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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #31  
Old 2008-06-29, 11:38am
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I posted this in its own thread, as it was not caused by flashback. It is informative on the power in our tanks though.

This guy was just plane stupid, and I am willing to bet none of us would ever have tried it.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=96436
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  #32  
Old 2008-06-29, 1:46pm
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OK...well, I've got a headache, stomach ache, and heart ache about this all! I thought I had a handle on it, then after seeing Dale's latest post - and Pam's regarding the correct "shut off" valve (and thanks for posting - I REALLY DON'T WANT TO GUESS!) I think I might be back to square one.

I'm going to call around to qualified "gas rated", licensed plumbers to see what the cost would be to have this professionally done. My hubby is great with the electrical and H2O stuff, but gas would kind of equal "guess".

Anyone know what a sensible cost would be to have the line professionally done through the wall? I'm still talking with the PROPANE tank, that is - not the NG.

Thanks - now for more aspirin! The wait continues...

~De
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  #33  
Old 2008-06-29, 4:44pm
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Glad you weren't hurt John!

Ok, now I'm glad I have a flashback arrestor for my propane even though I'm on a surface mix (Lynx).

Question: I notice when I light my torch and then add oxygen, my flame sometimes flares long orange tips and then shrinks and the pressure on my regulator drops so I have to turn the regulator pressure thingy more to get it back up to 5 or so again. Is that something to worry about? Is that normal? I don't have a flaskback arrestor on my oxygen because I'm using a concentrator. Dang- should I?
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  #34  
Old 2008-06-29, 6:14pm
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After reading this, I just ordered a set of flashback arrestors...I too was under the impression that flashback only occurred with internal mix torches. I run a Minor with an oxy-con-do I need one for that????-Vanessa
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  #35  
Old 2008-06-30, 9:42am
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Gas valves are certified by different (more demanding) standards.... There are a lot of shut off valves on market.... Not all are certified for very low pressures that our gas connections are ...

If you read tag on valve it will state if it is "gas" approved. No tag don't buy it...

A high pressure water or compressed air valve may NOT seal correctly at extremely low pressures....

Unfortunately I don't have a listing of standards for "gas" valves, but it should be available on I-net under ASTM or ANSI standards I think...

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2008-06-30 at 9:53am.
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  #36  
Old 2008-06-30, 9:48am
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Default NOTE on FLASHBACK Arrestors.

Just a note....

Flashback arrestors come in two types. One type mounts at regulator, one type mounts at torch valve. IF you want total protection get type that mount at torch end of hose.

A flashback arrestor mounted at regulator only protects regulator and tank. Not hoses.

A flashback arrestor, mounted at torch protects, hose, regulator, and tanks.

IF a torch mount arrestor had been used in Maui Greenstone's case, hoses never would have had blow-out due to flashback.

There would have been only the little "POP" and it would have been over with absolutely no excitement....

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2008-06-30 at 9:51am.
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  #37  
Old 2008-06-30, 10:02am
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Dale:

Thanks for the input! I'm going to call both my gas supplier and a local welder today to see if I can find the correct shut off valves and maybe my gas supplier can provide the certified and appropriate equipment needed to do the "through wall" install.

I have a Mini CC; can you recommend where I can purchase Flashbacks that go on the torch end? Don't know if there are different ones for different torches; I'm assuming the go in the "line" just after the hose leaves the torch? Arrrgghhh - I should know better than to assume anything at this point!

Thanks again!
DeAnne in CA
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  #38  
Old 2008-06-30, 10:13am
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A gas certified valve should be available at any good hardware store or home improvement center.... Key words here is "gas certified".....

As for flashback arrestor, one source is from Sundance Art Glass.

http://www.sundanceglass.com/gas%20equipment-r.htm

Local welding supplier and many online welding and glass retailers should have them...

