Pls Write Warnings on Tuts

[Maria Louisa]

Originally Posted by Hayley

am currently working on one for sale.

Can't wait.

[Alison D]

O.K. I can see two wordings for usage statements

1) The purchase of this tut gives the purchaser unlimited use for recreation and sale of all merchandise made by the purchaser from information in this tut. The tut itself is not shareable or transferable.

2) The purchase of this tut gives the purchaser the right to the knowledge of the technique contained hearin. Please do not copy this/these bead/s for sale. The tut itself is not shareable or transferable.

This is all that was asked for, it is very simple, and I can't understand how it became such an issue.

Peoples working style, learning behaviors, ethics etc. don't come into it. People simply need to know if you are selling a pattern or a technique or both.

Everytime someone has got back to this point people come back with emotions and everything but an answer.

Please help us help you and explain why this won't work. There hasn't been a clear answer. People can't read your minds and they don't want to try. If as some you state that people can do whatever they please then why do you have a problem with the first statement. If you do have a problem with the first statement thats O.K with every one. That is what #2 or something similar would cover.

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse but this hasn't been answered and I am really trying to figure out just what the stumbling block here is.

If you are worried about China (and you probably should be) all they have to do is purchase a tut from you and start mass producing it. Just like they can do with the books and dvds out there.

Alison

[sarah_hornik]

Okay, you know what?

Some people don't need to be told how to work with dichro, but in case they do, if they buy Think Pink they will find it in there.

Some people don't need to be told that clear glasses are not appropriate eye protection for torch work - many would probably even find it condescending if I told them that - but I have realized while teaching that some people DO need to be told, so it's in Think Pink too.

Nobody NEEDS to be told about the history of Rubino Oro in order to successfully execute the beads in the tutorials in Think Pink, but I personally love to know as much as I can about the colors I work with - I feel it adds depth to my work. So yeah, it's in there too.

And, some people don't need to be told how a writer feels about selling beads like the ones in a tutorial, but I figured that if I wrote a tut I'd get asked a lot, so my honest opinion is in there. No restrictions, just a "this is what I would do", written with the best of intentions.

This thread kind of makes me want to say "forget it, I'll just write need-to-know-basis tutorials from now on, so I don't have to face this kind of thing". But no, need-to-know-basis is not that interesting for me, and really, the responses to TP have been overwhelmingly positive - from everyone, from the newest of newbies who can't wait to get on the torch and try out all the new stuff, to lampworkers who are WAY more "well known" and experienced than I am, who have told me that even THEY learned something from it. So I'm not going to get all bitter over one thread.


People are saying they don't want to be faced with moral dilemmas when they buy a tutorial, but you know what? Whatever the writer says or doesn't say - if you care about this kind of thing, you're still going to have a dilemma.

Let's say you bought a tut by XXX, you made a bunch of beads that bear striking resemblance to XXX's beads and now you're considering selling them on eBay, where XXX also sells their beads. XXX may have no issues with this at all. They may have issues that they have decided to keep to themselves. They may be ecstatically happy to see how close your beads are to theirs, knowing that they did a good job explaining the technique in their tutorial.

Your dilemma here, mainly, is if you care about your own reputation as an artist. I'm not saying that you must, and I'm not saying that any of this will necessarily have an effect on that anyway. But when you put those beads up for sale, you probably know that there's a chance some people would look at them and think "oh, that looks a whole lot like XXX's beads". They probably won't "flame" you anywhere or even say anything about it, they'll probably just walk away with that thought in their minds. Others might have never seen XXX's beads before, and when they see yours they'll be thinking "Wow, those are really cool and original and I want one!" And others might see the resemblance, but not really care about this kind of thing. There's no way of knowing who's going to see your beads once they're posted online, and no way of telling everyone who sees them that you have someone's authorization to make the beads - and no one who can tell you how to feel about that.

The dilemma is yours, not the tutorial writer's - especially not the tutorial writer who has clearly stated that it's up to you. Even if the tutorial says "YES! Please sell these beads!" - it's still up to you. You might not care about this kind of thing at all, which is ABSOLUTELY your right. You might care, and decide to give it some thought. Either way, no one can really tell you what to do, and no one can take responsibility for your own decisions.


If a tutorial is actually restricted in any way, buyers should be informed before they buy. If a tutorial is NOT restricted, I don't think anyone needs to care so much what it says. "We don't want you to use THAT text to say that it's up to us, we want you to use THIS text, why won't you just do that already?"

Why does it matter so much?

[artic^wolf]

I mentioned way back in the beginning of this thread that I have seen limits and restrictions on tutorials, that are not lampworking tutorials. They were always (as in every time) part of the author's copyright. Perhaps the easy thing is to add your copyright to whatever page your selling the tutorial from. I have noticed some already do this.

