Mini cc set up.... fethery uplifting flame problems

sleekbeads · #1 2006-05-05, 8:23pm

I know there is a thread down there about this but it's for a minor and my questions pertain to a mini cc.

I just set up my studio in the garage after graduating from a hothead.
Everything is running fine, I think!
No leaks!

I'm used to the mini cc at my friend Mari's studio that is run on tanks.
I am using my mini with an oxycon.
It works fine, hot as it should be, and everything I expected it to be, so I'm happy there....

however, the flame TIP is feathery and curving slightly upward.
This could be completely normal for my set up, I don't know.
When I work at Mari's on the tanks, it is a strong steady flame that points straight out in front of me.

Just want to be sure I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be.

My propane is set at 5 and my oxy con at 5 lpm.
No leaks.

I don't have a ventilation system that could be sucking the flame upwards though! I am in the garage and using fans like Mike A. told me to, BUT BUT BUT... when I ran this test to try out the torch, I didn't have the fans running. When I saw the flame slightly curving upward, I closed the large garage door and small door for just a minute to see if it was the wind, but it still happened.

any suggestions?

IF that is a perfectly normal thing to happen on a mini cc with an oxy con, hey, no problem, I can deal with it... just don't want to ruin anything.

It was also pretty cold here today. (??)

Thanks for any information.

Joanna

kbinkster · #2 2006-05-06, 12:06am

What is the overall length of the blue flame, your normal working flame? Is it 6, 7, 8 inches or more from the face of the torch to the visible end of the flame? Take a tape measure out and get a rough measurement. Don't get the tape measure too close, though.

Your concentrator may be underpowered. But, the length of that flame can tell you if you're running within a safe range. If it is too short and soft of a flame and is curving upwards, it can be dangerous for your torch. Once your soft flame is getting 6" and shorter, you risk overheating the torch. If your flame is 6" or shorter, but is focused, it will have some thrust to it and would be o.k. to run.

sleekbeads · #3 2006-05-06, 10:28am

Hi.
Oh it's definitely over 6 inches!
the flame from the torch comes out straight at least 6 inches and then curves upward.
What is causing that?
I also think I only let my concentrator warm up that day for about 10 minutes... I should have went 20 I think.
What do ya think?

Joanna

somberbear · #4 2006-05-06, 10:34am

it sounds like a pressure problem... you could also be running your propane to high. the concentrator im playing with requires about a min before all the fuxuations are out of it. so i let it run then cut it back then cut on my propane and then adust my oxy.

Three Muses Glass · #5 2006-05-06, 12:57pm

The flame on my mini is feathery and sort of uplifted at the end. It's always done that though. If I want a smaller sharper flame I turn the gas down. I have NG and 2 oxycons. I love it just for that reason, the kind of bushy softness to the flame, but I don't have anything else for comparison.

glassdream · #6 2006-05-06, 1:34pm

My minor does the same thing and I posted about it awhile back because when I worked with an instructor the flame seemed much stronger...I was told that when using an oxycon the flame would not be as "forceful" as with tanked oxy. Seems to work fine-melts glass alot faster than my HH did!!

pointerspoint · #7 2006-05-06, 1:36pm

I set up my Mini CC last week and the last one-third of the flame is wispy, feathery. The part I actually work in is fine, and at first it bugged me as the Hot Head didn't do that. However, after a week of working on it I don't really notice it anymore. I assume that it's working fine otherwise as the flame looks the way it's supposed to and melts the glass fine. I like the softness of the flame and I got the Mini CC because I wanted a fatter flame for doing small sculptural things. So I look at the wispiness as a trade-off for getting the bushy flame I wanted. The knobs on my torch are not getting hot so I think my oxycon is doing its job okay.

sleekbeads · #8 2006-05-06, 2:16pm

Yep, I just spent two hours at the torch and everything is fine.
I too let it run for a minute or two before I did anything and then adjusted accordingly.
WOW, am I ever tickled with the results of upgrading from a hothead to a mini cc.
What a great investment that was!
Joanna

PaulaD · #9 2006-05-12, 11:59am

Try lowering your propane psi to 2. Paula

kbinkster · #10 2006-05-13, 11:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulaD

Try lowering your propane psi to 2. Paula

I would be careful about doing this. It is not good for most regulators to be run this low and some will start fluctuating. You say that you are running 5 psi. A couple pounds either side should not make any noticeable difference at the torch.

Further, there is no need to lower propane pressures at the regulator, as it is the needle valves of the torch that control the gas going into the torch.

BUT, if your valves are not precision enough to make subtle changes, you might have to rely on making the adjustments at the regulator.

