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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2009-03-30, 3:54pm
Olimpia's Avatar
Olimpia Olimpia is offline
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Default Understanding Thermal Cracks?

Ok, I thought I understood somewhat thermal cracks but I am a bit frustrated and maybe someone can help me out.

I just took the pictures, the bead was fine. Came to the computer to list it and it has a thermal crack, long straight line running full length of the bead. I actually have two doing this.

Am I just really not heating the bead well enough before putting in the kiln? One of them has murrini and it was devitrifying so I was trying to erase the divit for a while, maybe I just didn't heat the bead enough.
or...
Anything to do with my kiln?

This is Hayley's schedule which she was so kind to give me and I have been using successfully for quite some time.

Garage at 890
When I am done making beads
Ramp up to 920 in 15 minutes
Soak/hold at 920 for 1.5 hours (for beads up to 1" thick, length doesn't matter)
Ramp down to 800 over 2 hours
Hold for 15 minutes
Shut off

This is the bead, which I made on Friday.


And this one too:


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  #2  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:06pm
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Pretty beads.

Sorry I offer no help. I never annealing that low (maybe that's why all my silver glass went 'poop'). My annealing is on 970. I even soak it for at least 1 hour, even for 1/2" round beads.
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  #3  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:16pm
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Olimpia - I can't really see where the cracks are, are they along the mandrel line? Sorry those cracked! Love the top one!

Have you checked your kiln to make sure that the temperature is accurate? I have been using this schedule for . . . as long as Terra first came out? . . . and only had a couple of cracked beads along the mandrel line. I only use this schedule with all 104 beads (ok, maybe a itsy bitsy of 96 frit once in a while).
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  #4  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:20pm
RyanTheNumberImp RyanTheNumberImp is offline
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As far as I am aware most 104 glass is annealed at 960-980f. It can vary a lot by kiln and there will always be some variation in temperature sensors. The position of the bead door in relation to the heating element can also make a huge difference.

I don't get slumping in soft glass until well past 1150f and will anneal gathers/pulls for murrini at 1075. (But I have a leaky bead door.)

I'd bump up the kilns temperature a bit.


My full annealing schedule is:
8 hours at 980 (I just end this step when I finish beading)
20 minutes at 980 (To make sure that every bead spends at least 20 minutes at 980)
Ramp slowly down to 520 and hold for 20 minutes (520 is the strain point of most 104 glass)
Turn off.
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Last edited by RyanTheNumberImp; 2009-03-30 at 5:22pm.
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  #5  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:22pm
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What kind of glass are you working with? You don't say if you are annealing COE 90, COE 96 or COE 104.
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  #6  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:41pm
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http://www.arrowsprings.com/html/eff..._moretti_.html

Effetre
Coefficient of Expansion (COE): 104
Annealing range: 920 - 968º F
Strain Point: 840º F
Softening point: 1050º F
Working Temperature: 1400º F
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  #7  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:43pm
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Assuming that you are using COE 104 glass, your hold temperature is too low. It looks like you are using the strain point (850) instead of the annealing point (96 as the basis for your schedule. Here's what I use for COE 104 in my Paragon Caldera kiln:

SEG RATE TEMP TIME
1 FULL (AFAP) 960 5.00*
2 400/hr 700 .00
3 0000 (OFF)**

*This is 4 hours of work time at the hold temperature, plus a 1 hour hold for the last item in the kiln.
** Allow beads to cool down to room temperature at a natural rate before removing them from the kiln
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  #8  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:44pm
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That's 960 degrees, not 960)

Silly smileys
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  #9  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:51pm
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Does my glass look 2 big?
 
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Hayley, thank you! I also loved that top one.... bummer! Anyway, yeah, when I took the picture it didn't have the crack yet. It runs along the mandrel. I really need to check the temperature in the kiln. What do I need to buy?

It's all 104 glass.

Thank you all!
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  #10  
Old 2009-03-30, 5:58pm
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Does my glass look 2 big?
 
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Sorry guys, you were all typing when I was, didn't mean to ignore you. I have been following Haylay's schedule quite successfully for quite a few months. Just these two beads in my last firing.
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  #11  
Old 2009-03-30, 6:05pm
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I borrowed a friend's pyrometer to test my kiln. It's the same one Squid as - a K-2 I think!
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  #12  
Old 2009-03-30, 6:08pm
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Couldn't this be a compatiblity issue? What glasses are you using?
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  #13  
Old 2009-03-30, 6:10pm
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Does my glass look 2 big?
 
