaning.

Now, in his case, the torch was not like that when he started using it. It was a problem that popped up one day. Is this torch a new or used torch? Has it always had the finger? If it is still shooting out that finger after you made sure that it was clear, I would suspect a bad bud. If it was running this way right out of the box, I would suspect a bad bud.


Anita, products can have defects and still remain functional and loveable. And, just because there is something commonly occurring in a line of torches, that does not mean that it is not a defect.

[R4GlassStudio]

I have seen jets shoot out in an odd fashion a bunch of times. from what I have seen, it was always the purity of o2 that caused it. It can happen if you lite the torch to soon after starting the concentrator or by running the lpm on the concentrator too high, bringing it's O2 purity too low.

Now for the cyclone II. I have one in my shop right now. We ran a few tests on it. First off, I have to say the Cyclone II side is still "up for review". We did run the Great White off of it at 100% with no problem at all!! In fact we were only pulling about 60% of the cyclone II's ability to do it. It put out 50 lpm with no problem. However, it was using a gas powered compressor to push it.
The Cylone I.... Really nice. We ran 3 Piranhas at 70-75% of what it could do. It could run 4 of them easy, but I don't think it would push them all at 100% if they were all being run hard. It did power the Cuda at 100%. It also powered a Cuda and a Piranha, but not at 100% (more like the 20P on a Cuda). When we get a new Cyclone II this week, I'll run the tests on it again. My guess would be that it could run 8 to 10 seven jet torches. Pricing so far, not set in stone yet, is $2500 on the Cyclone I and $4200 (plus compressor) for the Cyclone II. The extra compressors run around $600. Once again, I can not say if these are good yet. More testing needs to be done.

[R4GlassStudio]

Kblinkster - Sorry I didn't use GTT in the description of what the Cyclones do. I tested it on what I had in the studio at the time. Please give them a call and post your findings on these concentrators. I am by no means partial to one concentrator over another. These are too new to say what they can really do. Plus, my knowledge on concentrators is limited.... We've always been on tanks. Thanks for the help, I'm sure many people here would like your feedback.
Ron Jr.

[MikeAurelius]

I've seen the Beths do this as well, and it has *ALWAYS* been when the oxygen pressure has been way up high and the oxygen valve is opened to its fullest.

To me, it's an indication that you are trying to push too much oxygen into the torch head. Because of the odd direction of the flame, you are actually losing heat by allowing this to happen -- remember that too much oxygen in your flame is a cooler flame.

[kbinkster]

As for the "finger" issue...

The guy who discussed this problem on the GLDG was running tanked oxygen. When he came onto the GLDG looking for an explanation, Ron, you told him that it was a by-pass flame, a built-in safety feature. It turned out that there was something behind the face that was causing his finger. And when that was cleared up, the problem went away.

I believe what Robert is describing is very similar, a single whacky candle shooting out to the side of the jet appearing when adjusting the oxygen. The thing with Robert's torch, though, is that his finger didn't go away after checking for blockages and cleaning.

I know what you are talking about, though, when the oxygen purity is low, like when first firing up after just turning on the concentrator. The yellow/white tips on the candles will just grow out quite a ways and then back back down. This affects pretty much all the candles, not just one.

About the Psyclones I and II...

That's encouraging, Ron. How was the purity at the higher output pressures?

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

I've seen the Beths do this as well, and it has *ALWAYS* been when the oxygen pressure has been way up high and the oxygen valve is opened to its fullest.

To me, it's an indication that you are trying to push too much oxygen into the torch head. Because of the odd direction of the flame, you are actually losing heat by allowing this to happen -- remember that too much oxygen in your flame is a cooler flame.

That does happen when you push a lot of oxygen through.

But, if the finger comes out before the torch has reached its full potential, that could indicate a problem.

If you're not screaming the oxygen to the point where the oxygen is feathering the flame, but rather running a smooth flame, and it does this, then it could mean that either there is something stuck behind the head in a little oxygen slot, or that the centerfire is messed up.

[R4GlassStudio]

I've never used the word "by pass" flame. you are confusing me with someone else. On the other forums I am ArtGlassHouse. Built in safety feature sounds like a bunch of BS to me.
When I first read this. Robert's Cuda was being run on a concentrator. If it's on tanks, and performs like that at normal pressure settings, then "I" would send it back to be checked. A longer center candle is normal, but I took this as being one of the side jets on the center fire.

[kbinkster]

My apologies, Ron. You're right, you didn't use that term. It was Mike who used that term. He said that he talked to Bethlehem and was told that this was a "design feature." You simply said:
I talked to Bethlehem and "Mike is right on target".

So, it was obviously Bethlehem themselves who put this out about a built-in feature and you and Mike were just relaying the information given to you.

Back to Robert's torch...
I, too, took it to mean one of the side jets of the center fire. He states that he is using a couple of concentrators at 15 psi, so that makes the jets-acting-weird-due to high pressures thing unlikely, IMO.

EDIT: After re-reading the thread, I see that Mike says that he read that someone else had asked Bethlehem about this and was told that this was a "design feature."

[R4GlassStudio]

Kbinkster - Thanks for trying to keep me honest. That post was July 19th, 2005. Please go back and read it. It wasn't me who said "by-pass" flame. I did agree with that person about how the torch performs when you run too high of pressures, but I commented only on the post right before mine, not theirs from the beginning. Just to remember I posted is amazing. You really have a good memory!

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

I've seen the Beths do this as well, and it has *ALWAYS* been when the oxygen pressure has been way up high and the oxygen valve is opened to its fullest.

