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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2013-06-02, 12:53pm
Elinor Elinor is offline
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Default Red scum on blue/green glass

Hi guys;

I'm using a hothead on propane with very few problems over the last few years, but I'm having a weird problem with discoloration. I drain my line regularly, but sometimes the torch flame is very orange tinged and sooty no matter how far I turn it up or down. When it does that, my blue and green glasses get a red surface film after exposure to the flame, and all the colors get greyish.

I suspect it might be a reaction to the stink chemical in the propane, but I've had the tank purged several times, swapped lines, and changed torches, and the problem keeps coming back. The only constant denominator is that it gets worse as the tank gets emptier. Anyone else had this problem?

~Elinor
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  #2  
Old 2013-06-02, 1:01pm
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You got the glass too hot and the copper is coming out in the greens and blues and shows as red. Sometimes you can let the bead cool slightly and reheat it but sometimes you're stuck with it.

Work your glass a bit cooler.

Sue
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Old 2013-06-02, 1:03pm
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Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Do you think that's the same issue that's causing the other colors to soot up and go grey, or do I still have another factor running around out there?
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  #4  
Old 2013-06-02, 1:30pm
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If you get red too hot, yes, you'll burn the color out of the glass and there is no coming back from that. Do some searches and you'll come up with a lot of past threads that have dealt with these issues.

Pinks also burn... lol- ask me how I know! Gelly Sty Pink is your friend. Trust me on that one! Great pink.

Rubino is too pricey to burn the color out but it's easy to do. Sometimes you can get it back but when you can't, wow, it's an expensive color to ruin.

Try working further out in your flame. The hot head has a really bushy flame... you may not think it but further out is better.

Sue
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  #5  
Old 2013-06-02, 3:06pm
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Try what Sue suggested and if no improvement, then it is the propane. I would switch to propylene. It is more expensive but it burns a lot cleaner and a little bit hotter than propane. I have been making beads for a long time and every now and then I will disconnect my Bobcat and play with the HH and propane. An epic fail every time. I tried that for the last time a few months ago. Brown streaks on transparents, red streaks on blues and greens, and just muddy colors all around. No matter how much playing around with the flame I do. Propane can vary in quality from state to state, and in some areas it is pretty bad.

I do want to work with the HH again, so I am saving for a new propylene tank. It will cost me around $100 for a 60lb tank because they don't have the 30lb tanks at my local welding shop anymore. But if used 6-8 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, the 60lb tank will last me about 5 months. That is a pretty good deal.

Give propylene a try. Chemically, it is almost identical to Mapp Pro. You won't be disappointed.
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  #6  
Old 2013-06-02, 4:29pm
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What Lisi said.

I also work exclusively on a HH, and find the propane flame to be too fuel rich and dirty (even the canisters); I have more consistent success with the Propylene (MapPro). It doesn't turn my copper based glasses red unless I want it to (by covering the holes obviously), and it generally doesn't over reduce my reduction colors either.

Alli
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Old 2013-06-02, 7:18pm
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You are actually reducing the glass, causing the copper in it to come to the surface. Work farther out in the flame.
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  #8  
Old 2013-06-02, 8:57pm
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Oh, I forgot to mention how long it was that I worked with the HH exclusively, before I got the Bobcat. It was 18 months, and I started off right away with the bulk propylene. I used the 1lb MAPP canister once, with my first two days of torching. Every now and then I would switch the propylene tank with the BBQ tank, just to see what would happen. This flame was so darn dirty, and I could see this strange way that the flame hit the glass. Hard to describe, but it was probably very reducing. Plus the propane flame would be greenish. The propylene flame never did either of those things.

Anyway, when I upgraded to the Bobcat and oxygen generator, I still used the HH often until there was a propylene tank problem in Texas in 2006. No one got hurt, but all the 30lb tanks from certain states were recalled. I could not get another tank for three years, or what really happened was that the stupid welding shop did not want to order the new stock. I couldn't get a straight answer from them for a year. So I stuck with the Bobcat and played with propane and the HH. I was SO disappointed because I tried so long and so hard, and the propane just was not going to do it.
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  #9  
Old 2013-06-03, 5:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaGirlBT View Post
You are actually reducing the glass, causing the copper in it to come to the surface. Work farther out in the flame.
Yes and no. The short story is that you are working too close to the nozzle. The copper combines with the carbon in the torch atmosphere and you get a brick red film or streakiness. You can usually get rid of it but working further out and reheating the affected areas.
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  #10  
Old 2013-06-03, 8:38am
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Actually the red color is from the fuel gas robbing oxygen from the copper oxide in the glass and precipitating crystalline copper metal on the surface. The silvery sheen that these glasses can develop is due to the same process occurring with zinc.

