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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #61  
Old 2008-07-07, 8:57pm
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OK!!! That's all of about $5.00 more (or less!) and definitely DO-ABLE!!! So Dale - what do you think about the "rest" of the set up? I'm thinking that there are a lot of folks in the same predicament as me - not knowing how to pipe through properly and moreover, where to buy/what to use as component parts.

With that in mind, I'm going to write down and post all the parts I'm using to assemble this entire project, along with an approximate cost. I will list it all here - and I think this will be a huge step to getting everyone on board with the right way to "do it", without all the headaches and guessing (definitely not a project to make "guesses" with!) - and from a store that ALL OF US have fairly easy access to.

~De
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  #62  
Old 2008-07-08, 9:58am
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Thanks DeAnn and Dale for posting this great set-up! It's exactly what I was looking for and I can't wait for the supplies list so I can install one too. You guys ROCK!
** Lori
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  #63  
Old 2008-07-10, 9:45am
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Hi! I am so glad Maui started this thread and that DeAnn ran with it. I have done a lot of research on how to hook up through a wall, but even with photos of the finished set-up, and lots of posts about how to do it, I still didn't get how to put it together.


DeAnne, your pictures are very helpful. Thank you! Thank you Dale for the info and diagram. It now makes perfect sense on how to do it. I am printing this out so can use it in the future if need be. I rate this 5 stars.


Back to Flashback Arrestors. I think there is a lot of controversy about the need for them. I know there was when I asked about using them. I'm worried about the many people who have read on here and other Forums that they do NOT need them.

Here is good information written by a torch manufacturer who posted previously about using FBA on this forum:

Some of things I will write will completely contradict the advice of others in this thread. Please understand that my company is a manufacturer of torches and automated machinery using torches, and I have been with them for over 10 years, currently heading up sales, R&D, automation developement, and other hats that aren't relevant. As such I am intimately familiar with the innerworkings of the torch, gas and oxygen use, industrial codes, etc. Of course, most of what I will state below is educated opinions, so in the end you must make your own decisions. I would never tell someone that they have to buy anything, but I will recommend what I think is best for their setup and situation.

Flashback Arrestors in use with pre-mix torches: Becuase the gas and oxygen are combined, prior to exiting the torch, there is a high chance of flashback occuring. In most cases, this flashback will not travel any further than the torch itself. In severe cases, the flashback will travel into the supply lines and possibly to the tanks. Wherever your flashback arrestor is in the line is the only place you can say definitively that a flashback arrestor will not go any further than this point. Flashback arrestors are highly recommended for pre-mix torches, and in some cases are required by codes.

Flashback Arrestors in use with surface mix torches: The fuel gas and oxygen are completely separated in this kind of setup. Therefore, a flashback occurence is rare. However, you must understand that if the torch is faulty, or if it gets dropped, shipped, banged, or otherwise damaged, then the small metal peices that separate the two gasses can leak. If they leak, you are just as likely, if not more likely to have a flashback. Flashback Arrestors are a safety device, like an insurance policy in a way. If you choose not to use them, that is your call. Please do not fault myself or any other supplier for recommending them simply becuase you do not beleive in a "in case of" kind of situation.

Flashback Arrestors / Fire Checks in use with natural gas: Most folks are aware that a flashback arrestor will not work with natural gas. This is because the pressure of the natural gas in your home is roughly 1/4 of a pound of pressure and the flashback arrestor requires 1 pound of pressure as a minimum to operate. There is a device that can work with natural gas and that is a fire check. The fire check, which Carlisle manufactures, is the only device I am aware of that can provide flashback protection for a natural gas line that is under 1 pound of pressure.

Flashback Arrestors and oxygen concentrators/generators: Although there is not a significant danger involved in not having a flashback arrestor on a concentrator, the flashback arrestor still can provide protection to your concentrator investment. Should a flashback travel to an oxygen generator, I am not quite sure what would happen, but I do beleive that it would have a good chance of damaging the concentrator in some way. Therefore, you are protecting the concentrator unit from harm should you choose to use a flashback arrestor with it.