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Man, someone should start a business renting these things? I would do it if I had the initial investment money!
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  #14  
Old 2009-03-30, 6:12pm
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Does my glass look 2 big?
 
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No, I kinda doubt it, it's a nice single line, running the full length of the bead. The first bead is Effetre only, the second one has some silver DH glass, not sure I remember which one.
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  #15  
Old 2009-03-30, 6:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LampworkLori View Post
Couldn't this be a compatiblity issue? What glasses are you using?
It's not a compatibility problem. That would be an all over "crackle"
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  #16  
Old 2009-03-30, 7:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
I borrowed a friend's pyrometer to test my kiln. It's the same one Squid as - a K-2 I think!
That is indeed the one I have - and I anneal as low as Hayley does and quite successfully. 920 is well above the strain point.
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  #17  
Old 2009-03-30, 7:05pm
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Seems simple enough, Hayley uses this schedule quite successfully. You can anneal at any temp above the strain point, but you have to hold longer and cool slower to relieve the stress the closer to the strain point the annealing temp is.

So, a few possibilities: 1) the temp is off in your kiln and you are attually holding below the strain point. (I don't think this is it because you are not seeing cracks when you remove the beads, but later) 2) you are not heating the bead consistently before placing it in the kiln and at the low temp it is thermal shocking (don't think this is it for the same reason as above) 3) these beads are larger and need to be held for a longer time at the 920. (good possibility) 4) shutting off at 800 is allowing your beads to thermal shock after the annealing. (probably the best possibility)

I personally would never hold my beads that low, but Hayley is doing it for a specific reason that justifies her risks and she has tested her kiln to make sure that the controller is showing the real temp inside the kiln. I would suggest that you lengthen the holding period at 920 to 2.5 hours and see if that remedies the cracking. You could also garage at 920 instead of the 890 and see if that helps. Finally, and probably the place to start, ramp down to 400 at the same rate, rather than stopping at the 800 you are using to prevent thermal shocking the beads.

One question, what kind of kiln are you using?
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  #18  
Old 2009-03-30, 7:29pm
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Wow thanks Pam!
Very clear and makes a lot of sense. I'll adjust as suggested until I can actually test my kiln.
My silver glass does nicely, but if my temp is off, well as nice as it is, if they're cracking that's not nice very nice. For all I know my kiln could be way off.

I really need to find a way to test it soon.

These are the only beads with problems under this schedule though, out of couple of hundred I would guess...

Thank you all again!
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Old 2009-03-30, 7:32pm
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I would like to add a fifth possibility. With pressed beads and Olimpia saying that she spent a bit more time on the murrini - perhaps she just didn't give the bead an all over even heating before popping it in the kiln?

Just a side note - the reason I garage at 890 and not at my annealing temperature is because of the spike in kiln temp whenever you open/close the door being as much as 25-30F (I have a 4" high kiln door). I don't want the spike in the kiln temp to be higher than my annealing temp.
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  #20  
Old 2009-03-30, 7:38pm
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Oooops, forgot to answer the question about the kiln. It's a Jen Ken F4, I think that's the model. It's 4" tall too with a bead door. I think Hayley and I had talked about the spikes in these kilns before.

I did get the lower temp coil from Jen Ken. That's when I was loosing lots of my colors in the silver glass. That helped a lot.

Yeah I spend too much time getting my murrini just right and then I am afraid to melt them flat if I heat the bead too much.
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  #21  
Old 2009-03-31, 6:04am
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Does my glass look 2 big?
 
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Good Morning!
I think just adding some time to my cooling period is easy enough. I still make beads during the day and does its thing all night, the kiln going through a longer schedule makes no difference, other than doing good!

I will also add :30 to my annealing, easy enough also.

I have done well at 930, I actually increased it a bit when I changed to a low temperature coil. This one helps prevent the spikes. I spoke to Jen Ken about this, I believe Squid recommended I do and it's done perfect, again particularly with silver colors.

All in all, I really think I just messed up on the top bead. But not so certain on the bottom bead. That one has no exterior surface to speak of except the top and bottom dots. I find it hard to believe I wouldn't have heated that one up, but I wouldn't swear I did either.

