Frustation with implosion

PKnowler · #1 2011-11-03, 8:04pm

I'm fairly new to lampwork. I'm using a fuel only hot head type torch that I got in my bead makers kit. I've been trying to make implosions with clear glass COE 104 but it takes forever for the glass to melt. I hold the rod at a 45 degree angle so the sides will melt in but after about 30-45 min of this the bead release breaks. I'm so frustrated! Do you think it's me or my torch? Is my torch not powerful enough to make this kind of bead? It takes forever for the glass to melt.

Thanks, Paula

LarryC · #2 2011-11-03, 9:09pm

Paula, I wouldn't even consider doing an implosion with a hothead. Not enough heat. It might be possible but I don't have that much patience

PKnowler · #3 2011-11-03, 9:15pm

It's just as bad if I try and encase anything. The damn glass just won't melt! And if it does and the bead looks alright- then the glass cracks.

I want a real torch so bad.

~Paula

essiemessy · #4 2011-11-03, 11:33pm

Now I know not to try implosions yet on the HH. Always wanted to, though.

Ravenesque · #5 2011-11-04, 1:18am

I made them on a HH quite a few times, looks like a mandrel wound implosion? If so, you sorta want slow heat to melt the disc down evenly, so it actually works out ok on a HH. Mine didn't take 30-45 mins to melt though? I was on a HH for years until I upgraded, I'd never have the patience if it took that long to melt and I like big beads

Are you on a Hot Head or the red 'fireworks' torch? The fireworks torch I really couldn't do crap on so I bought a Hot Head.
First pic is a HH http://www.howacoglass.com/torches.html

Also wondering why your release is cracking, and your beads for that matter

What kind of release? It should hold up that long in the flame.

demcc2 · #6 2011-11-04, 2:30am

It really sounds as though you're on a Fireworks torch setup. The torch itself is inconsistent (at best) and the bead release you're using -probably came in the same kit, right? isn't much better. Only other thing I can say is reiterate what Di said, take things SLOWER- it could very well be very frustrating.

BTW, its NOT you!

Duane

PKnowler · #7 2011-11-04, 7:03am

I'm using a fireworks torch that came with my bead kit. Do you really thinkl there is a difference in the fireworks and the hot head? I thought they were about the same. I'm using bead release I bought from Devardi- it works a little better than what I got in the kit. But sometimes I see it crack off the rod when I just touch glass to it. (The mandrel is hot of course.)

Thanks, Paula

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenesque

I made them on a HH quite a few times, looks like a mandrel wound implosion? If so, you sorta want slow heat to melt the disc down evenly, so it actually works out ok on a HH. Mine didn't take 30-45 mins to melt though? I was on a HH for years until I upgraded, I'd never have the patience if it took that long to melt and I like big beads

Are you on a Hot Head or the red 'fireworks' torch? The fireworks torch I really couldn't do crap on so I bought a Hot Head.
First pic is a HH http://www.howacoglass.com/torches.html

Also wondering why your release is cracking, and your beads for that matter

What kind of release? It should hold up that long in the flame.

Carolyn M · #8 2011-11-04, 7:14am

If you can't afford a mixed fuel torch yet, I would recommend you go to a Hothead, there is a big difference between it and the Fireworks which is one step up from a Bic lighter.

I would also recommend Fusion bead release, but that's just me, Everyone has their favourite!

R4GlassStudio · #9 2011-11-04, 7:32am

You can do implosions on a hot head. It will take more time learning how to place the heat. Thicker base rods should be used to help prevent the splash of the flame from melting and streching the rod just past the disk.

jamie lynne · #10 2011-11-04, 7:39am

I've done implosions on a hothead sucessfully many many times. I actually like the slow melt of the HH for implosions. I can't get the same control with my minor. If I do them (which it's been a very long time) I go back to my HH.

PKnowler · #11 2011-11-04, 8:01am

Thank you all for your comments. If there is that much difference between a fireworks and a hot head I'm gonna buy a hot head-- can't afford a good torch setup yet.

