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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #31  
Old 2014-02-23, 8:27am
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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Probably with funnel system with a larger opening (funnel) will need a more powerful fan...JUST LIKE hoods or fume cabinet systems (face opening vs fan cfm) .....

Also flex tubing is not your friend, it causes turbulence in air flow which also causes static pressure (resistance to air flow) which reduces efficiency of a already anemic fan....

Unfortunately there is not any comprehensive study of how to build a system like this with all the proper flow numbers in relationship to duct size and fan capacities....

About all the has been proven is in some cases, is the builder of system has said "it works well for me".... This is not proper design criteria to build a system around....

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2014-02-23 at 8:31am.
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  #32  
Old 2014-02-23, 9:52am
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I looked at the facebook page of all those torch stations set up side by side with the tube style vents. I can only imagine the air quality in there. I would not feel safe working there. I value my lungs, and my health for that matter. The fumes from the torch just don't know they are supposed to go up there, some do I 'm sure, but most just circulates thru the room. In my oppinion, a hood or funnel to capture the fume equipped with an appropriate fan and ducting are the only way to protect yourself as much as you can. I torch 5 to 6 days a week, and proper ventilation is very important to me.
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  #33  
Old 2014-02-23, 10:46am
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post

About all the has been proven is in some cases, is the builder of system has said "it works well for me".... This is not proper design criteria to build a system around....

Dale
Yup. I experimented with mine for years. It can be made to work well but it needs a much more powerful fan than this and I as I already stated previously that flex duct should be replaced. To be truthful ALL rules of thumb are just that. After setting up two separate full overhead hood systems, experimentation and adjustment were key for making both draw correctly. Heres my current setup.
Attached Images
  
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  #34  
Old 2014-02-23, 10:50am
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary K View Post
I looked at the facebook page of all those torch stations set up side by side with the tube style vents. I can only imagine the air quality in there. I would not feel safe working there. I value my lungs, and my health for that matter. The fumes from the torch just don't know they are supposed to go up there, some do I 'm sure, but most just circulates thru the room. In my oppinion, a hood or funnel to capture the fume equipped with an appropriate fan and ducting are the only way to protect yourself as much as you can. I torch 5 to 6 days a week, and proper ventilation is very important to me.
In my personal experience, these types of systems can be effective if done well.
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  #35  
Old 2014-02-23, 4:07pm
Talonst Talonst is offline
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^^^^ Nice Hood!

Is that something that you fabricated or were you able to find that through a supplier!
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  #36  
Old 2014-02-23, 4:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talonst View Post
^^^^ Nice Hood!

Is that something that you fabricated or were you able to find that through a supplier!
Thanks. I havent found anyone who sells them as standardized products. If you know of anyone please let me know. Hood was fabricated to my specs by a friend who is a sheet metal worker. I tried to get a local shop to make it but they wanted $900. Friend did it for much cheaper.

Last edited by LarryC; 2014-02-23 at 4:52pm.
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  #37  
Old 2014-02-25, 7:20am
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PerlenFlo PerlenFlo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary K View Post
I looked at the facebook page of all those torch stations set up side by side with the tube style vents. I can only imagine the air quality in there. I would not feel safe working there. I value my lungs, and my health for that matter. The fumes from the torch just don't know they are supposed to go up there, some do I 'm sure, but most just circulates thru the room. In my oppinion, a hood or funnel to capture the fume equipped with an appropriate fan and ducting are the only way to protect yourself as much as you can. I torch 5 to 6 days a week, and proper ventilation is very important to me.
Mary you are referring to the facebook page with my ventilation system. And I agree just using the tubes to catch the fumes would fail. But as you can read in the text (and now see in the picture gallery on facebook) I use a really strong fan (1,200 m 42.000 ft).

There are a few advantages of this setup
  • Tube opening is placed as close to the flame as possible, this ensures that fumes are not spread wide before
  • It guides the hot air upwards where it would go naturally (It's a kind of a small hood)
  • Air is mixed minimal with fresh air, which reduces required power
  • The wider the entry is (funnel or hood) the more turbulence you get which results in mixing fresh air with fumes. Cooler mix might not tend upwards that much any more. As described you need a stronger fan to get the same result
I know the setup can be enhanced i.e. using tubes rather than the flex ones. I could reduce the power needed for the fan.

