Brand New Lampworker

moonofglass · #1 2009-04-15, 5:46pm

Today was my second day at the torch. And I'm finding I need some help. I really wish I could take a class, but there's nothing in my general area, unfortunately. I am a fuser, primarily, but I really want to learn how to do this hot glass thing!

So here are my two problems. I think they may be related, and I'm really hoping someone can help! Either my beads get stuck to the mandrel and will not come off after they've cooled, or they get "loose" while I'm firing them and slide around on the mandrel so that I can't work with them.

I'm using a Hothead torch, and hotline bead release, 1/8" mandrels, and I'm annealing for an hour in my fusing kiln (so it's rather large, if that matters) at 960F. Oh, and I'm using Moretti glass, but I've also tried playing with some Bullseye (not in the same bead, so it's not a compatibility problem, I don't think...) and still have the same problem with that.

Thank you soooo much for your help!

kittyluv4ever · #2 2009-04-15, 6:05pm

You may try using a different bead release like Fusion or Foster Fire, the breaking of the release while you are working is definitely a release related issue and as far as them getting stuck you may not be getting a thick enough coat of release on the mandrel, I'm not sure as I've never used hotline bead release. If you'd like a sample of fusion and foster fire just pm me your address and I'll send you some as I have lots and have mostly been working off mandrel boro here lately.

kittyluv4ever · #3 2009-04-15, 6:06pm

Whoops forgot to say welcome to the obsession!!

Lorraine Chandler · #4 2009-04-15, 6:07pm

Hi and Welcome...

Your first comment is the best bet...take a class. I drove almost 7 hours one way and stayed in a hotel for 3 days for my newbie class. It was well worth it. I had so many aha moments.

You tube is a pretty good source and its free. Also Corina's Passing the Flame is very good. I refer to mine all of the time. DVD's etc.

The next best thing is the LE library of resources. Use the search box and just type in mandrels and you will get lots of threads to help in that area, do the same with key words to all of your torching questions and you will find lots of answers.

Have fun and just spend a lot of time here reading all of the older posts and you will learn so much.

Lorraine

moonofglass · #5 2009-04-15, 6:12pm

Thanks guys. I'll give a new bead release a try.

I'd love to take a class, it just isn't feasible right now for me to go far away and spend a ton of money.

I do have Passing the Flame, it's a great book!

Thanks kittyluv - I'll send you a PM!

houptdavid · #6 2009-04-15, 6:29pm

Moon, Welcome to the madness!
Go into the "gallery" and look at the newbie show and tell and at the newbie challenge...OK so most of these are for someone with a little more torch time, feel free to join in.

As far as the bead release... 1st put your mandrels in the kiln and run an annealing cycle or take some fine sandpaper to them.

Are the beads spinning on the bead release? You are not heating up the glass enough and/or heating the mandrel.

Is the bead release breaking away from the mandrel? Your glass rod is too cool and you are pulling on the bead.

If the beads are sticking has your bead release popped off in the flame?

Corinna's book is a great tool as are the tutorials here

moonofglass · #7 2009-04-15, 6:36pm

Perhaps...what could I do to prevent it from popping off in th flame? That may be the problem...

houptdavid · #8 2009-04-15, 6:47pm

I don't use a hot head, but if you get the mandrel to hot it will pop off. Start in the back of the flame and warm it up like the glass, don't just stick it in the flame.
Also is it DRY?

bshelle · #9 2009-04-15, 7:50pm

Check out what you can find on youtube as well!

Welcome to LE!

lunamoonshadow · #10 2009-04-15, 8:44pm

If that's the bead release that comes with a "kit" (like from hobby lobby)--it's junk--it's been talked about a lot--but I never heard it called by a brand name--just "the kit stuff"

. Fusion should solve most of your problems in that department.

I'd search some threads on annealling--your schedule sounds not-quite-long-enough....

Welcome to the all consuming addiction!!
~luna

Puddy Tat Glass · #11 2009-04-15, 10:27pm

I don't use a Hot Head, but I have experienced both of the problems you're talking about...bead spinning on the mandrel and bead release flake-off.

Spinning Bead = Bead was attached to the mandrel, but I was trying to manipulate the glass and in doing so broke the release and the bead started spinning. The way to solve this problem is when working your glass with tools such as tweezers don't work too close to the mandrel and don't try to force the glass when it's not hot enough.

Bead Release Flake-Off = I was getting the mandrel too hot or I didn't dry my bead release over night. Drying bead release in the flame doesn't always work for me, but if I dry my mandrels over night it solves my flaking problem. If you get your mandrel too hot the release will crack and the pressure of adding or working glass will cause it to flake off. Just heat your mandrel to a soft orange glow...I don't mean that the entire end of your mandrel should be glowing, just little spots as you move it through the flame. Your release should turn from a dark gray to a light gray when it's ready to add the glass.

