Integra 10 for my Betta torch

anne225 · #1 2006-04-26, 1:57pm

I have just purchased my first torch and I am now looking at my next purchase. I am looking at the Integra 10 because I see it floating around at a pretty good price.. includes an oxy monitor. Don't know if I need that part but overall, what is the opinion out there? The Bethlehem needs a minimum 3.0 psi ( for a flame .75 x 10 inches long) up to 20psi for 2.5x16" long. But maybe I don't need to spend that much to get great results from this torch.
(By good price I mean about $150 lower than normal..but this guy still is not being given away...about $1340 and includes shipping)
Any other good suggestions for units that work as well? I just want to work soft glass and have fun...make a few beads...

Anne

Renee · #2 2006-04-26, 4:11pm

Hi Anne! By no means am I an expert, but I wanted to comment on you post. I have a Phantom torch and two Integra 10's, and the combination is wonderful! I work both hard and soft glass, thus the larger torch and the two oxy con's. I can tell you that my Integras are fabulous, and while they have a means to measure the oxy output, I believe that most, if not all oxy cons do as well.

If you're going to working with soft glass only, then I would be looking for a concentrator that would accommodate your torch's requirements. However, if you think that sometime in the future you might upgrade your torch (maybe to do boro), you may want to keep this in mind when purchasing your concentrator now.

Good luck, and happy torching!

kbinkster · #3 2006-04-26, 4:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by anne225

I have just purchased my first torch and I am now looking at my next purchase. I am looking at the Integra 10 because I see it floating around at a pretty good price.. includes an oxy monitor. Don't know if I need that part but overall, what is the opinion out there? The Bethlehem needs a minimum 3.0 psi ( for a flame .75 x 10 inches long) up to 20psi for 2.5x16" long. But maybe I don't need to spend that much to get great results from this torch.
(By good price I mean about $150 lower than normal..but this guy still is not being given away...about $1340 and includes shipping)
Any other good suggestions for units that work as well? I just want to work soft glass and have fun...make a few beads...

Anne

Who told you this about the flame sizes?

Your title reads "Integra 10 for my Betta torch." So, I take it that you are talking about a Betta when you say "the Bethlehem."

About the Integra 10, that sounds like a good price. I have one, and I love it. It's a high quality machine. It runs about 10 lpm at 9 psi. You could get the same results by connecting two 5 lpm machines if they each put out 9 psi. Running one machine instead of two does have advantages, though, like power supply considerations and noise.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people chime in on this. Pretty much all of the small torches out there can run on low pressure concentrators and household natural gas. There should be lots of good opinions about what oxygen concentrators work well.

Justin L · #4 2006-04-26, 5:06pm

I stay by my advice of using a Devilbiss Concentrator. 5LPM, 8-9 PSI. Nice and quiet, very reliable (20,000-25,000 hours of service before it needs a major overhaul) and more affordable to fix!

anne225 · #5 2006-04-26, 7:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbinkster

Who told you this about the flame sizes?

Your title reads "Integra 10 for my Betta torch." So, I take it that you are talking about a Betta when you say "the Bethlehem."

About the Integra 10, that sounds like a good price. I have one, and I love it. It's a high quality machine. It runs about 10 lpm at 9 psi. You could get the same results by connecting two 5 lpm machines if they each put out 9 psi. Running one machine instead of two does have advantages, though, like power supply considerations and noise.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people chime in on this. Pretty much all of the small torches out there can run on low pressure concentrators and household natural gas. There should be lots of good opinions about what oxygen concentrators work well.

About the flame size...it is included in the specs on the Bethlehem web site and I also spoke with a Bethlehem torch rep.Did I get this wrong? I am so tired of trying to evaluate info and make sure that I get what I need that all the info is starting to flow together

kbinkster · #6 2006-04-26, 10:36pm

Well... I looked at the web site and that is what it says. However, I believe that there are some errors, or something.

The shoulder of the flame, what is commonly measured when determining the flame width, is dependant on the size of the face. A rough rule of thumb is that the shoulder can get up to twice the width of the diameter of the face. The stated face diameter of the Betta is 5/8". This would give a possible maximum shoulder width of 1.25", provided the tube configuration was just right. Given the both the tube configuration shown on the web site and the tube configuration of the Betta that I saw in person, recently (they are different), it would be a stretch to get an inch wide shoulder out of it. To put their 2.5" width claim into the proper perspective: a GTT Delta has about a 2.25" shoulder width. I would believe that the Betta gets a 2.5 cm shoulder width, but not a 2.5" shoulder width.