I think we all agree that the fumes are hot (otherwise all hoods etc. would fail). This means so simple as it sounds using the hands as temperature detector can show where the fumes are going. You have to make sure to test it with and without fan and with a bead etc. in the flame as well as without. If you can distinguish where the hot air goes and where the fresh air begins you can place whatever ventilation (hood, funnel, tube etc.) best. You need to test all combinations above with different torch settings.

This is no guarantee and no scientific proof. If you have any symptoms as described by several users trust them more than any of our proposals here. I had them really bad before I installed my ventilation and I'm sure this is not healthy.

But now I do classes with 6 torches for 7 hours and none of the attendees ever complained (I explicitly asked)!

Make sure your health is the most important thing in your hobby, you only got one.

PerlenFlo
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  #38  
Old 2014-02-25, 7:55am
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yellowbird yellowbird is offline
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Great information THANKS

I think this is the hardest part of setting up a studio or has been for me.
it always amazes me to see some teaching facilities without any ventilation .

I have hood envy ^
what is the first photo with the fan
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  #39  
Old 2014-02-25, 8:16am
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird View Post
it always amazes me to see some teaching facilities without any ventilation .

I have hood envy ^
what is the first photo with the fan
Most of the larger teaching shops here in the SF bay area have zero ventilation. Sad really.
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  #40  
Old 2014-02-25, 8:20am
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PerlenFlo PerlenFlo is offline
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Hi Yellowbird

I agree I don't know how teaching facilities can work without proper ventilation.


Not sure what you mean by "first photo with the fan"?
This is the link to the pictures of my fan
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...70195476525497
and here the label with the tech details
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...70195479858830

I think 1 m/h = 0,58867 CFM

Just as an example: If the room is 6 by 2 meters with a height of 2.5 meters (1 Meter = 3.2 foot) which is 30 m
Using my fan with full power would exchange the air in the room 40 times per hour or every 1.5 Minutes. Even if ducting etc. will reduce this, it will we sufficient. You shouldn't do that in Winter, when it is cold outside, because if you transport the air outside the building, the same amount of fresh/cold air will replace it in the room.

PerlenFlo

Last edited by PerlenFlo; 2014-02-25 at 8:22am.
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  #41  
Old 2014-02-25, 8:29am
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yellowbird yellowbird is offline
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sorry I was asking about the 1rst photo in post #33
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  #42  
Old 2014-02-25, 12:12pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird View Post
sorry I was asking about the 1rst photo in post #33
Its the fan pulling air through the hood. squirrel cage.
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  #43  
Old 2014-02-25, 5:02pm
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yellowbird yellowbird is offline
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yes thanks

but what is happening after the fan?
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  #44  
Old 2014-02-26, 11:58am
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird View Post
yes thanks

but what is happening after the fan?
steel screen and then exhaust to free outside air.
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  #45  
Old 2014-02-26, 8:20pm
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Mary K Mary K is offline
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There has always been a difference of opinion on ventilation technique, but
after seeing and reading an article in glassline years ago, where someone had
a special way of photographing the fume that comes from an average sized torch,
I had to agree that some sort of hood - funnel capture method was the only method
that would even be close to adequate. I am not alone in this thinking, as I
had lots of help designing my system for my own studio from the local
ventilation guru here.
I did not think that your system had no fan, I knew it did, but I just
don't think that those tubes can evacuate the fume from those torches.
I have friends with big studio's and they have big hoods and huge fans.
Just my take on ventilation.
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  #46  
Old 2014-02-27, 7:03am
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PerlenFlo PerlenFlo is offline
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Mary

I would like to stop this discussion here, we do have different experiences and opinions. Happy to have non-public discussion (Personal Message) though.

I do respect your opinion! But people searching for a solution for their own ventilation, might get the impression it is the only truth.

As I tried to explain there is a rational behind my installation, approved by a ventilation expert as well, and the fuming test (I used smoke) works perfectly. How can you tell just looking at the "those tubes" that this is not working? (Even hoods are using tubes and they are made for ventilation) People using my studio might feel uncomfortable now.

Since I wanted to make sure that people working in my studio are on the save side I listened to experts (you might call them gurus), read a lot and tested myself (I did not want to rely only on what other people said). And only after tests proofed that my setup works for my environment I started using the studio.

All above is just my opinion.
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  #47  
Old 2014-02-27, 8:24am
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Under the right conditions small funnels can be made to work quite effectively. Welding shops use portable ventilation systems using funnels effectively and they are available commercially. Both have limitations and advantages. Just because its published in a magazine doesnt mean its well researched.
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