Sarah is correct, no one has any right to decide what should be included in the tutorial itself, if she or anyone wants to add her thoughts on subjects such as sales and or copying, it is their right. That statement is different from the legal terms of a copyright...no?

Afterall, IF an author did chose to limit the use of the tutorial it would take legal action to stop someone who did not adhere to the legal copyright. I hope all authors have a copyright stated on their work, personally I think it is dangerous to just assume people realize that the work is copyrighted.

One of the ways this differs from purchasing a book: I can open the book and find the page containing the copyright and read it BEFORE my purchase. I'm noticing more and more online book merchants sharing the copyright on books.

I really feel this is a win/win for both parties. The author has put the legal copyright out there, and the purchaser knows what their part of the purchase includes. Protection for both parties

[Ever After]

Originally Posted by sarah_hornik

Okay, you know what?

Some people don't need to be told how to work with dichro, but in case they do, if they buy Think Pink they will find it in there.

Some people don't need to be told that clear glasses are not appropriate eye protection for torch work - many would probably even find it condescending if I told them that - but I have realized while teaching that some people DO need to be told, so it's in Think Pink too.

Nobody NEEDS to be told about the history of Rubino Oro in order to successfully execute the beads in the tutorials in Think Pink, but I personally love to know as much as I can about the colors I work with - I feel it adds depth to my work. So yeah, it's in there too.

And, some people don't need to be told how a writer feels about selling beads like the ones in a tutorial, but I figured that if I wrote a tut I'd get asked a lot, so my honest opinion is in there. No restrictions, just a "this is what I would do", written with the best of intentions.

This thread kind of makes me want to say "forget it, I'll just write need-to-know-basis tutorials from now on, so I don't have to face this kind of thing". But no, need-to-know-basis is not that interesting for me, and really, the responses to TP have been overwhelmingly positive - from everyone, from the newest of newbies who can't wait to get on the torch and try out all the new stuff, to lampworkers who are WAY more "well known" and experienced than I am, who have told me that even THEY learned something from it. So I'm not going to get all bitter over one thread.


People are saying the don't want to be faced with moral dilemmas when they buy a tutorial, but you know what? Whatever the writer says or doesn't say - if you care about this thing, you're still going to have a dilemma.

Let's say you bought a tut by XXX, you made a bunch of beads that bear striking resemblance to XXX's beads and now you're considering selling them on eBay, where XXX also sells their beads. XXX may have no issues with this at all. They may have issues that they have decided to keep to themselves. They may be ecstatically happy to see how close your beads are to theirs, knowing that they did a good job explaining the technique in their tutorial.

Your dilemma here, mainly, is if you care about your own reputation as an artist. I'm not saying that you must, and I'm not saying that any of this will necessarily have an effect on that anyway. But when you put those beads up for sale, you probably know that there's a chance some people would look at them and think "oh, that looks a whole lot like XXX's beads". They probably won't "flame" you anywhere or even saying anything about it, they'll probably just walk away with that thought in their minds. Others might have never seen XXX's beads before, and when they see yours they'll be thinking "Wow, those are really cool and original and I want one!" And others might see the resemblance, but not really care about this kind of thing. There's no way of knowing who's going to see your beads once they're posted online, and no way of telling everyone who sees them that you have someone's authorization to make the beads, and no one who can tell you how to feel about that.

The dilemma is yours, not the tutorial writer's - especially not the tutorial writer who has clearly stated that it's up to you. Even if the tutorial says "YES! Please sell these beads!" - it's still up to you. You might not care about this kind of thing at all, which is ABSOLUTELY your right. You might care, and decide to give it some thought. Either way, no one can really tell you what to do, and no one can take responsibility for your own decisions.


If a tutorial is actually restricted in any way, buyers should be informed before they buy. If a tutorial is NOT restricted, I don't think anyone needs to care so much what it says. "We don't want you to use THAT text to say that it's up to us, we want you to use THIS text, why won't you just do that already?"

Why does it matter so much?

and thats that..

[Alison D]

I guess it is safe to assume from the non answers again that those that have responded would really like to use statement # 2. Thats fine but we all wish you would make that clear to the people buying you tuts.

One more time Sarah this is not a moral issue. It is just your way of avoiding the issue. How the information You put out there is used is your call not the buyers. We can all safely assume from your posts that statement #2 really should be on your tuts. The only problem with assuming is people can't read peoples minds.

Vauge threats about peoples integrity really dosen't answer the question.

Sarah people CAN'T make their own call untill they know in black and white the true intent of the authors. Theeeeeeeeeeeeen thay can make there own call. First it's your ball then it's their call.

[sarah_hornik]

Originally Posted by Alison D

How the information You put out there is used is your call not the buyers.