Now, it is entirely possible that the width they are measuring is the tail of the flame. The tail is the very far end where the flame feathers out. There is no real heat out there, just enough to maybe keep something warm. So claiming that as a normal working flame width is very misleading

The web site also claims that the manifold is 5" in diameter and the base is 6". You can look in the pictures, compare the two parts, and judge for yourself. 5 cm, perhaps, but not 5". And, for those who don't know, the manifold is the part that has the valve knobs sticking out of it.

I saw a Betta when I went glass shopping, recently. I would say that the flame shoulder was between 1/2" to 3/4", and it was being run on a 10 psi oxygen concentrator and Natural Gas at 6 psi (G-Tec booster). Natural Gas will affect the temperature of the flame, but not really the width.

Basically, it was no different than a Piranha or a Minor burner (other than the cooling system it uses that was patented by someone else) - just $200 or so more expensive.

Furthermore, they include performance specs at 20 psi. Well, any pressure over 10 psi exceeds the manufacturer's recommendation.
http://www.bethlehemburners.com/Betta.pdf

"DO NOT EXCEED 10 lbs. pressure on any feed. Excess pressure may cause gas or oxygen to leak through the valves and increase the chance of leakage through the hose connections."

Now, why would anyone give performance specs on pressure that they themselves say is too dangerous for their torch (and, yes, leaking valves and hose connections are dangerous)?

BTW, read the part where they say not to run the Betta at low oxygen pressures. They design a torch to be run on low pressures, but turn around and tell you not to run it at low pressures... O.K.

I'm sure that the Betta is a fine torch. I'm sure you will make lovely beads with it and have a lot of fun. I just believe (and this is my personal opinion) it is being hyped up to be much more than it really is. As I stated above, I have seen one in action. I have run several toches, myself, and have seen many other torches run, as well. So, I have something to compare it to.

The best thing to ever do when buying any torch is to "try before you buy," if at all possible. That way, you will know exactly what you are getting. Unfortunately, I know that there are many people who cannot do this. That's why we, as lampworkers, depend on honest specs and measurements from both manufacturers and actual users with no vested interest.

Kalera · #7 2006-04-26, 11:39pm

My suggestion for the Betta would be to get two cheap used concentrators on ebay - I've gotten FIVE so far, each for under $200, all in perfect working order - and use a simple plastic "T" connector, plus clear acrylic tubing from a hardware store, widest diameter that fits, and run it off those. I was getting killer performance from my Barracuda with that setup.

Jude Rose · #8 2006-04-27, 10:43am

I already had an Integra 10 for my Minor and just upgraded to the Cudda. They are very very well matched. Solid, constant flow. No 'breathing' that sometimes happens in used or less powerful concentrators. I've yet to have an issue with the Integra and I travel with it and even abuse it somewhat. (it told me it likes it)

I give it an A. Go for it!

firelady · #9 2006-04-28, 10:08am

I want to thank those of you who are reading, studying, and analyzing our website for your comments. And I want to especially thank those who are actually relatives of GTT for being so well versed on Bethlehem torch specs. Who would've thought?! Probably I should hire you for proofreading our stuff! (I'm almost serious!) And had Bethlehem's home office consulted me, their sales manager, before posting this stuff on the website, I would have had a machete in their direction for cut and paste as well. So YES, you are correct, there were a number of inaccuracies, which have been corrected, or at least sent to the webmaster to correct them. So, for those of you who are really tech/spec oriented, and want the RIGHT info, the Betta fuel pressures are: (the envelope please) Gas: .2 - 5 psi, and Oxygen, 4-20 psi, and "do not exceed 25 lbs. on any feed." The one thing I still disagree with is, the 2.5" width flame. I'd say it's more like 1/2" - 3/4", for real working purposes. I'll try to get them to change that.
However, in my tests, all I can say is....that torch rocks. At less than 1 psi gas and 5 of oxygen, it's a smooth hot flame that is virtually silent. I am so in love with this flame. I was initially sorry when they discontinued the Piranha, but the Betta outshines it in many respects. Anyway, back to your discussion of concentrators and generators.....

Marcie

kbinkster · #10 2006-04-28, 1:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by firelady

I want to thank those of you who are reading, studying, and analyzing our website for your comments. And I want to especially thank those who are actually relatives of GTT for being so well versed on Bethlehem torch specs. Who would've thought?! Probably I should hire you for proofreading our stuff! (I'm almost serious!)

Well, Marcie, I guess you are directing this at me, since I am the only relative of GTT who posted on this thread. I don't see the need for the sarcasm, though.