Dale
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  #39  
Old 2008-06-30, 10:44am
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Awesome Dale! I've ordered my inline Flashback arrestors from Sundance! If I put these in line before they reach the wall area, I suppose it's still necessary to pipe correctly though the wall...that quest continues, but this is a HUGE help to me to make my area safe.

Today IS a better day...

Thanks so much!
DeAnne
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  #40  
Old 2008-06-30, 12:02pm
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DeAnne,

if you need a flashback arrestor/quick disconnect combo for the fuel line ONLY, then try ARROW SPRINGS. They sell tham as a packet for both fuel line and oxy line...or as a fuel line only, or as an oxy line only.


Combination Flashback Arrestor and Quick-Connect
Complete 4 Piece Set ..... $75.00 Part# FLASHQU
2 Piece Oxygen Set Only ..... $43.00 Part# FLASHQU-OXY
2 Piece Fuel Gas Set Only ..... $43.00 Part# FLASHQU-GAS


If you should add the HOSE CONNECTION (not the regulator connection) take into consideration the added length of this connection. This will mean that the parts will stick out around 3" to 4" inches further from your torch. Also be aware that with the HOSE CONNECTION, if the line should somehow be compromised (a leak in the hose with static in the area, a hot chunk of glass falling on it, etc...), then the regulator and the tank are not protected. BOOOOOOOOM!!! (Just food for thought).

The way I have mine set up is with the REGULATOR attachment. I took it off my acetylene tank. (I have an oxy/acetylene set up). The way I see it, I need to ensure that the TANK does not blow up. If the hose burns and pops...that's OK. My hose is not too long, and does not hold much fuel. It may cause some scorching or surprise, but it won't blow an arm off. Whereas, if the TANK BLOWS...then that's a totally different story. Especially with an acetylene tank...or a bulk propane tank.

Glad you're sleeping in peace now. Maybe others will now be able to do likewise.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Here's some WESTERN FLASHBACK ARRESTORS (regulator mounted) for sale on eBay.

Last edited by RaymondMillbrae; 2008-06-30 at 1:24pm. Reason: Cuz I thought of some more stuff.
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  #41  
Old 2008-06-30, 1:19pm
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Hi! I'm currently in the process of upgrading to a Minor with one oxycon and looking into using (houeshold pressure) natural gas. I just wanted to check in with you experts and verify if I do or don't need flashback arrestors for this type of set-up?

Also, the contractor I'm considering using to install my NG hook-up said I could tie into an existing pipe in my garage, install the shut-off valve at that point, and run a long length of flexible gas (25' propane) hose up the wall, across the ceiling and back down to my torch. This way I don't have to poke any holes in walls. I was wondering if this sounds like a safe and viable alternative to hard piping the NG thru the wall from an outside main line?

Thanks!
** Lori
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  #42  
Old 2008-06-30, 1:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoriB View Post
Also, the contractor I'm considering using to install my NG hook-up said I could tie into an existing pipe in my garage, install the shut-off valve at that point, and run a long length of flexible gas (25' propane) hose up the wall, across the ceiling and back down to my torch. This way I don't have to poke any holes in walls. I was wondering if this sounds like a safe and viable alternative to hard piping the NG thru the wall from an outside main line?

Thanks!
** Lori
If it were mine, I would rather see 25 feet of metallic piping from "source" (existing piping) to point very near torch, and shutoff valve at "close reach" of work area and shortest possible hose on torch.... Long hose draped over ceiling is just a extension of the possible flashback problem/hazard by putting potential "fire starter" in upper reaches of garage..

