The Secret of Terra

[Hayley]

I agree with the Debs - read the post with the original title and didn't think it was a slam on Kim or other lampwork artists.

Especially compared to this thread from the other forum: "I am at my wit's end in trying to make double helix glass 'work.' I am tired of seeing only ONE person in the WORLD who can work these double helix glass - consistently - which is Kim Neely. Yes, some of you have approached the front steps of this glass, but you know in your heart you can't do what Kim does." Now THAT annoyed me . . . and the person started that thread was treated better than BK.

[Kalera]

She only posted it ONCE though... This exact thread was started TWICE, same wording and everything, copy & paste.

The thing that gets me is, how would most people feel if the thread was headed with THEIR name? Implying that you were maliciously keeping secrets deliberately to keep other lampworkers in the dark... Ouch.

[andreajane]

And the first time it was posted, I don't remember anyone getting annoyed. I thought it was a good discussion, actually.


Andrea

[Kevan]

I was annoyed both times.

I was annoyed with the idea that DH is intentionally keeping how to work this glass a secret and at the idea that they should provide instructions for everyone and their particular torch and kiln.

I'm also annoyed that anyone thinks they are entitled to have the "touch" needed to work some glass handed to them.

[andreajane]

Originally Posted by Kevan

I was annoyed both times.

I was annoyed with the idea that DH is intentionally keeping how to work this glass a secret and at the idea that they should provide instructions for everyone and their particular torch and kiln.

I'm also annoyed that anyone thinks they are entitled to have the "touch" needed to work some glass handed to them.

Oops...I was wrong then


Andrea

[Kevan]

Originally Posted by andreajane

Oops...I was wrong then


Andrea

There you go! lol

I find it annoying that people think they should be able to do anything someone else can do and that it's the materials fault that they can't.

Do you know how long it took me to get good results with watercolors?

[andreajane]

I think it's an unreasonable expectation, but it doesn't annoy me.


Andrea

[Just Nancy]

I still think it is reasonable to get more info than we tend to get with products. I mean a pound of glass costs a lot more than a tube of oils (for example). More than the cost it acts much differently from brand to brand.

I didn't take offense at either post. I didn't see the original title. I cringe at the reaction here. I think others have asked the wrong question and met a similar response. I think that is a shame. I also think getting a negative response from the masses is not unique to LE.

I wonder how many of the posters here are fans of Kim's? or friends? or dislike the OP? or don't know the OP but know Kim? etc. This is a pretty small community and I think people react differently when one of the pillars is 'attacked' or questioned more than in other communities. For example Corina. Look at the emotional responses that name has generated over the years. I guess that is because we all have that part of our brain that covers melting glass. Any time names are named people get defensive others get hurt and the cycle continues.

[Deb Hopeful Journeys]

Thanks Nancy, this has been my point all along!!!

Originally Posted by Just Nancy

I still think it is reasonable to get more info than we tend to get with products. I mean a pound of glass costs a lot more than a tube of oils (for example). More than the cost it acts much differently from brand to brand.

I didn't take offense at either post. I didn't see the original title. I cringe at the reaction here. I think others have asked the wrong question and met a similar response. I think that is a shame. I also think getting a negative response from the masses is not unique to LE.

I wonder how many of the posters here are fans of Kim's? or friends? or dislike the OP? or don't know the OP but know Kim? etc. This is a pretty small community and I think people react differently when one of the pillars is 'attacked' or questioned more than in other communities. For example Corina. Look at the emotional responses that name has generated over the years. I guess that is because we all have that part of our brain that covers melting glass. Any time names are named people get defensive others get hurt and the cycle continues.

[bgurden]

as a new lurker here i have just one comment do y'all always eat your young!
give the girl a break. she is frustrated beyond belief with the glass and after the pummeling she took here its doubtful that she ever go back.

i have taken classes from many artists. you and i both know that its not uncommon that artists will not reveal their secrets. if kim wanted to she would teach. many do. however i gotta say if i was pulling in 2000 dollars on ebay i would probably just keep making the beads.

keep workin the glass and then give kim a run for her money! in the great us of a competition is a great thing! then go out and teach it for the rest of us poor suckers who cannot devine the great mysteries of the glass. even better write a book!

personally, i sleep with a rod of terra under my pillow. it helped in junior high when i wanted to obtain the mysteries of my textbooks through osmosis!

[Kevan]

Originally Posted by bgurden

personally, i sleep with a rod of terra under my pillow. it helped in junior high when i wanted to obtain the mysteries of my textbooks through osmosis!

Now there is a new tip I haven't tried yet.

[Kevan]

Originally Posted by andreajane

I think it's an unreasonable expectation, but it doesn't annoy me.


Andrea

I must be more easily annoyed than you. I just find it annoying that people think artistic ability should be their birthright. Pay your dues.