I looked at the Bethlehem Betta page after Anne said that the flame width measurement of 2.5" was posted there (in addition to a Bethlehem representative telling her this measurement). It was such an outlandish claim, I was compelled to look. I am curious, though, which representative told Anne that the flame could reach a 2.5" width on 20 psi. As Bethlehem's Sales Manager, I would think that you would be interested to know this, as well. I wonder how many people bought the Betta believing that they could get such a wide flame (especially for "making long beads and working boro").

As far as being well-versed on Bethlehem torch specs, what do you mean?

The rough rule of thumb about the flame width being proportional to the face diameter applies to all the torches out there, not just Bethlehem torches.

The example of the exaggerated manifold measurement was simply given to show that there were additional errors on the page regarding measurements - possibly confusing metric for English.

Quoting recommended pressures and commenting on those falls more under good reading comprehension and common sense.

With the possible exception of the flame width rule of thumb (some people know this, some do not) the information I discussed is the very same made available all customers and potential customers. There's no need to be well-versed in anything, except maybe English.

Quote:

Originally Posted by firelady

And had Bethlehem's home office consulted me, their sales manager, before posting this stuff on the website, I would have had a machete in their direction for cut and paste as well. So YES, you are correct, there were a number of inaccuracies, which have been corrected, or at least sent to the webmaster to correct them. So, for those of you who are really tech/spec oriented, and want the RIGHT info, the Betta fuel pressures are: (the envelope please) Gas: .2 - 5 psi, and Oxygen, 4-20 psi, and "do not exceed 25 lbs. on any feed." The one thing I still disagree with is, the 2.5" width flame. I'd say it's more like 1/2" - 3/4", for real working purposes. I'll try to get them to change that.

Apparently, proofreading the web page would not have been enough to have prevented Anne's misunderstanding of the Betta's flame width. As was mentioned earlier, a Bethlehem representative told her that the Betta could acheive a flame width of 2.5". Why would anyone question something they see on a web page when a representative of that company tells them the same thing?

I daresay that everyone should like to know the right information regarding what they can expect from a torch, not just the technically inclined people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by firelady

However, in my tests, all I can say is....that torch rocks. At less than 1 psi gas and 5 of oxygen, it's a smooth hot flame that is virtually silent. I am so in love with this flame. I was initially sorry when they discontinued the Piranha, but the Betta outshines it in many respects. Anyway, back to your discussion of concentrators and generators.....

Marcie

Well, I the one I saw running had six jets. It looked like a Piranha flame in a different wrapper - not that there's anything wrong with the Piranha flame. Which begs the question, "Why would they discontinue the Piranha, anyway?" The web page shows a diagram with five jets for the Betta, but the specs say that it has six jets. Which is it? Why does the diagram not match the specs? Did they change the number of jets on the Betta? Is there another version out there that runs better than the one I saw? Is that the version that outshines the Piranha?

At any rate, being able to run on low pressures is nothing unique to the Betta. Minor burners, Piranhas, Bobcats, and Mini CCs can all run on those same low pressures for about $200 less. Seriously. It has been discussed all over the place. And as far as running quietly, that's not unique, either. GTTs have been doing that for years. The Bobcat can run smoothly and quietly on low pressures. But, Bethlehem already knew that, didn't they?

When GTT set out to build torches, at least they came out with their own original design. They did not reverse engineer the competitions' torches and copy them. I've held my tongue for quite a while about how the Betta sure has taken on the likeness of the GTT Bobcat (taper and barrel, no fins), possibly infringing on GTT's patented cooling system (like Wale did with their Firebird). That cooling system is what allows a torch to look that way.

But I digress.

Claiming that the Betta is better than the torches already out there on the market, today, is a stretch, in my personal opinion after seeing one in action. When one of your representatives claims that "It’s finally possible to work all types of glass on a concentrator and natural gas," I really have to wonder - are you leading people to believe that the other torches out there cannot work the same types of glass as the Betta? "Finally possible"? What does that mean? It means that it was something that was not possible previously, doesn't it? Well, those other torches I mentioned above all predate the Betta.

And that part about "all types of glass... ," does it work quartz on NG and a concentrator, too? Now, if the Betta could work quartz while running on .2 psi NG and 5 psi oxygen, I will stand amazed and proclaim it to be a true wonder of modern technology.

Mr. Smiley · #11 2006-04-28, 1:34pm

Kimberly, stop being a heel. At least Bethlehem posts specs. A mistake was made and has been corrected. No biggie. I still say your time would be much better spent learning HTML and updating GTT's site with some specs and technical info. That way your energy would be put to good use in the glass industry. I have half a mind to delete a lot of your nonsense, but then you would cry foul.