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2008-06-30 at 1:38pm.
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  #43  
Old 2008-06-30, 8:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondMillbrae View Post
DeAnne, if you need a flashback arrestor/quick disconnect combo for the fuel line ONLY, then try ARROW SPRINGS. They sell tham as a packet for both fuel line and oxy line...or as a fuel line only, or as an oxy line only...If you should add the HOSE CONNECTION (not the regulator connection) take into consideration the added length of this connection. This will mean that the parts will stick out around 3" to 4" inches further from your torch. Also be aware that with the HOSE CONNECTION, if the line should somehow be compromised (a leak in the hose with static in the area, a hot chunk of glass falling on it, etc...), then the regulator and the tank are not protected. BOOOOOOOOM!!! (Just food for thought)...
Raymond~~~

Thanks for the input; I should have been clearer on what I was stating, I guess. I've gone the "better overboard than under protected" route. I already have Flashback Arrestors and Quick Disconnects for both my Fuel and Oxy at the regulators outside. I made the purchase of the Flashbacks that I will be tying into my lines for the interior hoses - I'll be cutting them into the line about 2 1/2' from the torch, before the wall connection. These are what I bought (about 1/3 down the page - Items FA10 and A2):

http://www.sundanceglass.com/gas%20equipment-r.htm

This will allow me to do the following basic set-up; Dale, if you see something that needs tweaking on this "layout" plan, I would ask you to please let me know!!! This description of the whole set up takes it from the torch backward to the fuel/oxy sources:

A. Mini CC torch with "cut" hose ends and hose clamps;

B. 2 1/2' T Grade Hoses from both sources, each attaching to appropriate, hose clamped Flashback Arrestors (described/linked above);

C. Hose Clamped from each Arrestor with:

(1) Oxy line running through pipe housing in wall to outside Oxy Tank, with additional Arrestor/Quick Disconnect before Regulator and

(2) Fuel line running from Arrestor to Shut Off valve at INTERIOR wall, rigid pipe through wall, Shut Off valve at pipe exit at EXTERIOR wall and gas grade flex hose from this shut off valve to Arrestor/Quick Disconnect before Regulator at Propane (this part is per Dale's diagram on Glass Answers)

Whew! Hope that makes sense! I think that although this might be "overkill" (wince, I don't even like typing that in the context of this thread), I don't think there's any chance whatsoever of having any kind of serious accident with this set up (barring a scud missile hitting my house or someone intentionally trying to blow up the tank!)

Feedback, please!!!!!!!!

DeAnne in CA
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  #44  
Old 2008-07-01, 12:12am
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Dale - HELP!!!

This is the Gas Shut Off Valve they have at Home Depot:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100200276

It is available in a variety of sizes - 3/8", 1/2" and so on. The "male" end of the valve, which I figure I'll be attaching my T-Grade hose to (?), is apparently known as a "flare" fitting (I was told it's a standard reference to a "gas" grade hose connection). Do you know if this thread pattern will accommodate my "B" fitting on my T-Grade hose? If so, do you know what size (1/4", 3/8"...) I need to fit? I'm wondering if the "B" fitting is 3/16", in which case I'LL PROBABLY HAVE TO FIND AN ADAPTER! (Arrgghh!!) Don't necessarily want to drag my hose there if you know the "simple" answer! If it's not designed to accommodate the "B" fitting, is there an "adapter" that I can use to make this gas shut off work?

Thanks for everything! I tried to send you a PM/email and privately THANK YOU for all your input and efforts here to help us out, but apparently that option is disabled! I hope you don't mind me stating my appreciation here - publicly!

I'm this "..." close to being ready, I think!

~De
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Last edited by theglasszone; 2008-07-01 at 1:46am.
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  #45  
Old 2008-07-01, 4:50am
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De,

most of the quick connects and fitting at Home Depot and Lowes will NOT fit your hoses or regulator. (Unless you find them in the welding department, and they are 9/16" inch connections). As a matter of fact, the natural gas stuff you can find at these places will also NOT fit your hoses and regulators.

Most of the stuff they sell at the home improvement stores are either a 1/4" inch or a 3/8" inch thread. But the "B" hoses and regulator threads we use are usually a 9/16" inch thread/connection.

