Annealing different COE 104s in 1 bead

mnoelker · #1 2007-02-01, 7:21pm

I ordered some ASk and CIM glass a couple of days ago and have been reading different threads about compatibility issues within these and the other 104s. I'm watching with interest the thread Tink started on annealing schedules for all different types of glass we all use.

My question is, is it safe to mix glass from ASK, CIM and effetre for instance in one bead? How do you anneal a bead (or should you even try) that has colors whose COES are the same but call for different annealing temps? I was reading a thread about CIM and one of their colors should anneal at 1070. Is it possible then to use that glass with effetre? Then I wonder about the R4 and DH. Am I limited in how I can mix these not only by brand but by color?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Mary

CO_Phantom · #2 2007-02-01, 10:04pm

There is a thread called Messy Color-Leaky Pen and Gellys Pink that talks a little about that. I asked today if Kathy (from CiM) had come up with anything more definitive as when the thread was initially started she said she was going to conduct some tests on that very same issue. Earlier in the thread, she says if you garage at 1050 you should be okay for most of the CiM colors. I asked if that would be okay for the 1070 color or the 940 (?) color and no reply yet. Might be in Tucson....

In theory, you should be able to mix different glasses with the same COE and get away with it. I know of several instances where people have mixed brands with the same COE and have had no issues. Then there are others that do have issues. Maybe due to incompatibility of something in the glasses (there are tons of threads with info on that).

I've emailed both DH and R4 for technical info on their glasses to add to the chart that is in the annealing scheduels thread. And hopefully Kathy can chime in with more info on what we're supposed to do when we mix CiM colors. =) In the meantime, I would try Kathy's suggestion of 1050 and see how that works.

Hayley · #3 2007-02-01, 10:34pm

I think Moretti may start to slump at 1050 - especially the opaques such as reds. I wouldn't put any other Moretti based beads in the same kiln if you are going to try that out.

I haven't used too much CiM glass - perhaps I will make some test beads and anneal them in the same kiln as my Boro beads and see.

-----------

Here is a thread that Kathy posted regarding CiMs.

There is a thread on CiM and Kathy Seamands of Creation is Messy on Messy Color annealing points for the different CiM colors:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=44022

Our testing shows different annealing temperatures for each color:
Cirrus 970-1040
Peacock Green 1050
Gelly’s Sty 950
Ginger 1010
Celadon 1030
Butter Pecan 1050
Bordello 940
Leaky Pen 980

CO_Phantom · #4 2007-02-01, 10:51pm

That is the thread that I referenced when Kathy suggested annealing at 1050 for CiM.

I'm pretty sure Moretti white couldn't handle 1050 well...anyone know what the sagging temperature for Effetre/Moretti is?

mnoelker · #5 2007-02-02, 8:18am

I pm'd Kathy too so hopefully we'll get some info from her. In the meantime it'll be trial and hopefully not too much error!

Mary

CO_Phantom · #6 2007-02-02, 11:46am

I'm thinking trials might be in order here....make some beadies (little spacers) out of various Effetre colors and Effetre with various CiM colors (mainly worried about the one that's supposed to be annealed at 1070--Halong Bay) and soak them at 1050 to see what happens.

Sounds like a fantastic project for me to dig out the old fireworks torch and use up some of that MAPP gas. I might do that as soon as I get my CiM colors....should have shipped yesterday or today.

-Amy

CO_Phantom · #7 2007-02-02, 12:02pm

I just emailed Effetre to ask the sagging temperature. I have info from Arrow Springs that says the softening temperature of Effetre is 1050, so straight Effetre garaged at 1050 would maybe not fair so well. I'm wondering if being mixed with another glass (CiM) would possibly hinder the sagging at that temperature?

Of course, that is just a softening temperature. To start to sag, it might need a higher temperature than the softening temperature.

This could be interesting...

Kathy · #8 2007-02-02, 3:09pm

Sorry for the delay - I was on my way back from China.

I just posted a response in the other thread:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=983351#post983351

We have formulated Messy Color to be close to Effetre and Vetrofond by testing against Effetre regular clear, Effetre super clear, Vetrofond regular clear, and Vetrofond crystal clear.

We also test against Lauscha clear and are within compatibility range.

I cannot vouch for ASK.

I have some of Rocio's clear on back order so will do some compatibility testing when I receive it.

While all of these glasses have a 104 coe, there are many colors in their palettes, and each color has different working properties. I would suggest that you think of it not as "is ASK compatible with CiM?" but "is Passionate Pink compatible with Gelly's Sty?"