Originally Posted by Alison D

Vauge threats about peoples integrity really dosen't answer the question.

Originally Posted by Alison D

Sarah people CAN'T make their own call untill they know in black and white the true intent of the authors.

I completely and totally disagree, I don't think I'm being vague OR making threats, and if I still haven't answered the question then I guess I don't know what that question is.

[Ever After]

[LAG]

The horse is dead. Can we stop beating it!

[sarah_hornik]

"Here's a burger. You can eat it if you want. I'm not going to eat it, because I'm a vegetarian."

"You have no right to tell me not to eat this burger!"

"I'm not telling you not to eat the burger."

"Stop telling me what to to with the burger! I have every right to decide for myself."

"I agree. You should decide if you want to eat the burger or not."

"So, are you asking me to read your mind? How should I know if you want me to eat the burger?"

"No, I'm telling you to make up your own mind about the burger."

"You have no right to tell me to make up my own mind! You gave me the burger, and now you must tell me if I should eat it or not!"

"At some point, you will have to make up your own mind about eating the burger. I don't even know if you're hungry."

"You are being vague and making threats!"

*sigh*

[BeadMaven]

I don't think the horse it dead unless you call ambiguity an answer.

I think its safe to say, read this thread and you will see how cares and who doesn't. Those who don't say one way or another don't really want to see their tut beads in the same venue (they use) for sale...but its only the tut authors who have participated in this thread...which leaves many others out there.

I think the bottom line would be if I listed beads from a tut I'd give the author credit for the techniques I used in making the beads.

[Ever After]

Originally Posted by artic^wolf

I mentioned way back in the beginning of this thread that I have seen limits and restrictions on tutorials, that are not lampworking tutorials. They were always (as in every time) part of the author's copyright. Perhaps the easy thing is to add your copyright to whatever page your selling the tutorial from. I have noticed some already do this.

Sarah is correct, no one has any right to decide what should be included in the tutorial itself, if she or anyone wants to add her thoughts on subjects such as sales and or copying, it is their right. That statement is different from the legal terms of a copyright...no?

Afterall, IF an author did chose to limit the use of the tutorial it would take legal action to stop someone who did not adhere to the legal copyright. I hope all authors have a copyright stated on their work, personally I think it is dangerous to just assume people realize that the work is copyrighted.

One of the ways this differs from purchasing a book: I can open the book and find the page containing the copyright and read it BEFORE my purchase. I'm noticing more and more online book merchants sharing the copyright on books.

I really feel this is a win/win for both parties. The author has put the legal copyright out there, and the purchaser knows what their part of the purchase includes. Protection for both parties

Lori , NO arguments there at all, if there are restrictions put on them it should be stated, and I think everyone has agreed to that,
with there being no such restrictions I have nothing to state..
except for the tutorial in itself, © ya know?


Sarah, can I have bacon on my burger?

We have answered this umpteen billion times but are told we are not asnwering the questions. (we=the authors who have chose to repsond, or that have seen this thread)

[sarah_hornik]

Originally Posted by Ever After

Sarah, can I have bacon on my burger?

Make up your own mind!!!

[Ever After]

bead Maven, but but but, the whole venue thing started when I said, how do I feel? about you making them just like mine , listing them, just like I do, and claiming them as your own design? and my reply was that I would leave that up to the artist, and I still feel that way..I honestly answered a question, way back in the prehistoric days of tuts..lol
in which I think it made it easier for all the forthcoming authors to know what the people wanted to hear, obviously they didnt want to hear "Its your call" but I support it..But I had already said it... cant take it back..

which by the way was never stated in any tutorial, just during some questions after its release,

I have actually endorsed some people selling them that have done awesome jobs with them!

and where you said, youd give the tut author credit, I think thats beyond awesome!!
not necessary, just so very respectful! and kind.

I have a serious head cold kickin my butt so Im talking a bit more suessian, (if you can imagine that)
and I really feel Sarahs post up there really said it well.



edited (head cold kicking my butt, haha IM a butt head) ya i got a fever..

[Hayley]

Sarah -

I completely understand where you are coming from. Isn't the original intent of this thread a REQUEST for tutorial writers to have their disclaimer up front so buyers may see them and make their own decision before purchasing the tute (at least I hope it was)? Yes, once the discussion started, some posts did come across as people telling the writers what to do (and perhaps the posters did intend it that way). But honestly, at the end of all this, it's really the writers' prerogative as to how they want to word the disclaimer. No one has the right to dictate to them what to say. If they want to be vague, then be vague.

Having said that, I think the second request of the OP is very reasonable - putting the disclaimer up front on the tutorial promo page so that the buyers are aware of what they are purchasing. What do you think?