Thanks, Paula

Dragonharper · #12 2011-11-04, 8:30am

If you are on a fuel only torch you may want to try this glass, it is made for fuel air torches.

http://www.artcoinc.com/easy_flow2.php

COE is 132, this is *VERY* soft glass. I've been wanting to get some just to play around with, I would imagine that you could get very detailed with this glass. At the very least you will learn control.

LarryC · #13 2011-11-04, 10:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonharper

If you are on a fuel only torch you may want to try this glass, it is made for fuel air torches.

http://www.artcoinc.com/easy_flow2.php

COE is 132, this is *VERY* soft glass. I've been wanting to get some just to play around with, I would imagine that you could get very detailed with this glass. At the very least you will learn control.

When I first tried a hothead years ago I used this glass and I think I still have some somewhere. It is good but as you would think based on the COE, it is VERY shocky used with a hothead. Still have the scars on me and burns in our ceiling and walls from it

Pre heating the rods is a must.

j2canoe · #14 2011-11-04, 3:40pm

[quote=PKnowler;3768209]I'm using a fireworks torch that came with my bead kit. Do you really thinkl there is a difference in the fireworks and the hot head? I thought they were about the same. I'm using bead release I bought from Devardi- it works a little better than what I got in the kit. But sometimes I see it crack off the rod when I just touch glass to it. (The mandrel is hot of course.)

Paula - you need to heat your mandrel with the bead release on it before you touch the glass to it. Just a few quick passes through the flame will do it. This should stop your bead release flaking off when the hot glass contacts it. It also has the added benefit of getting rid of any moisture that the bead release will collect from the humidity in the air - which will help to prevent little bubbles coming up from the mandrel that you can see when you are using transparent glass.

Ravenesque · #15 2011-11-04, 10:29pm

And yes a Hot Head is hotter than a Fireworks, get one!(if this one doesn't break on you first, they don't last long). There are other recent threads here if you search, you'll see how many loathe the Fireworks.
Many of us have used a HH for years (some still do!) without upgrading. Most glass suppliers will have one. And while at it I would try a different bead release. Like Carolyn M, I prefer Fusion but that varies per user and/or environment, get a few small bottles of different kinds.

Dragonharper · #16 2011-11-05, 2:54am

Implosions (compressions) take patience, even on fuel and oxy, I'm learning that EVERYTHING dealing with glass takes patience, especially learning to work with it.

Harry · #17 2011-11-05, 4:27pm

I tried to do a simple implosion last night too, just to see if I could do it (I couldn't). My problem was that once the maria was formed subsequent heating brought the stem out of center. When I tried to heat just the rim the material didn't flow readily without the stem going half-liquid.

H

j2canoe · #18 2011-11-06, 12:30pm

If you want to do implosions - I definitely recommend Ron Bearer's tutorial (he's posted a pic of it a bit further down in the thread). It is for boro - but everything in it also applies to soft glass (you just need to substitute the colors). It helped me tremendously and his instructions and patterns absolutely couldn't BE any clearer! It is Excellent!

Harry · #19 2011-11-08, 7:39am

I showed my sad attempt at an implosion to a colleague and she asked me why I decided to make a penis bead

I hadn't thought about it at the time but I does kind of have the phallic thing going, especially since I left the stem on for now.

H

PKnowler · #20 2011-11-08, 2:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry

I showed my sad attempt at an implosion to a colleague and she asked me why I decided to make a penis bead

I hadn't thought about it at the time but I does kind of have the phallic thing going, especially since I left the stem on for now.

H

Harry,

It is a little hard to fully see but it looks like you did do an implosion. It looks like the design is imploded in the glass. You just needed to finish it. After the design is imploded you could use a shaping tool like a marble mold to shape it. I wouldn't worry about the shape right now anyway. I don't think it has to be round. I would just concentrate on the imploding technique instead of trying to make a perfect bead- but I would follow through with completing the bead- or marble- don't leave it on the punty. Then you can save your efforts and see your progress.