Regualtors and fluctuation issues: This is a common problem that is usually seen as the torch "breathing" or changing its flame size rythmically every few seconds or so. The most common cause of "breathing" is the propane regulator. If you see the needle moving up and down slightly in time with the torch, then you have diagnosed your regulator as being the problem. The issue here is that many regulators are either cheaply made, or have a very large scale (0 - 100 or 0 - 200) which is just not what we as flameworkers are looking for. We want to run anywhere as low as 2 psi up to maybe 15 psi. When you set the regulator that is meant to be between 0 - 100 to say 2 psi, you are really testing it's quality limts. It most likely cannot find 2 psi consistently, so it hovers between 1 and 3 psi (this is known as "hunting"). How do we solve this problem? The easy way is to purchase a regulator more suited to the job, such as a 0 - 15 (the smallest I have found) from a good manufacturer (not made in China). The best way however is to use two regulators. One at the tank that is set around 15 psi and one at the torch that is set to your desired delivery pressure. This method is called dual regulation, and is the only way to ensure you do not have "hunting" or "breathing".

The original post in this thread: (the other thread not THIS one) I think that each of your peices of equipment were working fine, but the flashback arrestor should be removed and replaced. I have heard of a situation like yours before, although it is rare and I cannot say with certainty how it occured. Here is my theory. The flashback arrestor works by sensing a pressure difference from the inlet side to the outlet side. I beleive the threshold of that differnce is 10 PSI. Your flashback arrestor saw that difference somehow (i.e flashback occured, pressures spiked, faulty arrestor perhaps) and shut down flow. You were not able to re-establish from through this unit until the flashback arrestor reset. Once you unhooked everything and put it back together you said that it started working again, which may indicate that until the pressures were fully released on both sides of the unit it could not reset. Bottom Line: Get a new set of flashback arrestors and install them, or just remove them from your setup if you would rather not use flashback arrestors.

Shutting down your tank and regualtor set: Leaving your tanks on when you are not using them is dangerous, will destroy regulators, and pretty much you just shouldn't do it. I suggest that you shut off the tanks first, then bleed your lines, then turn out your T handle on the regulators. This ensures that all the pressure, even that on the feed side of the regulator is gone.
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  #64  
Old 2008-07-10, 10:36am
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ahh i just wanted to ask can a HH flash back? cuz im getting one in a week and id rather not blow up
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  #65  
Old 2008-07-11, 7:47am
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Angela (and Chris)- Thank You! Finally an answer to the concentrator question.
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  #66  
Old 2008-07-11, 8:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d2063614 View Post
ahh i just wanted to ask can a HH flash back? cuz im getting one in a week and id rather not blow up
Simply, NO.... Its design precludes any possibility of that...

Dale
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  #67  
Old 2008-07-11, 5:41pm
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Thank you very much i was pretty worried seeing these propane explosions on youtube but now i cant wait!
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  #68  
Old 2008-07-11, 7:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d2063614 View Post
Thank you very much i was pretty worried seeing these propane explosions on youtube but now i cant wait!
Due to the accessibility to any data, via search, its possible to come to the conclusion by the preponderance of pictures that everyone is going to blow up sooner or later......

Considering the number of propane tanks in use and if you go by the reasoning on above method of accumulating data you could expect at least two or three to blow every day in your neighborhood....

Well its not that bad.... If you disrespect the safety aspects of pressurized fuel there is a good chance of a incidence, yet again there are thousands of propane tanks all over the world and all you hear is of a occasional problem....Its only with the ability to concentrate the data that the number of incidents seem over whelming...

Like with everything else in life it requires a certian amount of respect so it does not turn on you....

Dale
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  #69  
Old 2008-07-12, 12:42am
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As promised, and with consideration of the modifications/suggestions of Dale M. (Thank You!) to incorporate a "Z" format to the final assembly to add stability, I've completed the final "Piping Tanked Propane Into Studio" guide of sorts, along with photos of all component parts and part numbers (located just above bar codes on packages) from Home Depot which should be available Nationwide*. To assist your understanding, I've included some close ups and a few views of the final assembly. (*Some items cannot be found online, but are available in stores.)