[sarah_hornik]

I think I see no reason for a disclaimer, and that this thread has not convinced me otherwise.

[Ever After]

Originally Posted by Hayley

Sarah -

I completely understand where you are coming from. Isn't the original intent of this thread a "REQUEST" for tutorial writers to have their disclaimer up front so buyers may see them and make their own decision before purchasing the tute? Yes, once the discussion started, some posts did come across as people telling the writers what to do (and perhaps the posters did intend it that way). But honestly, at the end of all this, it's really the writers' prerogative as to how they want to word the disclaimer. No one has the right to dictate to them what to say. If they want to be vague, then be vague.

Having said that, I think the second request of the OP is very reasonable - putting the disclaimer up front on the tutorial promo page so that the buyers are aware of what they are purchasing. What do you think?

I agree Hayley, but if youre not restricting it, what is to disclaim, ?

[Hayley]

Sarah - I thought you said that you already had some sort of disclaimer on your tutorial? Something about your expectations - that you leave it up to the buyers to decide? Or perhaps I was reading it wrong? That's what I meant by "disclaimer" - whatever you already got in your Think Pink tutorial . . . I think the request in this thread is for writers to put that copy up front in their promo page.

[sarah_hornik]

What Laurie said.

"I leave it up to you decide" is not a restriction.

[Hayley]

Laurie - I guess my choice of wording is confusing . . . ok not the "disclaimer" . . . but I think what I am hearing is that most buyers want to see the copy (if there is one) regarding the expectations of the writers (it can simply be "make your own decision") BEFORE purchasing the tutorial.

ETA: yes, it's not a restriction, Sarah - but frankly, I think a lot of people still would like to see that BEFORE purchasing . . .

[Ever After]

understood,
ok im gonna go do some nyquil shots,
love you guys

go make beads

[Hayley]

Feel better, Laurie!

[artic^wolf]

Perhaps the water is muddied from terminology, although it might just be my muddied mind,lol.

Disclaimer is different from the copyright. The copyright should include the legal use of said product. Whatever it may be. If it isn't stated in the copyright, I'm guessing one would have a hard time enforcing it legally.

I agree with the authors participating...they are answering your (everyone) questions.

Being respectful and kind is a different animal, and can't be enforced legally. But I'm with you Laurie, it would be nice if it were more universal

[sarah_hornik]

Originally Posted by Hayley

Laurie - I guess my choice of wording is confusing . . . ok not the "disclaimer" . . . but I think what I am hearing is that most buyers want to see the copy (if there is one) regarding the expectations of the writers (it can simply be "make your own decision") BEFORE purchasing the tutorial.

I'm actually not hearing this from any of my buyers, although I have urged them, numerous times throughout this thread, to tell me if this is something that has caused them to wish they hadn't bought the tutorial.
(That's what disclaimers and warnings are for, right? Preventing people from buying something, being unpleasantly surprised and then wishing they hadn't?)

Seriously, what would be the point of "Warning: this writer thinks you should make your own decisions"?

[Hayley]

First of all, you are absolutely right - "Warning: this writer thinks you should make your own decisions" is just plain silly. But putting the copy you already have in your tutorial on your promo page will work. . . again, it's just a suggestion.

[sarah_hornik]

I don't know. I think most people viewing that promo page probably haven't read this thread, and would be thinking to themselves "WTF is she talking about?"

[Hayley]

I just read your blurb . . . and do have to agree that the way you have written it has no place in the promo page! lol!

[sarah_hornik]

Woohoo! Many thanks.

[Hayley]

I am off to read your TP now, thanks, Sarah!

[loribeads]

You know how sometimes you just KNOW you shouldn't get involved in a thread but you have an out-of-body experience and post it anyway? Well, this is one of those times for me.

I took a class one time and during the class the teacher expressed how she would like us to learn the techniques taught in the class and use them in our own designs. After the class, she actually brought out printouts of a former student's ebay auctions to show how that person was copying her. I was afraid to make anything using those techniques learned during that class. I thought she would print out my ebay auctions and show them to her next class!

So, I guess my point is this: Even though you think your wording is meant to express how you feel about being copied in a "decide for yourself" kind of way, you have no idea how that information will be digested. For me, it means I'd better not use any of those techniques or I will be the topic of discussion the next time you need an anecdote to illustrate your point.

In response to Sarah's post:

Let's say you bought a tut by XXX, you made a bunch of beads that bear striking resemblance to XXX's beads and now you're considering selling them on eBay, where XXX also sells their beads. XXX may have no issues with this at all. They may have issues that they have decided to keep to themselves. They may be ecstatically happy to see how close your beads are to theirs, knowing that they did a good job explaining the technique in their tutorial.

I would think that they bought the tutorial and did very well at learning how to make the beads in the tutorial. That's all.