Robert
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  #11  
Old 2013-06-03, 2:41pm
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coming back to the original question, you are working your glass in a reducing atmosphere - work further out on the flame on a hothead. (also happens with dual fuel if you work in a reducing flame)
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  #12  
Old 2013-06-03, 4:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flame n fuse View Post
coming back to the original question, you are working your glass in a reducing atmosphere - work further out on the flame on a hothead. (also happens with dual fuel if you work in a reducing flame)
Yes, that is what you are supposed to do but please note that I wrote that it does not always work with propane. Far out in the flame, a lower flame, none of that makes a difference. Propylene never gave me a problem and I always got rich colors and clean transparents. I was telling the OP that if working further out doesn't help, then she needs to switch to propylene. Many times the artist working with the Hothead thinks it is something they are doing wrong, when in fact it is not. It is the use of propane instead of what is recommended for the HH. Which are brazing fuels, similar to Mapp Pro. Like propylene and Chemtaine. Propylene is widely available.

In some areas of the country, propane can be very dirty. Even so, it would not be a problem if working with an oxy/propane set-up. But for the HH, it can be sorely disappointing. Propylene from the local Airgas or welding shop and the BBQ tank of propane are like night and day.

To the OP - please don't give up on your HH until you have tried propylene!
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  #13  
Old 2013-06-10, 8:23pm
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I am thinking of switching. I the cost where I checked is going to be about 300.00 for the tank and the fuel. It is for a "25lb" the person said they do not actually have a 30lb. Thought that was a bit high, but really have not had a chance to check out other places. Not sure how long a "25lb" will last me on the HH. I have been having good luck with my propane so far. EXCEPT when I get in to big of a hurry and have the flame to high. I can burn up greens in a heartbeat!..
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  #14  
Old 2013-06-26, 9:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSimmons View Post
Actually the red color is from the fuel gas robbing oxygen from the copper oxide in the glass and precipitating crystalline copper metal on the surface. The silvery sheen that these glasses can develop is due to the same process occurring with zinc.

Robert
I think you mean the flame.
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  #15  
Old 2013-06-27, 12:25pm
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One thing nobody else has mentioned. If it's the flame that's orange before you put anything in it, turn it off, and check to see if there's a bit of glass in the head. It only takes one or 2 pieces to change the flame color. If there is, just flick it out with the end of a mandrel and you're good to go.

Nikki has a nice graphic on her website about where to work in the flame, but I work out even just a bit more. About an inch past the tip of the darkest part of the flame.
http://www.nlcbeads.com/articles.php?article=1

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  #16  
Old 2013-06-27, 1:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaGirlBT View Post
You are actually reducing the glass, causing the copper in it to come to the surface. Work farther out in the flame.
This. Soot is caused by being too close to the flame. I use propane exclusively on a HH for over 10 years. It's not the propane.
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  #17  
Old 2013-07-01, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird View Post
I think you mean the flame.
I mean the fuel gas in the flame, the flame is combination of fuel gas and oxygen. With a HH you have only atmospheric oxygen to combine with whichever fuel gas you are using and the flame tends to be in the 'reducing' zone. Under 'reducing' conditions your have more fuel gas than the available oxygen can bind with. At working temps the copper oxide colorant will release it's oxygen which in turn combines with the fuel gas and leaves copper behind. This doesn't occur when you have an excess of oxygen for the fuel gas. The metallic grey sheen is the same effect with zinc oxide, also present in many of these glasses. Soot is black and is excess carbon left behind by seriously incomplete combustion of the fuel gas.

Robert
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  #18  
Old 2013-07-01, 12:13pm
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Default Cost Comparison....

If it's going to cost $300 for the tank and gas, it would be my suggestion to upgrade your torch and go with oxygen/propane - the oxygen should be a ton cheaper than what they are estimating and will offset the cost of the torch, etc.
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  #19  
Old 2013-07-01, 12:22pm
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The cost comparison is a good one, also you will save a TON on propane as a tank lasts so much longer.

Otherwise, it sounds like one of those things to manage with a hot head. What an annoying problem. Hopefully you can work it out.
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  #20  
Old 2013-07-01, 4:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSimmons View Post
I mean the fuel gas in the flame, the flame is combination of fuel gas and oxygen. With a HH you have only atmospheric oxygen to combine with whichever fuel gas you are using and the flame tends to be in the 'reducing' zone. Under 'reducing' conditions your have more fuel gas than the available oxygen can bind with. At working temps the copper oxide colorant will release it's oxygen which in turn combines with the fuel gas and leaves copper behind. This doesn't occur when you have an excess of oxygen for the fuel gas. The metallic grey sheen is the same effect with zinc oxide, also present in many of these glasses. Soot is black and is excess carbon left behind by seriously incomplete combustion of the fuel gas.