People died to learn how to make photographs.

[Holly]

Originally Posted by Kalera

The thing that gets me is, how would most people feel if the thread was headed with THEIR name? Implying that you were maliciously keeping secrets deliberately to keep other lampworkers in the dark... Ouch.

This is what I was thinking. Personally, I would find it hurtful and invasive.

[Holly]

Originally Posted by Just Nancy

I still think it is reasonable to get more info than we tend to get with products. I mean a pound of glass costs a lot more than a tube of oils (for example). More than the cost it acts much differently from brand to brand.

Not to nitpick, but certain colors of certain brands of oil paint can approach $100 for a 37ml tube. And oil paints of can be vastly different from brand to brand.
I still think the best way to understand your materials is to experiment. If you do, you may come up with something extraordinary and different from what is "expected".

[Kevan]

There can be a great difference to an atrist as to what some paint does that other paint doesn't do. Or brushes. Do you have any idea what sable brushes can cost?

[Holly]

Originally Posted by Kevan

Do you have any idea what sable brushes can cost?

I do!!! Windsor Newton Series 7 size 5...$60. And I wear them out quickly.

[andreajane]

Originally Posted by Just Nancy

I still think it is reasonable to get more info than we tend to get with products. I mean a pound of glass costs a lot more than a tube of oils (for example). More than the cost it acts much differently from brand to brand.

I didn't take offense at either post. I didn't see the original title. I cringe at the reaction here. I think others have asked the wrong question and met a similar response. I think that is a shame. I also think getting a negative response from the masses is not unique to LE.

I wonder how many of the posters here are fans of Kim's? or friends? or dislike the OP? or don't know the OP but know Kim? etc. This is a pretty small community and I think people react differently when one of the pillars is 'attacked' or questioned more than in other communities. For example Corina. Look at the emotional responses that name has generated over the years. I guess that is because we all have that part of our brain that covers melting glass. Any time names are named people get defensive others get hurt and the cycle continues.

Alternatively, you can rest assured that if anyone publicly chastises you for withholding glass information which you acquired through hard work and which no one else has any legitimate claim to, there are LE members who will speak up about it. I am one of them.


Andrea

[Just Nancy]

I think brushes are different because you reuse them. Also I doubt people step up to $100 oils on a whim or without having some idea how to use it. Maybe that is the problem here. I think some products don't have enough information. I also think there are a lot of people who pay too much attention to just a name when forming respect for someone, or deciding who they will defend. I think some of these same people make fantastic beads and deserve respect, but I can see their name coming up in the question. I didn't find the question(s) wrong. I didn't see them as an attack. I did question what motivated it and the OP hasn't responded.

Andrea, it is nice to know some people would defend a no body, if they discovered something that 'no one else has any legitimate claim to'. I guess I question when you can make that assumption. As I read the sentence you imply that she has actual information that no one else has a right to. I see it that she has gotten lucky and posted some fabulous beads and made the glass sing. (Not that she has actual prooven information to make this glass work in every case.) She doesn't owe anyone information but that she has to know the subject will come up. People talk and wonder. The real question seems to go back to the supplier of the glass. If they have more suggestions on how to make their product work or not. If not, then she wins the jackpot. If so, then they should include them in their faqs for those looking. They shouldn't withhold what they know. The artists can expect questions, but don't have to answer.

I personally still didn't love the link I saw when this first came up. Different strokes for different folks. I in no way think this situation is unique to this color or just this artist. Unless I suppose she keeps making all their glass sing and many have trouble with it. Then it would begin to look like she either buys tons of their glass, has special information, or just has the midas touch.

[chrissij]

Originally Posted by Kevan

There can be a great difference to an atrist as to what some paint does that other paint doesn't do. Or brushes. Do you have any idea what sable brushes can cost?

or the Sumi brushes my hubby uses for his pottery!! This isn't where he got them, but you get the idea:

http://www.dickblick.com/zz054/22/

He's also got a LARGE Sumi brush; the cost for that one topped $300!! I asked him, "Why exactly do you HAVE TO HAVE that one!?!?!??!"

While it's true that brushes are reusable, they are only reusable "for a time", and the chemicals in some of the glazes can wreak havoc on them in an astonishingly short amount of time. That REALLY expensive one of his better last a REALLY long time!!

[HONEYBUNNY72_99]

This glass is going to work differently for every single person.I have the best luck if I use it at the end of my session and I have found that it works best if I don't fuss with it much.I also have better luck using it as a decoration rather than a base.
What I wanna know is does Kim make all those beads in one session or over several sessions?I would be bored to tears doing that many similar ones!Kim's beads were some of the first ones I found on Ebay when I started about 5-6 years ago.I have always been amazed by them.I am certain she has worked extremely hard to get where she is.Get the glass out and PPP may seem like a simple answer but maybe the answer to Terra really is that simple.