NOTE: Please review the suggested layout as it pertains to your particular studio, particularly as to the location of both the Propane Tank and the wall hole that the pipe will enter the studio, etc. Additional modifications in pipe lengths may be necessary. It may also work to your best circumstance to have a simple "L" design as opposed to the "Z". I suggest you draw out your basic studio layout, take general measurements to determine pipe lengths necessary (wall depth, for example, as well as the distance from the exterior pipe's location where it exits the wall to the propane tank), and think this through until you are comfortable with the basic concept before purchasing.

FURTHER, I will be using hose clamps to tie in the T-Grade hosing on both ends of this assembly at the barbs – one that leads to an inline flashback and onto the torch (interior); the other that leads to a flashback/quick disconnect/regulator and on to the Propane Tank (exterior). Here we go!

WHAT YOU'LL NEED:

1. Gas Grade ” Black Pipe (measure depth of wall and add 1" each side) threaded at both ends:



NOTE: I am not providing a part number for this item as it will vary depending on the depth of your studio wall. Suffice it to say that this is standard “Gas Grade 1/2" BLACK Pipe”, and you will want to allow approx. 2” more in the length than the actual depth of the wall. For example, if your wall depth (from inside finished wall to outside finished wall) is 6”, this pipe should be purchased in an 8” length.

In addition, if you are making the “L” or “Z” designs, additional pipe in appropriate lengths will need to be purchased and added using the Elbow listed in #5 below.

2. (Brass/Red Handle) Gas Grade Ball Type Shut Off Valve, ” female fittings on both ends (Part # 110-523HC):



3. (Brass) Male Pipe to FIP Hex Bushing ” x ” (“reducer” from 1/2" to 1/4") (Part # 17000827):



4. (Brass) Hose Barb Adapter ” Barb x ” MIP (Part # 17000192):



5. (Brass) Cast FIP to FIP Elbow ” (Part #17000805)



6. Misc. supplies - Gas Grade "tape" for connections, several ” hose clamps, Galvanized Steel ” IPS 2-hole pipe strap (Sold in packs of 10):




OK - Let's do a run-through of how this all works. REMEMBER to use the proper Gas Grade Tape to insure a nice, tight fit on all connections when you do the final assembly. BE SURE TO TEST ALL CONNECTIONS FOR LEAKS (using the "soapy water/bubbles" method) once assembled and installed. Tighten as needed. SAFETY FIRST!!!

First, Parts 4 and 3 above - fit together:


Add Part 2 – Shut Off, and attach to Black Pipe:



(Same assembly on the other end of pipe)



If making the "L" or "Z", add the elbows and additional pipes as needed. At the "end of the line" so to speak, add the second (exterior) Shut off with necessary couplings and barb end to attach your hose to.

A view of the “Z” modification per Dale’s suggestion to further anchor the pipe to prevent rotation (See Dale's helpful Diagram in Post #60 above). As shown here - for picture purposes only - this assembly is turned sideways. In reality, the short pipe portion with the barb seen on the left would run through the wall into your studio and the longer portion seen standing up would actually be running horizontally against the wall toward your Propane Tank:



Hope this helps some of you out!

~DeAnne in CA
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Last edited by theglasszone; 2008-07-12 at 9:21am. Reason: Clarifications :)
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  #70  
Old 2008-07-12, 11:38am
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Dayum!!! I've got a Mini CC and don't have a flashback arrestor because it was my understanging that I didn't need one. You better believe that's changing!!!!!!!!!
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  #71  
Old 2008-07-13, 1:07am
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I've had my set of flashback arrestors/quick connects sitting in their box in a drawer in my studio for the last three years. I guess I better put them to use!!

Anybody have a picture of their torches with quick connects and arrestor combos ?? I have no idea where on the hoses they go and how to set this up.

Do these interfere with oxy flow?? I have a generator.
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  #72  
Old 2008-07-13, 11:53am
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Lisi,

the below picture is of a Quick Connect/Flashback Arrestor combo (QC/FA combo), mounted onto my DWP's regulator. (I purchased the QC/FA combo from Arrow Springs). I already had a "back check valve" attached to my regulator, so the QC/FA mounted directly onto it.