I'd have to say with my testing of the Betta, that it would work quartz at those setting. It's friggin amazing. GTT's are amazing too, but your attitude makes it hard for me to work on one. Seriously. I've had several people tell me they would never buy a GTT because of your attitude on the boards. You are doing GTT more harm than good. Get over it. There are good points to every torch and Beth makes an amazing line up.

Feel free to quote the hell out of this post in your normal combative fashion. It's entertaining.

Mr. Smiley · #12 2006-04-28, 1:35pm

Oh and just toadd, it's not the ability to run on low pressures that makes the Betta special... it's the flame you get at those low pressures. It ROCKS!

anne225 · #13 2006-04-28, 1:52pm

Wow, you guys are really something. Let me say at first, this is Anne, the lady who requested information on the oxy conc. I would like to thank anybody who responded because I am new at this and I would respect feedback on what people know from their own use.
Secondly, I did not get any information from anyone person ,I got my information from the web page of Bethlehem. My work background tells me that all types of errors are possible when we transmit information. If the Web page had typo's and the errors had not been caught then it only makes good sense that when pointed out they will be changed. So in one respect, it is nice that it was pointed out . We should all appreciate corrections. But this IN YOUR FACE stuff really is over board. My observation of this forum is sometimes I think about 10 people run it and the rest hide for fear of a tongue-lashing. I feel like I am observing some in-office water -cooler gossip.
So lighten up.
That being said......gotta go. MY TORCH WAS JUST DELIVERED!!

Anne

Mr. Smiley · #14 2006-04-28, 1:56pm

I agree Anne and I am sorry for my post if it seemed short. This has been going on for a while. One torch company attacks another. It's silly company politics. I almost didn't respond, but I'm really really tired of it all. I could have been nicer, but she really doesn't respond to nice from past experience. She keeps attacking. I'm not gonna sugar coat anything when it comes to dealing with this on this board. Be nice or stay out of a competing torch thread.

kbinkster · #15 2006-04-28, 1:59pm

Quote:

Feel free to quote the hell out of this post in your normal combative fashion. It's entertaining.

When I quote a post and respond, it is not meant to be combative. It is done that way to organize thoughts and to respond thoroughly and thoughtfully. I make an effort to keep things in their proper context.

And, Anne, I certainly never intended for anything I posted to be "in your face." It certainly was not written that way.

Speaking of misunderstanding what people write, I must have misunderstood you when you said, "About the flame size...it is included in the specs on the Bethlehem web site and I also spoke with a Bethlehem torch rep.." I took that to mean that you got your information from both sources. There is quite a difference in a few simple errors on a web page and errors on a web page coupled with the same errors being repeated by a company representative.

Mr. Smiley · #16 2006-04-28, 2:06pm

Or take them out of context.

What ever Kimberly...

jokersdesign · #17 2006-04-28, 2:15pm

OH Snap!!!

All I can say is my GTT rages so much more then a Beth.

Mr. Smiley · #18 2006-04-28, 2:32pm

You so funny.

GTT rocks for BORO!

jokersdesign · #19 2006-04-29, 5:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by firelady

I was initially sorry when they discontinued the Piranha, but the Betta outshines it in many respects. Marcie

Why would Bethlehem discontinue the Piranha and in what respects does the Betta outshine the Piranha?

Are they going to upgrade all their other torches to include the Betta as the center fire instead of the Piranha as the center fire?

I think they should have kept the Piranha. The Piranha maybe outshined by the Betta, but many people will be happy with torches like the Minor or Piranha, especially those just starting out or upgrading from a hot head torch.

I know many cases where a person wanted to buy a new torch or upgrade their torch and wanted a GTT Lynx but the price tag of a Lynx is just to high for many people to consider it so they settled for a GTT bobcat and are perfectly happy with the torch even though the GTT Lynx outshines the GTT Bobcat in many respects.

If Bethlehem is going to discontinue a torch they should discontinue the PM2D-WC. They torch sucks butt and is so outshined by the Bethlehem Great White.

Mr. Smiley · #20 2006-04-29, 6:32pm

I am a fan of Beths for soft glass and boro cross over. I agree whole heartedly that discontinuing the Piranha was a mistake. Beth needs an entry level torch and has opened a gap in their product line... I can only hope that it will be filled soon. I have a sneaky feeling they are working on another design to get back down @ $200. I can hope and pray they do, because you are right... not everybody has $400 to spend coming from a Hot Head.

pam · #21 2006-04-29, 7:10pm

I tried the new Betta and liked it very much. It's a very hot torch! However, I was running it in a classroom situation where the pressures were set for 8 Minors running. The flame was too small for my own personal work, though it definitely was a nice torch.