I have done a lot of testing on 104 coe glasses to see how Messy fits in, so if you are thinking about combining specific colors please PM me the color / manufacturer and I will let you know if I have any further info.

Kathy

mnoelker · #9 2007-02-02, 3:16pm

Thanks Kathy!!!!!!!!

Mary

CO_Phantom · #10 2007-02-03, 1:05am

Kathy--what we're looking for is the annealing for using CiM (such as Halong Bay, which is suggested at 1070) with, say, Effetre white, which should be annealed at a much lower temp. The question is: if the CiM recommended annealing temperature is higher than the Effetre annealing temperature, what temperature should we use? You'd said in one post a nice general 1050 should cover CiM, but we were wondering if that was even too high (as in, above the sag temperature) for Effetre glass and would cause the bead to deform at that high of a temp. I"ve emailed Effetre for the sag temperature of their glass. Maybe Tink has that info since I know she's got some extensive info as well. Right now what we're looking for is the sagging temp of Effetre because of the high annealing temperature for some of the CiM colors.

-Amy

FourTailsLampwork · #11 2007-02-03, 8:31pm

I was wondering this, too; I started an earlier thread but it got no answers. I'm really looking forward to this, because Bahia Blue and Moretti turquoise is one of my favorite combos, and I'd sure like to know they aren't setting up for problems.

AKDesigns · #12 2007-02-06, 1:17am

I keep my kiln at 1050 and have never had a bead sag or slump and I use all 104coe glass.

Kathy · #13 2007-02-06, 7:25pm

Sorry for the delay - I am subscribed to this thread but somehow not getting email notifications?

Amy, I think what you are asking is how Effetre and other non Messy 104 glasses will work in a higher annealing temperature environment. I'm sorry to say that I don't know.

I have tested Messy Color thoroughly but I have not tested Effetre in such depth. It seems some of their glass is stiffer, some of their glass runnier, so I imagine the temperatures would vary per color? I think we need to look to them as the manufacturer for more information on this topic.

Sorry for the lack of better info.

Kathy

CO_Phantom · #14 2007-02-06, 10:09pm

I emailed Effetre and got the same response--we don't know about the composition of the other glass so we can't answer the question.

So, does using the Effetre and CiM colors together change the chemical compositon and therefore the sagging temp? My direct question to Effetre was "what is the sag temperature of Effetre, particularly white?" I perhaps shouldn't have elaborated about the reason for the question--if a person were to make a bead with a glass of a higher annealing temp than Effetre is it safe to anneal at a higher temp to compensate for this? Their response was they didn't know the other glass, like yours is we don't really know the other glass.

So, I guess that means we experiment. I'm having a devil of a time finding the plain old sag temperature for Effetre white glass. No one seems to know. So when I get my kiln up and running I will stick a white rod in there and and keep track.

-Amy

NicNacBeads · #15 2007-02-06, 10:27pm

Amy,

You may want to call Arrow Springs and talk to Craig. He would know the answer to your Effetre White question for sure

AKDesigns · #16 2007-02-07, 4:52pm

Well I stuck a rod of Moretti white in my kiln at 1050 at oh yes...it sagged. I mostly use Moretti transparents for a base for my beads and then use opaques for stringer decorations so I don't have issues with a higher kiln temp.

mnoelker · #17 2007-02-07, 8:11pm

So, I played with my new ASK and CIM the other day and mixed both with moretti as well. No problems so far and I used sis and silver on some as well. I'll keep watching the beads and let you know if I have any problems.

Mary

CO_Phantom · #18 2007-02-07, 8:54pm

I figured the plain Effetre white would sag. Some days I swear holding it in your hand will sag it. I wonder, though, if it's mixed with another color if it changes the composition of the 2 glasses enough to change the sagging temperature?

Hayley · #19 2007-02-07, 11:58pm

If you plan on annealing at 1050 - make sure you put kiln wash or kiln paper on kiln brick in your kiln first and use a rack (I use kiln posts on their side) so your bead do not touch the bottom of your kiln. I mistakenly programmed my kiln controller and it was firing at over 1000 when I thought it was set at 950 - all my opaque beads had the texture of the fiber blanket they were resting on.

I did rod tests after the controller was calibrated correctly again - Moretti Dark Purple red slumped the most, second was Pea Green, then White, and no slumping for clear - and that was done at 950F for an hour.

I will be interested to find out how everyone's "tests" go and learn together!