If you want to connect a fitting for natural gas to your hoses/regulators, you will need to purchase adaptors. They may have them at your local home improvement store...and then again, they might not. But you can always drop your local welding shop (or propane supplier) a line and ask them.

It's gonna cost you a few shekels to get this all together. But once you understand what you are doing, and WHY you are doing it - it'll all be worth every last penny. (Just like taking the time to understand proper ventilation, and hooking it up correctly).

Hope that helped.

In Christ: Raymond
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  #46  
Old 2008-07-01, 7:40am
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As stated in other threads...

You will need a "B" fitting or "outlet bushing" to "connect" welding type hose to standard metallic piping.... And probably an adapter/reducer to make it fit to gas valve...

"B" fitting....



Here is reducer to mate gas valve to "B" fitting...



"B" fitting is not the usual "Home Depot" item... Usually found at welding suppliers or online sources....

Try "mcmaster.com" and look for part #79215A2 if you can't locate one locally.

The gas valve you probably want will have two female threaded ends and will be either 1/2 inch ir 3/4 inch pipe thread...

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100345785

Dale
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  #47  
Old 2008-07-01, 7:57am
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Thanks Dale!

~De
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  #48  
Old 2008-07-02, 11:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
If it were mine, I would rather see 25 feet of metallic piping from "source" (existing piping) to point very near torch, and shutoff valve at "close reach" of work area and shortest possible hose on torch.... Long hose draped over ceiling is just a extension of the possible flashback problem/hazard by putting potential "fire starter" in upper reaches of garage..

Dale
Thanks for the input, Dale and it's kinda what I was thinking too. But it would be a ton more expensive to have the plumber guy put in all metal piping for me. I was wondering if I could get away with covering the exposed soft hose with metal piping myself on the ceiling and walls, sort of like a sleeved effect? Then wouldn't that protect the hose from any hot glass, etc. as potential fire starters? And the propsed shut off valve site is only a few feet behind my chair, so it's about the same distance as putting on the same side as my torch (my work bench is pretty deep and wide).

If you still don't think that's a good solution, I may end up going with propane instead if my budget can't stretch. If I do, then could I thread the soft hose through a metal pipe that goes through the outside garage wall?

BTW, just wanted to say how much I appreciate you and others like yourself who have done so much research and are always willing to share their advice with us!

** Lori
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  #49  
Old 2008-07-07, 12:02am
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Lori~~

I see you didn't get a reply yet on your question...didn't want to leave it to chance, so I'm posting in this thread again to bring it back to everyone attention!

For sure, the idea of threading your "soft hose through a metal pipe that goes through the outside garage wall" is a HUGE "NO NO". This was my original idea until Dale set me straight (and the last thing I want to do is void my Homeowner's Policy!) See Post #8 and #14 above for Dale's reply to me and his suggestion for properly piping the line through the wall.

I've been tearing my hair out and going back and forth with a ton of possibilities - especially in light of the fact that most "gas grade" products (including those available at Home Depot and other home improvement stores) have a "flare" fitting (these are standardized uniform threads for compatibility amongst the gas rated products) - including the gas grade shut off linked in Dale's posting (right above his signature) #46 above.

So.........I THINK I'VE FINALLY FOUND ALL THE COMPATIBLE PARTS!!! I'm going to take a photo of the "set up" (before it gets attached to the lines and run through the wall) so I can CONFIRM that it's OK. If I get the "thumb's up", I'm going to list the name and part number of every single part so others can refer to this and not have the same nightmare trouble I did!!!

Basically, I purchased:

a) One 9" long 1/2" diameter Gas Grade "Black" Pipe with threads at both ends (this will be the part that goes through the wall);
b) Two 1/2" female end Gas Shut Off Valves (as linked in Dale's Post #46 above) - one for inside and one for outside - each attaches on opposite ends of the Black Pipe;
c) Two reduction couplings that will reduce the 1/2" openings of the open end of the Valve down to 1/4";
d) Two couplings with 1/4" on one end and 1/8" diam. "barbs" on the other to attach my T Grade hoses with hose clamps (inside to run to in-line Flashback then on to torch; outside to run to Quick Disconnect/Flashback/Regulator)
e) A bag of proper sized steel "U" shaped thingies (to attach the pipe to the firebreak stud in the wall.