The below picture is of the Quick Connect (QC) attached to the hose.




These last two pictures are the QC/FA attached together and ready to torch.






They say a pcture is worth a thousand words, so I hope this helped.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: We have two OxyCons, and we do NOT have flashback arrestors on ours. The way I see it, oxygen is not a fuel, so I am not too worried about a dangerous leak - especially since the OxyCon carries almost no pressure. (Unlike a 2000 psi Oxygen tank). Some folks say that flashback arrestors on an OxyCon may even void the warranty on the OxyCon, but I'm not sure about that, as I've never looked into it. But I do know that some flashback manufacturers state that their products require between 1 to 2 psi's of pressure for them to work, which SHOULDN'T affect an OxyCon.

PSS: I just noticed that I may have TWO back check valves on our set-up. I think the Arrow Springs CQ/FA combo may have a back check valve already built into their set-up. Gotta look into that, as two back check valves may hamper the fuel flow, hence causing lower than usual fuel pressure. (Which is definitely a "no-no").

PSSS: "Yup"..."Sho Nuff"...the Arrow Springs set-up already had a back check valve built ito their system. So now I gotta remove the original, Smith, one I had. Shoot, don't you hate it when you're gonna have extra parts laying around?

Last edited by RaymondMillbrae; 2008-07-13 at 12:45pm. Reason: Just saw something.
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  #73  
Old 2008-07-13, 3:00pm
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Again may I remind people that flashback arrestors at propane tank- oxygen tank will NOT protect hoses..... BEST placement for flashback arrestors is at torch.

Dale
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  #74  
Old 2008-07-13, 3:34pm
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Is there anything wrong with having an arrestor both at the torch and tank?
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  #75  
Old 2008-07-13, 3:51pm
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Is there anything wrong with having an arrestor both at the torch and tank?
I sure hope not!!! I just scraped together enough funds to buy the "in line" F/A for the "inside studio protection" and I've got a set already outside at the regulator. I can't imagine that this would be a "wrong" thing to do - maybe a bit of overkill (probably a bad choice of words in this particular thread, but se la vie!) but better safe than sorry - yeah?

De
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  #76  
Old 2008-07-13, 4:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PittsGlass View Post
Is there anything wrong with having an arrestor both at the torch and tank?
No.... but if you have one a torch, it kind pf makes the expense of putting one at tank a extra expenditure of resources with out making any improvement in safety...

Dale
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  #77  
Old 2008-07-13, 4:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PittsGlass View Post
Is there anything wrong with having an arrestor both at the torch and tank?
No.... But if you have one at torch, it kind pf makes the expense of putting one at tank a extra expenditure of resources with out making any improvement in safety...

Dale
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  #78  
Old 2008-07-13, 8:13pm
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Hey Folks/Folkettes,

I've been welding for years, and two of my good friends are the welding instructors at CCSF. (City College San Francisco). These guys are also responsible for "weld training/certifying" the electricians for the IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers - the San Francisco Electrical Union).

Anyhoo, the MAIN thing that should be protected - AT ALL COSTS - is the fuel tank. In the shop, F/A are installed at both ends. (Regulator and hose). The main reason to place a F/A at the regulator is in case the hose is compromised. During the welding process metals are being cut, and a result is "slag". If the hose should be accidently cut on a sharp/jagged piece of metal, or burned through with a hot piece of slag (or any other crafty method that Mr Murphy has hidden up his sleeve), there's a chance that the fuel tank will go KA-BOOOOOOOOOM!

Yes...even if you have a F/A at the hose connection.

But if you have a F/A at the regulator, the fuel tank will not ignite or explode.

So if I decide to place a F/A at the hose...it's cool. But like I said, the fuel tank itself is not protected if the hose should be compromised. (Like a cut in the hose and static in the area). And please don't start crying about, "But I don't weld metal"...or..."But there's never anything sharp around my hose"...or..."Blah, blah, blah".

Now, let me ad a little something. I will admit that I am not sure what type of damage can occur if the propane in a 25' foot hose should ignite. Will it cause something to catch on fire? Will it "POP" and scare 10 years out of my life? Can it cause massive bodily injury? If there's positive pressure in the hose, the propane will expell outward...so how can it ignite within the hose?

