Oxygen LPM - Page 3

Mr. Smiley · #61 2006-05-30, 8:15pm

The funny thing is Kimberly, you NEVER suggest a bigger concentrator with higher PSI output for a GTT. Why? A GTT needs more PSI than the Betta. The Betta is specifically designed for use with lower pressures and you all of a sudden feel the need to suggest a more expensive concentrator now... this is why I don't like you. You are not consistant and you play all innocent when I confront you with it.

Mr. Smiley · #62 2006-05-30, 8:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin L

All the arguing!!

It bothers you now? Get involved if you feel left out.

kbinkster · #63 2006-05-30, 10:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

The funny thing is Kimberly, you NEVER suggest a bigger concentrator with higher PSI output for a GTT. Why? A GTT needs more PSI than the Betta. The Betta is specifically designed for use with lower pressures and you all of a sudden feel the need to suggest a more expensive concentrator now... this is why I don't like you. You are not consistant and you play all innocent when I confront you with it.

What are you talking about? I never specified which concentrator to buy or how much money to spend. I just said to look at one that puts out a lot of psi.

I asked Rose what psi her concentrator put out. She did not give out that information. Some concentrators put out 3 psi. Others put out 5 psi. Still others put out 8 or 9 psi. Most of the ones I have seen out there used for lampworking are the 5 LPM machines. The 8-9 psi units don't necessarily have to be expensive. Anyway, the specs for the Betta say 20 psi oxygen for maximum performance. So, naturally, a concentrator with a psi output of 8 or 9 psi would give better results than one that puts out 3 or 5 psi.

As far as GTTs needing higher pressures to operate than a Betta...

Yes, the Phantom (and larger triple mix torches) requires slightly higher pressures than standard torches.

However, the Bobcat does not require high pressures to operate. It is a standard torch. The Bobcat will operate at its maximum performance at about 5 psi. The Betta maxes out at 20 psi. So, as far as the Bobcat goes, no, it does not require higher pressure than a Betta to achieve maximum performance.

The Lynx maxes out at about 12-15 psi oxygen. The Lynx is also a triple mix torch with much smaller orifices through which to pass the fuel and oxygen. Again, the Betta maxes out at 20 psi. In other words, if you want to drag everything out of a Lynx, you would need to run it with the oxygen between 12-15 psi. If you want to drag everything out of a Betta, you would need to run it with the oxygen at 20 psi. And when you do drag everything out of the Lynx and compare it to what you get when you drag everything out of a Betta, there is basically no comparison. So, to achieve maximum performance, the Betta would require higher pressure than the Lynx. But, that has not been the thrust of my conversations regarding the Betta.

My point has been that I do understand the claim about the Betta being able to run on lower pressures - I am just pointing out that while it will run at lower pressures, the performance will not be the same as it would be at higher pressures. It is pretty tricky to put the word out that the torch was designed for low pressures, but to then post the specs based on it running at high pressures.

I am not saying that it won't work at lower pressures. So, don't try that angle again.

The other thing that I have been saying is that other torches run quite nicely at low pressures like 5 psi. When someone exclaims that it is "finally possible to work all types of glass on a concentrator and natural gas," it makes it look like never before was there a torch capable of working different types of glass while running on NG and a concentrator and that just is not true.

As far as recommending concentrators... I routinely recommend and talk about concentrators that put out higher psi. I have often made mention of Pam being happy with the OG20 for running her Cheetah. I myself use and recommend the Integra10 for the Lynx. I will not recommend the M20 until testing of the units is complete. But, if Wally gives me some positive test results, I will recommend it. So, I don't see where you come up with this business of me not recommending concentrators with higher psi output for GTTs.

You are so busy trying to read things into what I post that you fail to actually read and comprehend what I do post... this, among other things, is why I don't like you. It seems as if I have to come in and set the record straight every time you open your mouth. Many times, I can post something and you will respond as if I had posted something else, entirely.