If you want to see what using less propane will do for the flame, first try to make the adjustment using your propane valve on the torch. If that doesn't work, then try the adjustments with the regulator. Carlisle has good valves, though, so you should be able to make all the adjustments at the torch.

As it is, with your flame being as big as it is and just turning up at the tip of it, your torch is probably just fine and not in danger of overheating the face. If you start running a smaller flame, bringing the up-turned part closer than 6" to the torch face, you may start overheating the face. Your flame needs a little thrust to it to keep it from overheating the face.

PaulaD · #11 2006-05-13, 8:42pm

The Mini CC weas designed to run at 2 psi propane and 5 psi oxygen. This is in their printed literature and was Carlisle's advice when I set up my studio. I have 10 of them running at 2 psi propane and 5 oxygen and they are pretty spectacular at that setting. I did get a special gage for my regulator so that I could set it that low. If you need verification of these numbers feel free to call Carlisle.
Paula

kbinkster · #12 2006-05-13, 9:10pm

Quote:

I did get a special gage for my regulator so that I could set it that low.

That's part of my point. Regular regulators often have trouble at such low settings. And, it really isn't necessary to set them that low. When a torch company gives a recommended pressure setting, it is usually the minimum setting at which the torch will perform well. You should be able to set the pressure much higher than that - up to whatever they say their valves can take. The needle valves control what gets to the torch. The last time I checked, the valves on a Mini CC were precision enough to make subtle changes at pressures higher than 2 psi.

Oh, btw, there is virtually no difference at the torch between 2 psi and 5 psi.

Furthermore, and more importantly, lowering the pressure/flow of the propane at either the regulator or at the torch with the needle valves, will likely have no effect on the flame curving upwards like has been described here. The problem is not with the fuel, it is with the oxygen.

Quote:

If you need verification of these numbers feel free to call Carlisle.

No, I'll take your word on it.

PaulaD · #13 2006-05-13, 9:21pm

Carlisle says their Mini CC torches perform better at the lower settings.
And mine work much better at 2 and 5 vs 5 and 10. Carlisle actually said not to use the higher settings. I'm sure they'd be happy to discuss the technical reasons with you...Paula

kbinkster · #14 2006-05-13, 11:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulaD

Carlisle says their Mini CC torches perform better at the lower settings.
And mine work much better at 2 and 5 vs 5 and 10. Carlisle actually said not to use the higher settings. I'm sure they'd be happy to discuss the technical reasons with you...Paula

Since it's the weekend, why don't you discuss the technical reasons for this? I'd be happy to listen...

How exactly do your torches run so much better at 2 and 5 than at 5 and 10? What differences are you seeing?

Speaking of running the oxygen at 5psi, there are several places where you post about how much the Mini CC rocks on liquid oxygen. Are you asserting that you run your liquid oxygen at 5 psi and that somehow, the fact that it is liquid oxygen has made the torch perform better? Now I'm really curious. How can 5 psi on a liquid dewar be different than 5 psi from a cylinder (other than the fact that you don't have to change out tanks as often)?

I don't get why you are being so argumentative. It is possible, you know, to disagree with me without the tone - just as I disagreed with you without a tone. All this "if you need verification" and "I'm sure they'd be happy to discuss" stuff smacks of ... I don't know what. Why would I need to call to verify anything? I have never implied that you were misquoting numbers.

You said for her to lower her regulator pressure. I said to be careful doing that because running typical regulators at lower pressures can cause problems. I went on to explain that lowering the pressure at the regulator is not necessary, as it is the needle valves that control what gets to the torch.

So, what part of what I'm suggesting do you disagree with? Do you disagree that setting a regular regulator to low pressures (like 2 psi) can cause fluctuations and possibly shorten the life of the regulator? Or, are you disagreeing with the fact that needle valves control what gets to the torch?

I'm always interested in having intelligent discussions regarding technical issues.

Justin L · #15 2006-05-14, 10:48am

maybe she just works differently than you?

Anyway, I had a customer who had weird fluctuation problems with their concentrator. They ran up one side of me and down the other on how the concentrator wasnt working right. So, I sent her a replacement. Same thing.

In the meantime, I got my first concentrator back and it performs perfectly.

We figured that with turning her propane regulator down so low (since it wasnt supposed to really go that low) that it was causing the problems. I think she is saving for new regulators, but havent heard anything new yet.

kbinkster · #16 2006-05-14, 11:08am

Look, people work however they want, but that doesn't mean that it is the best for their equipment. There are some things to keep in mind when setting up, one of them being that running low pressures will affect most regulators used by lampworkers.