SO THERE!!! I'll post a picture - but I can't imagine that this is anything but PERFECT and completely and totally safe!!!

I'm hoping Dale see's this and gives me the feedback (ALL SYSTEMS "GO") my ears (and torch) are dying to hear!

~De
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  #50  
Old 2008-07-07, 12:06am
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And while I'm up so late and posting - a special "shout out" to Maui Greenstone...hope all is well with you - any word on your torch as to what actually happened? I gotta say that I'm really glad you posted and although this was a pretty scary experience for you, I think it got a lot of our attention and was well worth all the great information that came out of it. I for one will rest assured, once I've got my Propane properly piped, that I will definitely be SAFE should I ever have a flash back in my torch!

Thanks again!
DeAnne in CA
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  #51  
Old 2008-07-07, 11:03am
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I am so confused. DeAnne, I hope you post a pic that will work. We just went today and got hoses, etc. for the O2 and propane. My studio is almost there. This is important for that.

eta...tried to pm you Dale with no success. I registered to see the pics on Glass Answers, but am awaiting an OK from admins. Husband and I are right at this stage now and I'm anxious to get this right. Maybe with DeAnne's pics?
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  #52  
Old 2008-07-07, 11:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachertracey View Post
I am so confused. DeAnne, I hope you post a pic that will work. We just went today and got hoses, etc. for the O2 and propane. My studio is almost there. This is important for that.

eta...tried to pm you Dale with no success. I registered to see the pics on Glass Answers, but am awaiting an OK from admins. Husband and I are right at this stage now and I'm anxious to get this right. Maybe with DeAnne's pics?
Due to PM overload, I've turned off access for a few days....Please forgive me..

You are good to go on AGA...

Dale
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  #53  
Old 2008-07-07, 11:20am
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Tracey:

I too had to wait to get the picture access - hopefully Dale will see your request and activate your log in quickly. I also hope he has a chance to see my photos and LONG explanation of what I intend to do - and gives the THUMBS UP!!!!

I don't want anyone to duplicate my efforts only to find that it isn't quite what I hope it will be, or needs additional tweaking to be up to "code". Speaking of which....

I inquired of my local Fire Department if they do any kind of "inspections" to help confirm that my set up is proper and they told me - "not their job". They suggested I contact my insurance company (since they would be the ones that would have any "issues" if there were to be a fire) and inquire if they have an inspection procedure. Next on the list, I guess!

Pictures of my through-wall set up shortly...

~DeAnne
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Last edited by theglasszone; 2008-07-07 at 11:28am.
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Old 2008-07-07, 11:56am
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EDIT NOTE: After further input from DALE M., this design has been modified slightly and will be added to in a further post below. In addition, as promised, I will be providing all SKU information so that anyone can purchase these same component parts from their local Home Depot stores. ~De

OK! Here's my Photos of all component parts and the final assembly (just a quick put together for pictures; final will include the proper "gas grade" tape, wrench tightening and full check for leaks!):

1. Black Pipe (measure depth of wall and add 1" each side):



2. Gas Grade Shut Off Valve:



3. Coupling/reducer from 1/2" to 1/4":



4. Coupling/hose fitting from 1/4" threaded end to 1/4" hose barb:



5. Misc. supplies - Gas Grade "tape" for connections, hose clamps, pipe strap:




6. A quick look at the final "assembly" before installation:



FEEDBACK and INPUT - PLEASE!!!!!