You come across as the type of person who likes to talk and talk and talk, but never listen. You also come across as someone who cannot stand to be told that perhaps he is doing something incorrectly. You can tell Lewis Wilson that he doesn't know how to dial in the correct flame on a Barracuda, but you won't listen to me when I suggest that you did not know how to dial in the correct flame for working soft glass on a GTT.

So, this is why we will always be at odds. You view everything I post through a certain set of lenses. No matter what, you will try and find something to disagree with and argue about whenever I post.

EDIT: Yes, it was the 'cuda, not the Betta, that Lewis tested. Thanks for pointing that out.

Mr. Smiley · #64 2006-05-31, 3:35am

I have observed all of your advise on torches over the past several months... I have tried to give you the bennefit of the doubt. So many times. It's the repeat and cumulative negative attitude towards Beths that I just don't like or agree with. Sure, some of the GTT line will operate and make fire at lower pressures, but they simply do not compare to the new Betta at those pressures. Test one and see. When I say it is finally possible to work all types of glass at the low pressures, I'm talking about working them well. The torch puts out an amazing amoutn of heat, with a very kind flame atmosphere compared to any other torch I've run. I worked on a Bobcat briefly again yesterday and it was on one medical concentrator. It just hasn't got the ooomph to work boro well at that level...

When I was talking about the CUDA test (not the Betta, as far as I know, he hasn't tested the Betta), I did say that Lewis and the other 2 glass workers had little or no experience on the Cuda. The Cuda's "hot" flame looks and sounds much different than a GTT's hot flame. It's just one reason that the test may not have been very accurate. I know Lewis has melted far more glass than I have. He's been at it 35 years... He's a friggin master at what he does. However, he performed a test on a torch he had already dismissed. You can't tell me that doesn't skew your results a little. He did the test during or after the big ole "torch war". I never said he did anything to skew the test intentionally. I never actually said the test was wrong... just maybe it was, based on a weird result I think Andrew Brown had, where in fact... the cuda was faster on the 5/8 " rod for him. I think Lewis is a great guy and has a LOT to offer us in terms of torch review. Everybody works different and even though I don't see eye to eye with him on this one, I like him. Even though I don't see eye to eye with a lot of people, I get along with them. Act all innocent and think that I'm a big ole meanie if you want. Say we don't get along because of my character flaws. I really don't care what makes you at peace with yourself. I know what has transpired between us... I know you won't admit some things about it... fine. I do hope you have a wonderful day. Suggest anything you want and I'll be right here to do the same for people. Maybe we can find some way to peacefully coexist and maybe not. Time will tell.

Until then, people will just have to wade through a bunch of senseless crap to get the info they are looking for.

Mr. Smiley · #65 2006-05-31, 4:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by collectiblesbyrose

OK...getting another concentrator. I've got so dang much money invested in this glass hobby what is another couple of hundred. Sigh....

Rose, before you go out and just buy another concentrator, try turning down your single unit to 4.5 LPM. Just see if maybe your unit preovides better purity at that level and do some adjustments at the torch to see if that makes a better flame for you. Better purity can mean more heat at a lower LPM setting. I'd definitely tinker before I spent the extra money. If that still isn't enough flow, then you can get another one and boost the performance that way.

So sorry about the other "stuff". I hope you make it down this far.

now...

pam · #66 2006-05-31, 4:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by collectiblesbyrose

Good grief.
Ok...so running my Betta....should I keep the concentrator LPM all the way up to 5+? If I buy another concentrator and connect them, should I leave them both open to 5+? I have my oxygen control on my Betta screwed all the way open is why I think I need another concentrator. Although the Betta melts my soft glass FAST and it runs HOT....perhaps I don't need another concentrator?

Rose, You are saying the Betta melts your soft glass fast and it runs hot. So, if you are satisfied with the way it is running why do you think you may need another concentrator? Your concentrator should be set at whatever the person you bought it from suggested, unless you find otherwise from a knowledgeable source. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try it at different settings to see how it works for you. You can also try adding another concentrator, and I am sure you would see more power, but unless I missed another post, you seem happy with the way it is working, fast and hot.