Welcome to LE and good luck with your beadmaking.

artwhim · #12 2009-04-15, 10:28pm

Lots of good suggestions already. I also like to allow mandrels to dry overnight before using them. Many people successfully flame-dry, but I have always had better luck allowing them to air dry.

What you're experiencing isn't an uncommon problem for newbies. Once your mandrels have been broken in and you become more patient for the glass to melt instead of forcing it, the problem will more than likely go away. I remember breaking more than my fair share of bead release when I first learned! Bullseye is stiffer than Moretti, so if you notice the problem happening more often when using Bullseye, it will be a good indicator that you are forcing the glass before it is completely melted.

If a bead is stuck on the mandrel, it can often be because the release broke away from the mandrel inside the bead where you can't see the problem. Following David's suggestions should solve your problems. If not, then you could try a different release.

For the beads that are stuck, do you soak them in water before you try to remove them? After soaking, I hold the mandrel in vise-grips, then twist the bead using a rubber grippy (real technical name LOL). Recently, Honeybee posted a tip that she uses the back side to a mouse pad to get a good hold on the bead.

Welcome to the wonderful world of torching!

AKDesigns · #13 2009-04-15, 10:40pm

Make sure that you heat the mandrel coated with bead release to glowing before you apply your glass to it. There is a good tips write up on the Arrow Springs website here:

http://www.arrowsprings.com/html/usi...l_release.html

I think the paragraph under Very Important! will help you the most.

geeterbeader · #14 2009-04-16, 3:06am

It takes a lil while learning all the basics about this addicting little habit of beadmaking. I was just like u, nine months ago- lost and totally frustrated. I didnt get to take a class either. Shoot, i didnt even have the internet bk then. I started out w/ the $100.00 beginners kit from Fireworks that i got at Hobby Lobby! I made my husband do the 1st bead cuz I was too scared. 2 months later the hot head that came w/ the kit pretty much died. it couldnt keep up. Once I got a real torch my beads went from sh*t to *ShiZZaM!! ha ha!
Oh sorry. About ur ?'s. I think ur bead release is probably to thin or ur not gettin enuf on ur mandrel. When u dip ur rod, kinda pull it out of the release fast and you'll get a better coat. If u can still see some metal then u know u dont have enuf. This is for both problems that ur havin. When it is dry look and see if the release is cracked, if it is then dont use em cuz it will break off and ur bead will spin and u will cuss(maybe).
Some good advise: As soon as u can get the book 'Passing the Flame' by Corina Tettinger- It costs about $75 but I got mine on ebay for $45. Its worth the $$ believe it or not.
I hope this helps. Where are u from anyway? Just curious...Me-Western Ky.
-Lindsey

moonofglass · #15 2009-04-16, 5:44am

I'm in Nashville, actually - the closest class I could find was Alabama! Too far...

But you guys have given me great suggestions. The Hotline bead release says that it is "formulated to flame dry" rather than air dry, but you know, I think I'm going to give the air drying a try. I'm thinking that's got to be it - the release is flaking off, bead is sticking to the mandrel, or the release is flaking of before the bead has a chance to stick.

I was forcing the glass to hard on my first attempt, trying to pull before it was fully melted, and I think that was pulling the release away? I may also be not getting it hot enough. Is it possible to get it too hot? I mean, in order to round out the bead, i'm putting it directly above the blue cone in the flame - could that be causing problems? Thanks so much guys - I will check out You Tube!

houptdavid · #16 2009-04-16, 7:49am

Moon,
Try playing with the glass with out the mandrel, see if you can make a round ball a little smaller than a dime with out it falling off. To hot= soupy and it will fall off. Take it in and out of the flame and watch how the glass reacts to the heat from dull red(stiff) to white(soupy)
If you get it to hot, no matter how fast you spin the mandrel it will fall off, don't be afraid to take it out of the flame.

moonofglass · #17 2009-04-16, 9:03am

Thanks David!

theglasszone · #18 2009-04-16, 10:05am

Welcome Moonofglass~~~

Great suggestions so far!!! I agree that your release - being the foundation of any good bead - may be contributing hugely to your problem. I work extensively on a Hot Head, and personally use "Sludge Plus" (available through Arrow Springs and other locations). I have had no problem whatsoever with release breaking or getting the bead off the mandrel when finished. I'm a double-dipper though - and since I favor Big Hold Beads, this helps to insure that the mandrel is well coated.

I have just posted some assistance in a different thread here on LE - to support another new bead maker:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=127106

My Post is #10 - and although some of the questions asked in that thread are torch-related, you may find some tips there, and a good "visual" assist as well.

Keep at it and practice, practice, practice ("PPP" as it's referred to here on LE!). Best of luck to you and we hope you'll show us your progress!