But, once again, my allegiance goes to GTT, for my soft glass work. Fantastic torches, all of them.

Kimberly, thanks for taking the time to look at the Beth website and finding the errors, and thanks for the excellent advice you give on many types of torches and setups.

Marcie, (haven't heard from you for a while) thanks for responding on behalf of Bethlehem and letting us know the website will be corrected. Bethlehem was always my favorite torch until I just couldn't get a center flame the right size for my work.

Anne, with the correct information from both Kimberly and Marcie, I would think an Integra 10 or an Onyx Plus would work fine with your Betta. It is also possible that your torch may run just fine on one concentrator, or two. It really depends on the type of work you do now and where you may be going. If you are going to want to work in boro, my own personal opinion would be to go with the Integra 10 or the Onyx. You could also take a look at the OG 15, if you want to confuse yourself further.

Good luck,

Justin L · #22 2006-04-30, 5:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

A mistake was made and has been corrected.

How come I get reamed out if I make a little typo?

Mr. Smiley · #23 2006-04-30, 8:45am

I get my ass chewed for having an opinion all the time, so it must be par for the course on forums.

Justin L · #24 2006-04-30, 4:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I get my ass chewed for having an opinion all the time, so it must be par for the course on forums.

Put your disclaimer back in your sig

Mr. Smiley · #25 2006-04-30, 5:21pm

Rose · #26 2006-04-30, 8:36pm

Anne, I run my Betta with one oxygen concentrator and it works fine. The flame is very hot. I make beads on the smaller end so it works just fine for me and is much hotter than my Minor was. If you want to make LARGE beads you will probably find the flame too small. JMHO

Rose

MelissaQ · #27 2006-05-01, 7:47pm

I've got a question....does the betta run hot using the oxy con's such as the devilbiss...I'm not sure what the other brands are, but the ones that you can buy reconditioned. I have a bobcat now and have talked with Paulette a little bit about oxy cons. I work primarily soft glass but make small boro every once in a while, approx 7x9, 8x10, that small. But I was told that with my Bobcat I probably wouldn't be happy with just one oxy con unless I purchased the Integra 10 or the Onyx. At least not for boro, even if it is small. But I don't really have the funds for one of those right now...I mean I could swing it but then I wouldn't be able to buy any more glass!

So I guess my question is would the betta run a lot hotter than my bobcat on one oxycon with a little less power such as the devilbiss and airsep's? Or at least hot enough to use one oxycon and still make small boro beads?

I'm sorry to be butting in on the post with my question but it sounds like you all have a lot of knowledge about the betta....Thanks in advance

kbinkster · #28 2006-05-01, 10:09pm

Well, based on my presonal observations, I would say no, the Betta would not run hotter than the Bobcat on one concentrator.

However, Brent said that based on his testing of the Betta, he believes that it can work quartz at .2 psi NG and 5 psi oxygen. Admittedly, the Bobcat cannot work quartz at those settings. Quartz melts at about 3650 F. What is the working temperature of Boro? Isn't it something 2400 F? I cannot recall it right now. I believe Effetre is somewhere around 1600-1700 F. I cannot remember that working temperature right now, either.

So, just based on Brent's claim that the Betta can work quartz at those low settings (0.2 psi Natural Gas and 5 psi oxygen), it would have to be hotter than the Bobcat, thereby going against my personal observation that it ran just like a Piranha (which is not as hot as a Bobcat).

MelissaQ · #29 2006-05-02, 4:13am

Thanks, I love my Bobcat but I would like to purchase a concentrator because I'm sick of lugging the tanks back and forth. I just don't have room for more than one and don't really have $1500 to spend on one at the moment without making things really tight around here financially.....

Mr. Smiley · #30 2006-05-02, 4:21am

I've been on a Bobcat on one concentrator and I would not want to be working boro on it. Could it be done... sure. I've seen boro beads made on a hot head. It will melt it. I would however work boro beads on a Betta with that set up. Especially the small ones you are talking about. The flame on this Betta is pretty amazing from the testing I've done. I highly doubt anybody will be doing quartz work on it, so I don't know why that comes into play at all. I have a feeling Kimberly is just trying to set me up with that line of statements. If you want to test it, I'll sell you a Betta Kimberly.

It reminds me of the great torch company war a few years back. I wasn't involved then and I'm not going to get involved now. GTT, Bethlehem, Carlisle, knight and Nortel all have their place. They all have tasks they are better at or budgets they cater to. I'm so grateful for the diversity of tools we have available today. I hope the list grows and grows.