To me, it's an indication that you are trying to push too much oxygen into the torch head. Because of the odd direction of the flame, you are actually losing heat by allowing this to happen -- remember that too much oxygen in your flame is a cooler flame.

That could be. I would of never thought of it because I'm using 2 oxygen concentrators set at 15 psi output. The barracudas documentation says it can go up to 25 psi.

[jokersdesign]

Yes this issue is a side jet, not the center jet.

This is a drawing of what it kinda looks like.

http://users.mn.astound.net/jokersdesign/barracuda.jpg

I'm going to try and clean the jets again and take a real picture.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by R4GlassStudio

Kbinkster - Thanks for trying to keep me honest. That post was July 19th, 2005. Please go back and read it. It wasn't me who said "by-pass" flame. I did agree with that person about how the torch performs when you run too high of pressures, but I commented only on the post right before mine, not theirs from the beginning. Just to remember I posted is amazing. You really have a good memory!

Ron,

The post immediately before yours read:

Just about all the Barracuda's will do this - mine does it if I open the oxygen valve too far, even with the pressure set at 20 PSI. There was a thread on this on the old board about a year or so ago, and if I remember correctly (which I may not), the person had called the Beth rep and was told that this is a "design feature" to prevent overloading of oxygen in the fuel/gas stream. But as I say, I may not be remembering this correctly.

Every 'cuda and piranha I've seen will do this IF the oxygen valve is opened too far with the oxygen pressure set high.

To which you responded:

I talked to Bethlehem and "Mike is right on target". Even when you set the correct PSI for O2 and Propane, it doesn't mean you can open the torch valves all the way. If the flame is loud and fast, it isn't being run correctly. We have talked about this over the past two years, where an artist came form another style of torch and tries to "push" the same amounts of gas/fuel though the Beth. Or, perhaps, the artist is stuck in their mind set (a normal thing), that the faster, louder flame is hotter. This is not true in Beth torches. Back off the PSi or don't open the valves as far. Keep the flame quiet and the o2 / Propane mix correct and you'll have a very efficiant, quiet..... HOT torch.
Ron Jr.

Again, I apologize for attributing the term "by-pass flame" to being said by you. Mike used it earlier in the thread and then reiterated that the flame in question was intentional, to the best of his knowledge. You followed up right behind him saying that he was correct. You did not say that he was incorrect about a "by-pass flame" or that the flame was not a built-in feature. Further, you did not dispute the by-pass flame notion when Mike thanked you for backing him up:

Thanks, Ron. I appreciate the support. Even though "some people" who say "there is no such thing", when in fact, there is. Having hands on knowledge of the torch is the key, and an open mind that each torch manufacturer makes torches differently and each torch "style" needs to be run differently.

That was what really led me to believe that you agreed with him on everything he was saying.

So, I hope you can see why I mistakenly attributed the term to you as it appeared to me that the two of you were on the same page regarding the issue.




At any rate, I certainly don't want this to derail the thread here.


EDIT: I just want to make something clear, so that it isn't misunderstood... about the "by-pass" flame.

I do not believe that Mike came up with the notion that this "by-pass" flame was a built-in safety feature. I really believe that he was simply passing along information that he thought was correct because it came from the manufacturer (either directly or through someone else).

Mike's description about what happens when you pass too much gas through that torch is correct; that this is an intentional feature designed into the torch (whether for safety or not), is malarky. And, I blame the company for putting that one out there, not the individual(s) trying to be helpful by passing along information.

[jokersdesign]

These photos are not that great. The first 2 picture are normal and the other 4 pictures show the finger.

http://users.mn.astound.net/jokersdesign/B1.JPG
http://users.mn.astound.net/jokersdesign/B2.JPG
http://users.mn.astound.net/jokersdesign/B3.JPG
http://users.mn.astound.net/jokersdesign/B4.JPG
http://users.mn.astound.net/jokersdesign/B5.JPG
http://users.mn.astound.net/jokersdesign/B6.JPG

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by R4GlassStudio

Kblinkster - Sorry I didn't use GTT in the description of what the Cyclones do. I tested it on what I had in the studio at the time. Please give them a call and post your findings on these concentrators. I am by no means partial to one concentrator over another. These are too new to say what they can really do. Plus, my knowledge on concentrators is limited.... We've always been on tanks. Thanks for the help, I'm sure many people here would like your feedback.
Ron Jr.

Oops! I didn't see this post earlier.

GTT does not have the Psyclone to test. Your results sound encouraging, so far, though.

[Justin L]

Originally Posted by jokersdesign

I get 15 psi from two concentrators because I have opened them up and turned the built in regulator up to 15 psi and checked the psi with a pressure gauge. I then checked the oxygen output purity % with a common oxygen analyzer several times before, during, and after torching and amazingly the oxygen purity has always stayed around 94-96% at 15 psi.

Are you running some Devilbiss units?

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by Justin L

Are you running some Devilbiss units?

Of course!

I think I might need to get more. I even have a OG-15 and I don't like the OG-15 as much as I like the Devilbiss units.

[Kalera]

Oh, I missed the part where y ou said it was a side port. Sorry 'bout that!

[Justin L]

Originally Posted by jokersdesign

Of course!

I think I might need to get more. I even have a OG-15 and I don't like the OG-15 as much as I like the Devilbiss units.

MC series or Solairis series? You're hooked

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by Justin L

MC series or Solairis series? You're hooked

I would never use MC series, only solairis series.