De in CA

2kids&atorch · #19 2009-04-16, 11:30am

Here are a few tips: first, it is a really good idea to get your mandrels "scuffed up" a bit; otherwise the release tends to peel off, even if it is dried slowly. I used to use sandpaper and I would take my new mandrels and rub them with course sandpaper until they were very scuffed (kind of like you would with new shoes). This helps the release "stick" to the mandrel. Secondly, you really do need to heat these suckers slowly, even if you are using release that is formulated to dry in the flame. Finally, even really good release will pull off if you are using too much tension and too much variation in heat (in and out of the flame, lots of heating and cooling). Pulling too hard on the glass with tweezers or even rods will cause it to pull away from the mandrel. This is really a learning curve and you are only on your second day so give yourself a break! I used a hot head for many months before finally switching to a minor (now I am on a bobcat). You will not believe the difference if you make it down the stretch! Good luck!

moonofglass · #20 2009-04-16, 11:34am

De - excellent pictures! That helps. I now realize that I wasn't heating the mandrel enough. I'm finding that the release flakes off when I try to heat it, so I've ordered a different release. Hopefully that will solve my problem - in the mean time, I'll keep practicing on my "defunct" mandrels with the release and hopefully will be able to do better when I get the new release!

moonofglass · #21 2009-04-16, 11:47am

Excellent advice 2kids!

careergalley · #22 2009-04-16, 4:44pm

Dear Moon,
Welcome to the addiction! There is a lovely lady who teaches in Knoxville, I took classes with her when I started last year. Her name is Robbie Gentry, her website is "heirlooms in glass" and here's the best part, she will be in Nashville for a show May 1st! Check her out.
Linda C.

Henrywashere · #23 2009-04-16, 7:40pm

I can tell you right away its the bead release. That is what came with my "kit" dump it straight away. If anything will put you off lampworking Hotline bead release would be it.

moonofglass · #24 2009-04-17, 11:30am

Hi guys! Lo and behold, it was the release. Well, I think the release may be ok, but I was totally treating it "wrong".

When I first started trying to "heat the rod" before applying the glass, the release was popping off in flakes. It was still wet, I think, and so my thought was "oh, I must be getting it too hot, otherwise it wouldn't be popping off!". Well, it turns out it wasn't dry and wasn't hot enough. Last night I dipped the release twice (per suggestions here) and flame dried SLOWLY. I waited until it turned the right color before starting with the glass. And you know what? I made three perfectly round beads! They look kind of crummy because I tried to decorate not knowing what I was doing.

But I made beads! This is so exciting - I can't wait to make more!

klcbeads · #25 2009-04-17, 12:05pm

Everyone gave such great advice the best that I could add is welcome and congratulations on discovering a very expensive, addictive art form!!! All kidding aside, you will love it, but be prepared for tossing your hands up sometimes and tantrums, as well as loads of joy!!!

houptdavid · #26 2009-04-17, 2:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonofglass

Hi guys! Lo and behold, it was the release. Well, I think the release may be ok, but I was totally treating it "wrong".

When I first started trying to "heat the rod" before applying the glass, the release was popping off in flakes. It was still wet, I think, and so my thought was "oh, I must be getting it too hot, otherwise it wouldn't be popping off!". Well, it turns out it wasn't dry and wasn't hot enough. Last night I dipped the release twice (per suggestions here) and flame dried SLOWLY. I waited until it turned the right color before starting with the glass. And you know what? I made three perfectly round beads! They look kind of crummy because I tried to decorate not knowing what I was doing.

But I made beads! This is so exciting - I can't wait to make more!

Pics??????

Lorraine Chandler · #27 2009-04-20, 6:21pm

Here's where the pics came from...in De's post

Welcome Moonofglass~~~

Great suggestions so far!!! I agree that your release - being the foundation of any good bead - may be contributing hugely to your problem. I work extensively on a Hot Head, and personally use "Sludge Plus" (available through Arrow Springs and other locations). I have had no problem whatsoever with release breaking or getting the bead off the mandrel when finished. I'm a double-dipper though - and since I favor Big Hold Beads, this helps to insure that the mandrel is well coated.

I have just posted some assistance in a different thread here on LE - to support another new bead maker:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=127106

My Post is #10 - and although some of the questions asked in that thread are torch-related, you may find some tips there, and a good "visual" assist as well.

Keep at it and practice, practice, practice ("PPP" as it's referred to here on LE!). Best of luck to you and we hope you'll show us your progress!

De in CA

Shawn T · #28 2009-04-20, 7:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonofglass

I'm in Nashville, actually - the closest class I could find was Alabama! Too far...

Glad you got some wonderful advice and fixed the bead release problem.
Welcome to LE!!!

I am in Alabama but come to Nashville quite a few times a year as my Mom lives there. Will be there quite often this summer if your interested in classes let me know.

granny · #29 2009-04-20, 7:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn T

Glad you got some wonderful advice and fixed the bead release problem.
Welcome to LE!!!

I am in Alabama but come to Nashville quite a few times a year as my Mom lives there. Will be there quite often this summer if your interested in classes let me know.

Oh That makes me so jealous...

granny