There are consequences to actions. If you want to run your torch ultra low, then by all means run it low, but don't be upset when you carbon it up or erode the center tube. If you want to run your regular regulator at 2 psi, then do it, but don't be surprised if your flame starts fluctuating and you wreck your regulator. And when someone suggests that hey, you really don't need to run ultra low pressures because the needle valves control what goes into the torch, and that running those low pressures affects regular regulators, take it for what it's worth - agree with it or not - but don't start in with the snitty comments.

sleekbeads · #17 2006-05-15, 8:56am

Oh goodness, I didn't mean to start a war with my questions.
However, I do appreciate all the advice I've gotten.
I ended up calling Carlisle.
They told me that I could set my propane around 3 BUT that it didn't matter since my adjustments are at the torch anyways. So even if I set it at 5, the difference would be at the torch knobs, not the regulator.

Anyways, everything is working fine now, I just needed to fine tune a little.
Sorry for the ruckus, and appreciate the replies I get on this forum.

THANK YOU!!!!

Joanna

PaulaD · #18 2006-05-15, 9:14am

Great Joanna,
It's always best to go to the source!
Enjoy your torch!!
Paula

kbinkster · #19 2006-05-15, 9:49am

I'm glad to hear you got it all straightened out (pun intended).

DFS · #20 2006-05-22, 9:21pm

Kim,
Can you clarify something for me? I get what you are saying about hte regulators needing to be run at a certain level, so are there regulators that are designed to run at the low psi's that have been recommended fo the mini cc? Also, if you are running the regulator lower than its optimal setting, does this create the carbon build up? If there are regulators that are meant to run at lower psi's (in line with the the 2 psi Carlisle recommends) would this reduce build up? I guess I am wondering what the heck causes the build up. It is so cool to hear the technical stuff that goes beyond what is in the literature that came with my torch. Thanks for all the info.

Joyce

kbinkster · #21 2006-05-23, 10:32am

Hi Joyce,

There are regulators designed to run at lower levels. Pancake regulators can be preset to run at low levels.

Setting your regulators low will ensure that you cannot get a big flame. If you set your regulators higher, you can still work a small flame, but you can get a bigger flame when you need it. It is your needle valves that ultimately control how much of the gas gets to the torch - you just adjust the flame with the knobs.

If Carlisle is recommending that people run their torches at 2 psi, then all I can say is that they must be ready to back it up with a warranty, so go ahead and run it that low.

Carbon buildup... When a torch is run too low, the metal tubes inside get hot. At the same time, fuel is not being combusted competely. So, the carbon from the fuel (that isn't burned) will stick to the dead spaces around the hot metal tubes and get baked on. The low flame will also cause the ignition of the gases to take place closer to the face of the torch, right off the jets. This makes the torch get even hotter and also keeps the fuel and oxygen from mixing correctly, leaving uncombusted fuel. So, there again, you get that carbon from the fuel getting stuck to hot metal and getting baked on.

You told me elsewhere (I believe it was you) that you were running 3/8" candles. If that is so, and your overall length of your flame is longer than 6", something is wrong. You should not be getting carbon buildup.

Has your torch ever popped when you turned it on? A slight pin leak could cause premixing and that could cause your torch to overheat, which could in turn cause carbon buildup.

kbinkster · #22 2006-05-23, 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFS

It is so cool to hear the technical stuff that goes beyond what is in the literature that came with my torch. Thanks for all the info.

Joyce

You're welcome.

DFS · #23 2006-05-23, 3:30pm

Kim,
Actually, I have not goten carbon build up (knock on wood) yet. I was just curious about whether that was a likely event given the conditions I am using to run my torch. I am not sure what the overall length of my flame is, but I would guess that it is over 6". If the candles are 3/8" and the falme sis greater than 6" will this reduce the likelihood of carbon buildup? Thanks. Where were you six months ago with all this great info? I think I have learned more about everything in the past two weeks than I the past six months combined.

Joyce

kbinkster · #24 2006-05-23, 3:42pm

Joyce,

I'm glad to hear that there has been no carbon buildup. That is good news! Running your candles at 3/8" and your flame longer than 6" will reduce the likelihood of carbon buildup.

And to answer you question, I had a baby seven months ago, so six months ago I was in pretty rough shape (no sleep).

Well, I'm still not getting enough sleep, but I think I'm getting used to it. lol

DFS · #25 2006-05-23, 8:54pm

Kim,
Congrats on the baby. With two of my own, I would like to say that the hard part is over, but it gets harder and easier in so many ways. I started about six months ago and noticed some old threads (on WC) from you that were really informative, but there was nothing recent. Glad to know you are back. Thanks again.

Joyce