[pam]

You know, I commented on this thread early on, not having known it was reposted from the bathroom - not that that makes much difference in my response. I think people are not realizing that working with glass is as much a science as it is an art. If you are not willing to work and sacrifice then stay with the WYSIWYG colors. Those are relatively easy and don't require a lot of experimentation - at least not near as much as some of the silver colors.

I don't use the 104 colors, so the DH and Terra glass mean nothing to me, however after reading Kim's very good description of how she works with Terra on her website it seems very close to how you work the exotic colors in boro. Heat it to burn off the haze, then cool it and reintroduce it into the flame at different temps and times and you get different colors. So, if you want to learn to work these silver colors possibly taking a class with someone who is expert at the boro exotics would be helpful.

If you are not willing to figure it out on your own, and won't take a class, then don't work with these glasses. Every torch and every torch setup has its own environment that affects the glass you work with. A glass manufacturer or another artist can give you their directions but they will mean almost nothing until you put in the time with your setup to see what works for you. Asking someone specifically how they get a certain reaction is not going to help you get the same reaction, only time and experimentation and wasted glass is going to give you the answers you want.

[granny]

I have followed this thread and although I don't know squat about making beads(don't have a torch and am still taking classes trying to learn) I would like to add my two cents this way
My Mother made the absolute best to-die-for bread pudding
I got her recipe, followed step by step and guess what? it was okay but not like hers!
I think the same thing applies here
Someone could give you step-by-step instructions for many different things but what you get will probably be something a little bit different...you have to "make your own recipe", and with practice you "might" get it!

granny

[barbarajoy]

Ok, okokok. I'm so thankful for the latest tip I found. Don't rightly remember which thread it was in, very confused right now. But thank you to the person who mentioned changing the housing and annealing temps to 930 and 940. I could have worked this glass for a year before figuring that one out. There were no instructions with my glass so I had no idea.

Thank you thank you thank you, everyone, all the tips are great!

~Barb

[FlamingFrog]

Thanks for the tip Barb!

Does anybody know if you can anneal 104 coe at 940? I am wondering if I need to anneal it separately from my terra or if I can anneal them at the same time.

Lonni

[pam]

You can anneal them all at 940 or 930 or whatever temp above the strain point of the glass. When annealing at lower temps, you will need to use a longer hold time and a slower ramp down.

[FlamingFrog]

Thanks Pam!

[Hothead Beads]

Seems to me that a lot of the DH glass produces inconsistent results, as do some others. How many times have you sat down and made 20 beads all the same way and later, after annealing, there are a couple that don't look the same? I imagine KN probably made lots of beads with terra and only put the best, brightest results up for auction. I also bet she took a few days to make ALL those beautiful beads!

[Rhapsody Fire Beads]

Thanks Pam! I will give it another go with your suggestions!

[andreajane]

Originally Posted by Just Nancy

...Andrea, it is nice to know some people would defend a no body, if they discovered something that 'no one else has any legitimate claim to'. I guess I question when you can make that assumption. As I read the sentence you imply that she has actual information that no one else has a right to. I see it that she has gotten lucky and posted some fabulous beads and made the glass sing. (Not that she has actual prooven information to make this glass work in every case.) She doesn't owe anyone information but that she has to know the subject will come up. People talk and wonder. The real question seems to go back to the supplier of the glass. If they have more suggestions on how to make their product work or not. If not, then she wins the jackpot. If so, then they should include them in their faqs for those looking. They shouldn't withhold what they know. The artists can expect questions, but don't have to answer...

Don't call yourself a nobody! Kim is a lovely person who works hard and makes beautiful beads, but she isn't more of a "somebody" than you are and I'm sure she'd be the first to say so.

I don't speak up about this because I'm trying to protect Kim's feelings -- she's a grown-up, she can take care of herself. I really love that beadmakers share so freely what they know (which Kim has also done, btw), and I don't want that to get turned around into "we MUST share everything we know." That's all.

If you or anyone else puts in the time at the torch and you learn something new about your materials, no one else has the right to demand that you share it. That's what I meant. You may choose to share it. Other people may ask you questions about it. But if anyone gets mad because you taught yourself something no one else knows and you don't then spend valuable time teaching it to everyone else for free, that implies a sense of entitlement which is unreasonable.

And anyway, step by step instructions don't work the same way in every environment, even with bread pudding recipes, as Granny said


Andrea

[barbarajoy]

I can't take all the credit, Lonni, but you are welcome. Like I mentioned, it was listed in another thread ... somewhere. Sure hope it works for you.

~Barb

Originally Posted by barbie4364

Thanks for the tip Barb!

Does anybody know if you can anneal 104 coe at 940? I am wondering if I need to anneal it separately from my terra or if I can anneal them at the same time.

Lonni