Is this a good pyrometer?
http://www.dickblick.com/products/sk...tal-pyrometer/

It's a shame to buy one to use it maybe once a year, but what is one to do to make sure ones kiln is accurate?

Any chance anyone can recommend this one, it's cheap!!
http://www.continentalclay.com/detai...yID=42&PID=919
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Last edited by Olimpia; 2009-03-31 at 6:21am. Reason: Added another link for pyrometer
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  #22  
Old 2009-03-31, 6:34am
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Do you by chance belong to a group of beadmakers, an ISGB chapter or informal club? It seems to me this would be a great way to spend some of the club money and that way it would be available to all members.
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  #23  
Old 2009-03-31, 7:09am
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I am not, and I should. I have a wonderful local chapter too!

That is a wonderful suggestion, who knows? Maybe they already do something like that.

I'll email them, and become part of it too, something long due.
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  #24  
Old 2009-03-31, 7:49am
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Olimpia - not all pyrometers are created equal, I was told. Some are only accurate within 20F, etc. I believe that the K2 is one that's supposed to be accurate within a narrower margin.

Another way to measure your kiln temp for now (without the pyrometers) is to leave your kiln door open for an hour - then just use a household thermostat to check the temp outside your kiln vs your controller readout. If it's spot on - say room temp of 65 - then your kiln should be pretty accurate.

Edited: it's K2!
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Last edited by Hayley; 2009-03-31 at 8:47am.
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  #25  
Old 2009-03-31, 7:58am
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Hayley, did you mean K2? I was looking at the K2 that is $62, that's not too horrible. But horrible enough if I'm going to use it twice a year, it that much LOL.

Also, what an ingenious idea! I can give that a try today! Something is better than nothing, right?

Thank you all so much!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
Olimpia - not all pyrometers are created equal, I was told. Some are only accurate within 20F, etc. I believe that the K9 is one that's supposed to be accurate within a narrower margin.

Another way to measure your kiln temp for now (without the pyrometers) is to leave your kiln door open for an hour - then just use a household thermostat to check the temp outside your kiln vs your controller readout. If it's spot on - say room temp of 65 - then your kiln should be pretty accurate.
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  #26  
Old 2009-03-31, 8:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
Oooops, forgot to answer the question about the kiln. It's a Jen Ken F4, I think that's the model. It's 4" tall too with a bead door. I think Hayley and I had talked about the spikes in these kilns before.

I did get the lower temp coil from Jen Ken. That's when I was loosing lots of my colors in the silver glass. That helped a lot.

Yeah I spend too much time getting my murrini just right and then I am afraid to melt them flat if I heat the bead too much.
That lower power coil was what finally fixed my kiln with silver glass too!
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Old 2009-03-31, 8:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
Hayley, did you mean K2? I was looking at the K2 that is $62, that's not too horrible. But horrible enough if I'm going to use it twice a year, it that much LOL.

Also, what an ingenious idea! I can give that a try today! Something is better than nothing, right?

Thank you all so much!
The K2 is the one I have and it works great
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  #28  
Old 2009-03-31, 8:21am
Diane (clarus) Diane (clarus) is offline
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Hi Olimpia, the pyrometer I have is the K2. I got it from Tracy's Glass Workshop:

http://www.tracysworkshop.com/p-1927...pyrometer.aspx

They have it for $59; that was about the cheapest I was able to find it. I rarely use it anymore now that I have a digital controller, but it's nice to have it as a calibration tool to check the actual temp periodically.

By the way, your beads are gorgeous!

-Diane
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Old 2009-03-31, 8:32am
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Olimpia Olimpia is offline
Does my glass look 2 big?
 
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Diane, thank you so much for the comments on my beads! And the tip where to get it a tad cheaper. Seems like you've done all the leg work already! Thank you.

Squid, the lower temp coil made a huge difference in silver glass, I thought... thank you so much too!
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Old 2009-03-31, 8:36am
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Kalera Kalera is offline
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The first thing I would do, as others said, is definitely check the temp and make sure it's accurate. The second thing is, I'd raise my garaging temp by 15-20 degrees, simply because if you're holding AT the strain point, every time you open your kiln door, your kiln drops THROUGH the strain point, and even though most of your beads will probably survive that, any that are especially sensitive will be susceptible to cracking.

Good luck!
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