MikeAurelius · #67 2006-05-31, 4:49am

Here's my personal opinion on this whole debate:

Oxygen concentrators and/or generators are stop-gap measures. They have their place certainly, in low flow situations. These companies coming out with new and improved machines, which seem to be nothing more than tweeked medical units, are pushing the boundaries of the machines without coming up with anything new, and most likely, are shortening the lives of the machines, which means, down the road, you are looking at some fairly pricey repairs/rebuilds.

The issue here would be completely resolved by switching to tanked oxygen. Everyone seems to be complaining about the price of oxygen, and try to get around it by using concentrators/generators...yet, have you looked at your electrical bill lately? TANSTAAFL - the oxygen isn't free!

I certainly understand that some people can't use tanks for a variety of reasons - weight, transportation, location etc etc etc, however, the whole point of this thread would be rendered moot by switching to tanked oxygen.

Bigger torches, or torches being "pushed" need a lot of oxygen. You aren't getting "quality" oxygen out of a concentrator - and if you need more than one to run your torch "properly", you prove my point.

Remember that at higher flow (LPM), the actual oxygen content can drop to as low as 92%, depending on the particular machine and how new it's sieve bed is. You have already lost at least 6% (tanked oxygen is about 98% pure), and you can see it in your torch flame. In an environment where we are trying to MAXIMIZE the oxygen flow to achieve complete combustion why oh why would you settle for less than optimal oxygen flow?

Using tanked oxygen, you will get 100% out of your torch, period.

Justin L · #68 2006-05-31, 5:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbinkster

Some concentrators put out 3 psi.

Not any of the medical concentrators or even the Industrial generators I have ever seen...what brands put out 3psi?

Im not flaming you or trying to start an argument, I seriously just want to know...another wrinkle for my brain

Justin L · #69 2006-05-31, 5:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Here's my personal opinion on this whole debate:

Oxygen concentrators and/or generators are stop-gap measures. They have their place certainly, in low flow situations. These companies coming out with new and improved machines, which seem to be nothing more than tweeked medical units, are pushing the boundaries of the machines without coming up with anything new, and most likely, are shortening the lives of the machines, which means, down the road, you are looking at some fairly pricey repairs/rebuilds.

The issue here would be completely resolved by switching to tanked oxygen. Everyone seems to be complaining about the price of oxygen, and try to get around it by using concentrators/generators...yet, have you looked at your electrical bill lately? TANSTAAFL - the oxygen isn't free!

I certainly understand that some people can't use tanks for a variety of reasons - weight, transportation, location etc etc etc, however, the whole point of this thread would be rendered moot by switching to tanked oxygen.

Bigger torches, or torches being "pushed" need a lot of oxygen. You aren't getting "quality" oxygen out of a concentrator - and if you need more than one to run your torch "properly", you prove my point.

Remember that at higher flow (LPM), the actual oxygen content can drop to as low as 92%, depending on the particular machine and how new it's sieve bed is. You have already lost at least 6% (tanked oxygen is about 98% pure), and you can see it in your torch flame. In an environment where we are trying to MAXIMIZE the oxygen flow to achieve complete combustion why oh why would you settle for less than optimal oxygen flow?

Using tanked oxygen, you will get 100% out of your torch, period.

I agree with you for the most part. But the 92% pure O2 being on the low quality side raised my brow.

I have had customers say their machine that they bought elsewhere is working great, but they send it to me for a checkup because they have had it for a few years.

While they said that it was working fine and were happy with it, the machine was only putting out 75% pure oxygen. They didnt know it, but it seemed to work great for them. We all know that purity is way too low for anybodys standards.

Does is depend on how you work, and/or how much you work, that would see the difference between 98% O2 from a tank, and 96% from a rebuilt concentrator, or even 92% out of one that has 20k hours on it since its last rebuild?