My 2cents worth.
Thanks, Paula

Harry · #21 2011-11-08, 8:40pm

Thanks Paula, I left it on there because I'm not quite sure how to continue it. I wanted to make a little loop for a necklace where the punty is attached but I wasn't sure how to do that. I kind of liked the wand-like look of it all. I'm waiting for my bluebird kiln. Once I have it I'll slowly bring it back up to temp and by then I hopefully know what I want to do with it.

H

R4GlassStudio · #22 2011-11-09, 7:06am

Harry...
The implosion is one of the best techniques to teach an artist about controlling glass.
The stem stretching is something that happens even in boro. Using a thicker base rod (stem) will help a lot. Thin glass melts faster than thick glass. The way to prevent it is with flame placement and being careful of where the splash of the flame is going. To solve this, the direction of the flame is the most important factor. Another tip is that the splash is filtered out by your protective eyewear. This camera picture does not use a filter and shows the splash well. If you "peek" under your glasses while your working, you will see. Not that I recomend you viewing the flame without glasses on. I hope this graphic helps.
Ron

Harry · #23 2011-11-09, 9:03am

It helps a lot. I'll try it again tonight. Thanks!

R4GlassStudio · #24 2011-11-09, 9:07am

Feel free to PM me anytime with questions.
Ron

PKnowler · #25 2011-11-09, 10:55am

Harry I think we might get this implosion thing if we keep trying.

Thanks for the tip R4GlassStudio, I will try and remember about directing the flame splash too. I still don't have implosions mastered either. I was able to do a mandrel implosion but I can't seem to do an implosion starting with a maria. It just won't implode no matter how long I hold it in the flame at a 45 degree angle down. After I heat the center, melt the dots in and press them down- several times. I will just keep trying. I'm bound to get it one day. LOL

Thanks, Paula

PKnowler · #26 2011-11-09, 11:08am

After thinking about it, while I too have a problem with the stem becoming soft and bent out of shape I consider that the least of my problems at this point. If I could get it to implode then I would worry about correcting the stem problem.
The stem gets bent out of shape and I recenter it when I press the disk down. (I get it pretty centered when I do this- its a little off.) Of course this messes up the front lens and the centering of the disk but do you think it is messing up the fact that I can't get an implosion in the first place?

Thanks, Paula

Harry · #27 2011-11-09, 12:35pm

Have you tried just holding it vertical while moving the edge through the flame? That would probably provide more gravity to the semi-liquid glass on the edge. The one in the picture was held vertical.

H

cheng076 · #28 2011-11-09, 12:46pm

Here's a little trick that may help.
When turning the main rod direct the heat a little below the horizontal center of the maria edge and from just slightly in front. Trun the maria so the bottom comes up on your side and over away from you. That way the hottest part of the maria comes up to the top where gravity acts to pull the glass down into the center before it starts to cool. If you spin the other way the hottest part is down at the bottom and gravity tries to pull the glass away from the center. As the glass starts to come in direct a little heat or flame splash so it touches the outer edges of the center dimple to give that maria edge glass somewhere to go.

PKnowler · #29 2011-11-09, 1:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry

Have you tried just holding it vertical while moving the edge through the flame? That would probably provide more gravity to the semi-liquid glass on the edge. The one in the picture was held vertical.

H

Hey Harry,

Yes I have held it vertically and rotated it for 10 min or more to give time for it to implode, nothing. I've held it horizontally- straight up and down with the maria down spinning in the flame for a long period of time- 10 min or more- and no implosion. I've also held the maria at a 45 degree angle in the flame. I've watched numerous you-videos on how to make implosions but I must not be getting something.

I know what it looks like when it starts to implode. I've made a mandrel implosion so I know how the glass melts around the design and the lens gets thicker as it implodes. You can see it imploding from the side.

I'm not giving up on this- I'm gonna get how to do an implosion from a maria.

It's ok that I can't do it from the start- if everyone could do it when they first start flameworking, the artform wouldn't be a learned skill or talent.

I'm into the challenge!

~Paula

cheng076 · #30 2011-11-09, 1:16pm

I might add that depending on the torch you use it can be a long slow process. How big are your marias? Try smaller and thinner if your torch is small. I seem to recall you are on a hothead??? If so it will seem like forever to get it to implode. Love your attitude. LOL keep it up.