Robert
I think you mean enough ox
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  #21  
Old 2013-07-02, 5:31am
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I think you mean enough ox
??

Robert
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  #22  
Old 2013-08-27, 9:28pm
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Thanks for all this advice. I am using a hot head with map gas & my greens are turning brown, pinks turning grey & whites & beige's look like the have strings of soot in them. It is really ruining a lot of my work. I have been working right outside of the blue flame, I thought that was the area to use. I have only been doing this for 9 weeks but I am loving it. This just started happening a few weeks ago that's what I don't understand. It is usually when I get out a new tank. The first couple pieces I make get ruined by discoloration.
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Old 2013-08-27, 9:44pm
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Sounds like you may be burning the glass, and need to turn the flame down, or move out in the flame.
I have used a HH, but not often. Try reading NLC's blog great tips for working on a Hot Head to see if something there helps?

http://www.nlcbeads.com/articles.php?article=1
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Old 2013-08-27, 9:55pm
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Here is a thread with some good information:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ot*+Head+flame
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Old 2013-08-28, 9:32pm
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Thanks Eileen that really helped me.
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Old 2013-08-28, 9:47pm
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Good, I'm glad!
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Old 2013-08-29, 11:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elinor View Post
Hi guys;

I'm using a hothead on propane with very few problems over the last few years, but I'm having a weird problem with discoloration. I drain my line regularly, but sometimes the torch flame is very orange tinged and sooty no matter how far I turn it up or down. When it does that, my blue and green glasses get a red surface film after exposure to the flame, and all the colors get greyish.

I suspect it might be a reaction to the stink chemical in the propane, but I've had the tank purged several times, swapped lines, and changed torches, and the problem keeps coming back. The only constant denominator is that it gets worse as the tank gets emptier. Anyone else had this problem?

~Elinor

FWIW, the stink chemical is called mercaptan. And it's typically one part per million in measured amounts. You literally are at 99.9% everything else, .1% stinky. The chemical will never have a reaction to glass. I work in the mercaptan industry.

Last edited by SGA; 2013-08-29 at 11:23am.
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  #28  
Old 2013-08-29, 2:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSimmons View Post
I mean the fuel gas in the flame, the flame is combination of fuel gas and oxygen. With a HH you have only atmospheric oxygen to combine with whichever fuel gas you are using and the flame tends to be in the 'reducing' zone. Under 'reducing' conditions your have more fuel gas than the available oxygen can bind with. At working temps the copper oxide colorant will release it's oxygen which in turn combines with the fuel gas and leaves copper behind. This doesn't occur when you have an excess of oxygen for the fuel gas. The metallic grey sheen is the same effect with zinc oxide, also present in many of these glasses. Soot is black and is excess carbon left behind by seriously incomplete combustion of the fuel gas.

Robert
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird View Post
I think you mean enough ox
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSimmons View Post
??

Robert
I *think* she is commenting on your phrase "an excess of oxygen for the fuel gas" and saying that it should be "enough" oxygen, instead of an excess of oxygen. Maybe?

At any rate, I think what you have here is correct about the reduction and the soot.

The atmosphere further out in the Hot Head flame is less reducing and will lessen the soot, but it will still be tricky to work some colors. The sweet spot I used on the Hot Head was about one inch out from the big inner cone in the flame. If you are reducing stuff at that spot, work a little further out. Don't go too far out, or the flame will be too cool.

It has been my experience with the copper colors that they reduce to the red/orange and if they are overheated, especially in an oxidizing flame, but with a hot neutral, too, they can boil and get a little scummy with bubbles popping and sparking on the surface.
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  #29  
Old 2014-09-07, 5:48pm
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I know this is an old thread, but I didn't want to start a new one for what seems like the same issue.

I'm new to lampwork, have a Firework torch. After emptying several MAP Pro 1# canisters, I decided to try propane because it was cheap. Wow, I really hate it. Aside from decoloration and it feeling a lot colder (unless I turn it up a bunch and get dirty beads), something else "feels" different. I'm getting a lot more devitrification I think. Matte finish or pitting. Almost like the heat is as hot but MUCH narrower.

I wish I had a way to measure the shape and temperature of the flame. Really curious.
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Old 2014-09-07, 5:59pm
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Some very good lampworkers use a BBQ propane tank with a HotHead, don't know if anyone has tried it with the Fireworks torch. Some use a low flow regulator with their tank & HH too, to get more control over the flame.

Happy experimenting!
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