TIA

pam · #70 2006-05-31, 6:04am

Hi Justin, just thinking about it, I would bet that their concentrator worked perfectly when they got it, but over the years it slowly, slowly kept changing and they didn't notice the difference. My guess is they probably only work smaller beads and do not use the colors that have a problem with low oxy. So, your answer is yes, in a way, but I think it was a gradual reduction that they compensated for by the way they work. I can't imagine anything under 94% as being viable to the normal way people work soft glass.

BTW, I have heard recommendations of running certain concentrators at 3.5%

MikeAurelius · #71 2006-05-31, 6:05am

Quote:

Does is depend on how you work, and/or how much you work, that would see the difference between 98% O2 from a tank, and 96% from a rebuilt concentrator, or even 92% out of one that has 20k hours on it since its last rebuild?

Very definately, YES.

I work nothing but borosilicate, and I can tell the difference even between tanked oxygen at 98% and liquid oxygen at 100% purity.

I've been using liquid for the last 2 years, and have only switched back to tanks between liquid fills. Every time we switched to tanked O2, there was a noticable difference in the vibrance of the colors, especially those that are sensitive to flame chemistry. Even the striking colors such as AP, DAP, 3P, all react differently from tanked oxygen to liquid.

I'm not knocking concentrators/generators, they certainly have their place as noted, but I've found, by and large that when folks are having problems with color, even in soft glass, the most likely culprit is the flame chemistry, and most usually, not enough oxygen becuase they are using a concentrator.

Everyone needs to remember that the specifications that are put out by the torch manufacturers are based on 98% oxygen purity, tanked oxygen, NOT from a concentrator or generator.

Mr. Smiley · #72 2006-05-31, 6:29am

Mike, I have to disagree with you here... I can readily get tanked oxy... not liquid, but tanks. It is a pain and takes about 2-3 hours of my work time to go swap them out weekly. On top of that hassle, I spend $300 a month for the refills, not counting mileage and fuel for the car. I work boro as well and have seen no change in the colors I am able to get. I work all those flame chemistry sensitive colors you mentioned with outstanding results. Was it an adjustment, sure... but a switch I am very happy I made.

Mr. Smiley · #73 2006-05-31, 7:21am

I'm not saying liquid or tanked isn't the ideal situation for a glass blower. All the pressure and flow you want with perfect purity is a dream. I just live in the real world of having a home studio. The new units make it possible for me to do what soft glass workers have been doing a while. A complete rebuild on an M-20 is $150, so I'm not real worried about that maintenance expense if it needs to be done in the future. As long as it's not all the time.

MikeAurelius · #74 2006-05-31, 7:37am

Different strokes for different folks.

Justin L · #75 2006-05-31, 7:44am

That $150 "rebuild" has me wondering, too.

Mr. Smiley · #76 2006-05-31, 8:05am

Well, you are "boy wonder".

Justin L · #77 2006-05-31, 8:51am

kbinkster · #78 2006-05-31, 9:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin L

Not any of the medical concentrators or even the Industrial generators I have ever seen...what brands put out 3psi?

Im not flaming you or trying to start an argument, I seriously just want to know...another wrinkle for my brain

I know you're not flaming me.

I will have to go double check, it may have been 3 LPM that I was thinking about and not 3 psi. Someone had a question about a concentrator I had never heard of and when I googled it, I found one on eBay. Something about that "3" stuck in my mind.

collectiblesbyrose · #79 2006-05-31, 2:16pm

OK....worked at 3.5 lpm today. Played with knobs, made the most well-formed beads I've ever made! Small flame, worked slow. The flame would flame high sometimes. When I went outside to turn off the propane found that the thing that turns to apply the pressure was at 0 pressure. Sigh...always something. Wondering if the yard guy thought he was helping.