I don't know. I've heard stories, but ultimately, I don't know.

But it pales in comparison to the thought of the propane tank exploding if the hose is compromised.

So to end, my primary concern is the fuel tank. (Which is why I was sure to add a F/A at the regulator). But if I may be transparent...I will also be adding an "in hose" F/A sometime soon.

When it comes to life and safety, you CANNOT put a price tag on it!!

These are only my opinions, and are the reasons why I do what I do for my DWP's safety.

I just wanted to put out some more information for yall to think about.

In Christ: Raymond

Last edited by RaymondMillbrae; 2008-07-13 at 8:38pm.
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  #79  
Old 2008-07-13, 8:46pm
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Raymond~~~

I happen to agree with you - and even if this is WAY TOO MUCH SAFETY and far beyond necessity, I'll just torch more relaxed knowing that both ends are covered. Since I don't think it will inhibit the flow of fuel in any way (?) - yeah?

~De
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  #80  
Old 2008-07-14, 4:33am
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De,

one F/A will inhibit the flow of fuel. So of course, two will inhibit the flow of fuel even more.

But...ummm...I'd be willing to sacrifice that 1 or 2 psi of pressure (for safety) any day.

By the way: when you open the main valve on the bulk propane tank, and then close the fuel line at the torch, the regulator valve is controlling the pressure WITHIN THE HOSE. So even if you have 2ea F/A attached (one on the regulator, and one on the torch), you can still adjust the fuel pressure within the hose with the regulator.

The only time having 2ea F/A's hooked-up MIGHT be a problem, is if the bulk propane tank is REALLY, REALLY, low. Why? Because the reduced fuel pressure caused by the two F/A's, in conjunction with the lowered overall pressure because the tank is running low, might drop the pressure enough that the torch will not work. (Which is also a cause of a flashback). But like I said, the tank has to be almost empty (pushing out almost 5 psi's without F/A's attached) for the latter scenario.

Did that make sense?

Anyhoo...those are my thoughts.

Thanks for your ears, yall.

Be safe out there. And I only want to hear about explosions at next years 4th of July celebration...NOT in your studios!!

In Christ: Raymond

Last edited by RaymondMillbrae; 2008-07-14 at 12:29pm. Reason: Because my mama said I could.
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  #81  
Old 2008-07-14, 9:35am
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Well, that makes sense Raymond! I wonder if it's best to refill the propane at some point way prior to it running low. A really dorky question...how do I tell if my tank it getting close to empty besides it affecting the flame? I thought about weighing the full tank, and then weighing it periodically - I have a "20 lb." - purchased from Home Depot, and I think it's conventionally used for the BBQ.

~De
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  #82  
Old 2008-07-14, 12:07pm
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RaymondMillbrae RaymondMillbrae is offline
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De,

they have a whole bunch of different little gadgets to tell if you are running low, or not.

They have a few styles that attach directly to the bulk propane outlet:

ONE STYLE
ANOTHER STYLE
AND YET ANOTHER STYLE

And then they have the "El Cheapo" magnetic ones.

HERE'S ONE
HERE'S ANOTHER ONE
AND YET ANOTHER STYLE

Personally, I don't use anything. But I was thinking about one ...maybe.

In Christ: Raymond
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  #83  
Old 2008-07-14, 12:16pm
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Oh, thanks Raymond! I saw one like the actual gauge type at Home Depot the other day - I just was wondering how much stuff I'm going to be attaching to this tank...it already looking like a "robot arm" on the Space Station with the Regulator, the Flashback Arrestor and the Quick Disconnects - ha! I'm going to have to build it it's own "garage" soon!

~De
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  #84  
Old 2008-07-14, 12:38pm
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RaymondMillbrae RaymondMillbrae is offline
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One more thing before I call it quits...

My brother runs an entire Home Depot here in the SF Bay Area. And unless you purchased the tank and refill it yourself, it'll probably be cheaper (and safer?) to get on a plan where you can just "swap-out" the tank when it is empty.