Thanks,
~DeAnne in CA

PS - Sorry for the ugly quick pics.; I'm donating at the Red Cross in an hour and am on the fly!!!!
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Last edited by theglasszone; 2008-07-12 at 12:22am.
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Old 2008-07-07, 12:48pm
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Thanks, Dale.

Thanks for the pics, DeAnne. My dh is home at 6 and I want him to see this.
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Old 2008-07-07, 3:26pm
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We have the flashback arrestor from regulator to hose. I also just ordered the arrestor that mounts at torch end. Do you use both or just one? Please...need help. Thanks.
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Old 2008-07-07, 4:12pm
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Hi Tracey:

I have one at the tank, along with quick disconnects, that attaches to my regulator at the tank. I also am adding an "in line" one (From Sundance Glass) about 3' from my torch, which will be the "inside" arrestor. I just figured I would be over-the-top safe! Maybe overkill, but......

DeAnne in CA
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Old 2008-07-07, 5:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theglasszone View Post
OK! Here's my Photos of all component parts and the final assembly (just a quick put together for pictures; final will include the proper "gas grade" tape, wrench tightening and full check for leaks!):

1. Black Pipe (measure depth of wall and add 1" each side):



2. Gas Grade Shut Off Valve:



3. Coupling/reducer from 1/2" to 1/4":



4. Coupling/hose fitting from 1/4" threaded end to 1/8" hose barb:



5. Misc. supplies - Gas Grade "tape" for connections, hose clamps, pipe strap:




6. A quick look at the final "assembly" before installation:



FEEDBACK and INPUT - PLEASE!!!!!

Thanks,
~DeAnne in CA

PS - Sorry for the ugly quick pics.; I'm donating at the Red Cross in an hour and am on the fly!!!!
Ummm..... There is going to be a problem...... With simple pipe straight through wall, there is no way to keep it from sliding back and forth and rotating when you try to work the gas shut off valves.... What you probably need to do is add a couple of 90 degree turna (elbows) and a another short length of pipe so it "runs along" outside wall for a short distance, this will also provide a place for your clamps to hold pipe where you want it...

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2008-07-07 at 5:22pm.
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Old 2008-07-07, 5:19pm
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Thanks Dale for your suggestion. One thought....I'm assuming these "Shut Off" valves aren't going to be (nor need to be) used unless there is a flashback (or earthquake) or some other similar difficulty. I would be "bleeding" (shutting off/burning off) the line after every torch session, and that would be from the torch all the way back to the tank. Then, using the quick disconnects to remove the hose at the tank/flashback point, I'm wondering how the pipe will by subjected to enough use to cause "rotation" in your explanation?

Please let me know what you're thinking...and thanks for your feedback thus far. I think I'm just an elbow's turn away from having this all dialed in!

~DeAnne in CA
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Last edited by theglasszone; 2008-07-07 at 5:22pm.
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Old 2008-07-07, 5:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theglasszone View Post
OK! Here's my Photos of all component parts and the final assembly (just a quick put together for pictures; final will include the proper "gas grade" tape, wrench tightening and full check for leaks!):

1. Black Pipe (measure depth of wall and add 1" each side):



2. Gas Grade Shut Off Valve:



3. Coupling/reducer from 1/2" to 1/4":



4. Coupling/hose fitting from 1/4" threaded end to 1/8" hose barb:



5. Misc. supplies - Gas Grade "tape" for connections, hose clamps, pipe strap:




6. A quick look at the final "assembly" before installation:



FEEDBACK and INPUT - PLEASE!!!!!

Thanks,
~DeAnne in CA

PS - Sorry for the ugly quick pics.; I'm donating at the Red Cross in an hour and am on the fly!!!!
Ummm..... There is going to be a problem...... With simple pipe straight through wall, there is no way to keep it from rotating when you try to work the gas shut off valves.... What you probably need to to is add a couple of 90 degree turn and a another short length of pipe so it "runs along" outside wall for a short distance, this will also provide a place for your clamps to hold pipe where you want it...



Dale
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