Mr. Smiley · #80 2006-05-31, 3:16pm

Rose, I'm not surprised it ran well for you at very low pressure. When I tested the torch, I kept bumping down the regulator until in was just a hair above the peg... it was basically reading zero pounds of pressure. The torch was still singing away. I was jaw dropping shocked at what this new torch can do... I hope you get it all worked out and set right tomorrow. Feel free to email or PM me as well.

kbinkster · #81 2006-05-31, 5:45pm

When you set your propane regulator, set it higher than you need it, then go back in and turn on your torch, and with the torch running, go back to the regulator and adjust it to the setting you want. Otherwise, if you just set the regulator and then start torching (without going back to adjust it), the pressure will drop below what you set it to once you turn on the torch.

collectiblesbyrose · #82 2006-05-31, 7:28pm

Oh....didn't know that. Thanks!!!

kbinkster · #83 2006-05-31, 9:56pm

You're welcome! I hope that lets the yard guy off the hook.

Mr. Smiley · #84 2006-06-01, 6:36am

I so wish somebody else would have corrected this. I waited until this morning to do it, just hoping. I am not trying to get back into it with you Kimberly, I swear... but <------ there's always a but isn't there.

The regulator pressure should not drop below what you set it at, especially with one small torch on the line. The regulator is just that, it regulates the line pressure to what you set it at. A cheap regulator may not hold a correct line pressure and a good one may even drop in a class or large consumption situation. The regulator is undersized in this situation and just can't keep up. I set my reg at 5 and it stays at 5. If I set it at 3, it stays at 3... no matter what I do on the torch. That's it's job, to regulate line pressure.

I hope this helps and doesn't cause

.

MikeAurelius · #85 2006-06-01, 7:02am

Sorry Brent, but that has not been my experience, and I use very expensive regulators.

Assuming the line has been properly purged and has zero pressure, and all valves and torches are off, if you open the tank valve and raise the pressure of the regulator to say 5, then go light your torch, the set pressure will drop slightly - usually one or two PSI. This is because the line was pressurized to a constant no-flow pressure, and then once the gas actually begins to flow, the regulated pressure drops slightly.

The same thing happens in reverse when you turn off the torches. The pressure on the valve actually increases by one or two PSI.

This is normal and every single stage regulator I have seen will do this.

Mr. Smiley · #86 2006-06-01, 7:09am

I guess I've got some kick arse regs then.

Mine don't move a bit... just a constant flow of the exact pressure I set.

barb · #87 2006-06-01, 7:27am

Rose,

I have also found that because I torch at night when I go outside to turn off my gas [in the dark] or if I move the tank slightly when I am cleaning off the patio that sometimes I'll move the regulator rod without realizing it. I always recheck my gas regulator when I first light the torch just to make sure it's at the right pressure.

Barb

kbinkster · #88 2006-06-01, 7:37am

Assuming that you purge your lines, etc., if you set your regs, look at the number, then go torch, then turn off your torch and go back to the regs, and look at the number, it will appear unchanged because the pressure drops while the torch is on and rises back up when the torch is turned off.

If you did not purge your line, the number will not change, as the line was already pressurized when you turned on the tank.

The length of your lines will affect how much of a drop you will see (the longer your lines, the more drop you will see. the shorter the lines, the smaller the drop). The size of the torch will affect how much of a drop you will see -the bigger the torch, the more line pressure is relieved, the bigger the drop you will see.

Keep in mind that lower pressures will cause many of the inexpensive regulators commonly used by lampworkers to fluctuate, and running very low pressures can shorten their lives.

Here is a good resource:
http://www.arrowsprings.com/html/con...egulators.html

Mr. Smiley · #89 2006-06-01, 7:57am

I can see my regs while I'm torching... it doesn't move. And no, my tanks are NOT inside.

collectiblesbyrose · #90 2006-06-01, 8:33am

I bought my regulators from Arrow Springs so they are probably ok and not the cheap kind. The yard guy is off the hook, I'm just glad he shows up and most of the time remembers to lock the gate so the dogs don't escape. I just feel a little like I just started over because the torch is new and the concentrator is new (to me). At least when I bought the HH then the Mid Range then the Minor......I'd at worked on them a little during lessons at the local glass shop and knew what the flame was supposed to look like. Now I'm trying to get used to an all blue flame and worried it isn't getting enough oxygen.