I know companies like "Praxair," "Air Gas," "Home Depot," and "Lowes," have similar programs. (But not all Lowes & Home Depot's offer propane swaps, as not all of them have the huge propane tank on site to refill the bulk LP tanks)

Use the tank. Finish it. Take it to the store to swap it out. Walk out with a different, but full, propane tank.

You probably already know this, but I just wanted to throw this out for someone who might NOT have known this.

Toodle-Loo.

In Christ: Raymond

Last edited by RaymondMillbrae; 2008-07-14 at 12:40pm.
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Old 2008-07-14, 12:47pm
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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Any device on tank that relies on pressure to tell you how full tank is is notoriously inaccurate.... Tank pressure is related to temperature.... On a cool morning tank will read low...Late in day as temperature of tank peaks it will read full, With out you drawing off or adding any fuel to tank.

Only way to accurately tell how much volume is in tank is by weight or by temperature....

Propane weighs in at 4.25 pounds per gallon. A #20 tank holds 4.7 gallons of propane.... What you want to calculate is weight of tank and propane... Tank wight (tare) is on tank safety collar and it is "constant" (something like 18 pounds)... So a full tank will weight 18lbs (tank) plus 19.9lbs( propane) for a total of 37.9 lbs.... From there on it is a matter of just doing simple math as to how full tank is.... Old bathroom scales under tank is real good "gauge"..

Second method is temperature.... heat a pan of water to almost boiling and then take it out and drizzle it down side of tank, next run your hand down side of tank where you have drizzled water, the transition point from warm to cold is how full your tank is of liquid.....This method is almost same as "stick on" level indicators that change color to indicate level of fuel in tank...

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2008-07-14 at 12:51pm.
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Old 2008-07-14, 12:47pm
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Thanks, Raymond, for the suggestion. This may work for some folks, but after hearing a lot of stories of polluted gas, etc., and since I've already invested in a brand-new, clean tank - I've got a station just 3 blocks away that will fill it for me, too - I'm going to stay away from the "swap out" plan. Further, though you didn't mention it specifically, I've heard that "Blue Rhino" doesn't have the best reputation of providing clean tanks/gas in the swap program. Apparently, it's a-ok for using on the BBQ, but I've heard stories of scummy glass troubles with them. Not wanting to bash anyone, just a head's up!

~De
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Old 2008-07-14, 12:51pm
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Thank you, Dale. I was unaware that you could "weigh" propane.

Thank you, De. I've heard about "bad LP, but I had totally forgotten about it.

Good info!

In Christ: Raymond

Last edited by RaymondMillbrae; 2008-07-14 at 1:34pm. Reason: I wanted to be a tad more specific.
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Old 2008-07-14, 1:00pm
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I'm just loving this thread. Thanks all you guys for the details.
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Old 2008-07-16, 3:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondMillbrae View Post
Hooooo-Weeeeeeeeeee!!

SNIP:
Quote:
Always check your fuel pressure when initially starting, and then recheck it after you have everything set at your working pressures. And always bleed your fuel hose after you are done.
Oh yea...and try to follow P.O.O.P..

Lesson learned - the hard way.

In Christ: Raymond
For some reason I've been wondering if my regulator/torch/flashbacks are working right, even before this thread started. Now I always re-check the pressure gauges after I light my torch. I never really used to pay attention to them once I set the pressure and was up and running. Seeing that they are working properly while torching eases my fears. I wanted to point out this useful bit of information Raymond posted in case anyone missed it.

Also my flashback arresters have built in check valve just as Raymond found out his did. Maybe many do? Just a heads up for those who may be wondering if they need those also. Of course I also found instructions on how to test the valves (at the regulator end). I couldn't figure it out. So have to just hope they still work. Sigh...it's always something.

Angela
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Old 2008-07-16, 3:51pm
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PS: I wiegh my tank with a bathroom scale. I know how much it weighs with the regulator on, without it, full, empty, did I miss anything? I write those weights on the tank with a black sharpie. Once you get that down, it's real easy to know when the tank needs filling.
Learned another good thing in this thread, ie; that low tank pressure can cause a problem!
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