Boro questions re mandrels and annealing

[Elizabeth Beads]

I did my first ever boro torch session yesterday. Is there a way to avoid burning through 3/32 mandrels if I want to make round beads? I am on a Scorpion and a Regalia.

Also, can I make boro beads along with my soft glass beads using a soft glass garaging and annealing schedule and run the boro through a batch anneal boro program later?

Thanks for whatever advice you can give me!

Liz

[SassyGlass9]

Hi Elizabeth! I am on a Cheetah with two EX-15's so similar set up to yours.
I just barely started dipping my toes in the boro waters (they're skeery - I think there are sharks in there!!)

I find that if I get the first wrap of glass super hot, I can get a decent footprint on the mandrel without burning through my mandrel. Of course, I am using 3/32 -if someone was using 1/16 I don't know if there is any way to avoid burning through something that tiny!

I also do soft, and there is a thread here in the boro room that has tons of good information on what temp to garage, anneal, etc. I will find it and come back and add it to this post.

I would say it's best not to try to do boro and soft in the same session unless you 1) are making mostly sturdy, lentil or tube beads in soft that can withstand being garaged at higher temps without losing their shape, or 2) do your boro first and when you are starting the ramp down to your normal soft glass garaging temp, you can then do soft and ramp down from there when you are done torching.

ETA: Here's the link to my thread that has some great advice from people who know boro!! http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=223746

[SassyGlass9]

Another quick thought - I am learning that boro glasses are much like our soft silver glasses - a lot of them like a certain flame chemistry and more important, a lot of them need to be garaged at different temps in order to get the desired colors from them.

So - if you are having to garage a certain boro color at, say, 1150 in order to get the color you want from the glass, I am pretty sure no soft glass could withstand that temp without losing it's form! But again, if you wait until the ramp down to say 960 when you are done playing with the boro, you could then safely do some soft glass work while holding at 960 until you were done.

I am still trying to figure out a safe ramp down schedule for my kiln for boro. If and when I get that figured out I will be sure to post it!

[Elizabeth Beads]

Thanks Rene'! I have been reading and studying the posts. Here are the results of my first foray over to the dark side, please, no laughing out loud, I am sensitive.

[SassyGlass9]

Wow, Elizabeth! Those are gorgeous!!!! MUCH nicer than my pitiful first attempts.

The funny thing is, I kept hearing how boro is easier because it's less shocky, etc. But I actually found it harder to work with. Of course, I was trying to make marbles and shaping it was harder due to the stiffer glass (and total user error).

[MagpieGlass]

The trick on the mandrels is to keep them above or below the flame and just heat the glass. Shaping is slow because it just doesn't move like soft glass. And what would be drip off your mandrel glow in soft is barely pick up frit in boro ... have to totally relean the whole "reading the glow" thing.

Also ... auralens sells "almost indestructible" mandrels ... I just bought some of their super skinny ones ... haven't tried them yet. Here is the link: http://www.auralens.net/c/1/almost-i...table-mandrels

Elizabeth ... they look great for your first outting. I really like the center grouping ... lots of nice colors. And lovely pinks and purples in the hearts that many people struggle with!!

Also ... I work both on many sessions ... I start with boro (usually just beads) and then step down to soft. If I'm doing pendants (they require longer soak and annealing times because of size that is a stand alone session) then step into my regular annealing program.

I don't know of any reason you can't just do a full anneal later if that is what you want. I've read people that just set the work aside and let is air cool and then anneal later. Boro isn't as shocky because it takes it longer to heat up and likewise longer to cool down.

Word of caution ... be careful picking up freshly made stringers or rods that haven't been out of the flame "for a long time" ... what would be cool to the touch in soft glass will still burn the bejezus out of you in boro. (ask me how I know )

[MagpieGlass]

Originally Posted by SassyGlass9

...snip ... So - if you are having to garage a certain boro color at, say, 1150 in order to get the color you want from the glass, I am pretty sure no soft glass could withstand that temp without losing it's form!

Hee hee. Even 1065 is too hot for soft glass (104) I had some StrikingColor beads that I didn't like the color ... so I've left them in the kiln through several sessions ... I left them in for my most recent boro pendant/paperweight session and some of them stuck together. oooopps.

I still didn't like the color so no great loss ... into the trash they went ... but lesson learned!!

I don't have the exact figures at home (studio is off site) but I garage at 1050 (if I'm not trying to strike something like TAG Mai Tai Pink) and hold for say 9 hours ... I do my boro work and then hit skip step and start the to step down to 960 at say 200 an hour (I think) ... I take lunch ... bathroom break, etc and clean up the studio while the kiln ramps down. It then holds that temp for say another 9 hours ... when I'm all done for the day I hit skip step again and then it holds at 960 for 45 minutes and then slowly ramps down to 850 then 750 and then off!!

Pendant work I garage at 1050 and anneal at 1065 for 2 hours ... you can boost that up if you are using Mai Tai Pink and want to get the pinks/purples 1150 to 1200 works nice.

Hope that's helpful.

[Elizabeth Beads]

Thanks! I think I will try working the boro with soft and running a full anneal cycle later. I had trouble with the heat being put out from the kiln every time I put in a bead, after all, summer in my Texas garage doesn't need any extra heat! I am only planning to make beads for now. I want to learn to do implosions eventually, for now I just want to learn the colors.

I actually have some of the Auralens mandrels stashed away. I will pull them out for my next session. I'll have to figure out a way to keep them separate for boro.

[torchgirl]

The indestructable mandrels in Laura's link above are GREAT, I use them and suggest you try them. Did burn through one but I had it in the flame way too close and too long. I keep the top half of the bead in the flame and the mandrel just under flame when I'm closer to the torch face and when the outside glass melted I move further back from the face and put whole bead in to round out.

Your beads are wonderful for just starting. Please consider purchasing Brent Graber's Boro Hearts DVD. It's fantasic and you'll learn a lot.

Here are some of my bead sets. Good luck, it's fun playing with the color combinations.

[framerak]

Am I the only one who wants to lick the 2nd set on the right in Torchgirl's photo? Beautiful sets!

[Bunyip]

I'm a mandrel slayer.

So I just eliminate the mandrel

Very well done, particularly for a first attempt. Keep up the good work!

[AuntD]

Originally Posted by MagpieGlass

I've read people that just set the work aside and let is air cool and then anneal later.

Yikes! I wouldn't do this to anything I really liked and wanted to keep. I've had boro shock before when I didn't get it into the kiln fast enough. Unless you're one of those magic people who can anneal in the flame, this is probably not your best option. Boro is less shocky than soft glass, but it's still glass.

Also -- beautiful work!

[Elizabeth Beads]

Thanks all. Now I am jonesing to torch and try again, and do the soft schedule followed by a batch anneal. Tomorrow I hope!

[torchgirl]

Thank you Angela. It was a wizard stick from GA called Tahitian sunset. I think it's persimmon strike over white but they do it in a furnace and it was a fat rod. I pulled to 4 mm stringer to make the beads.

[Cornbread]

i mostly skimmed through this, but here could be a layout for your day when doing both soft and boro. (assuming you're spending more than a couple hours in the evening out there).

morning, get up and get the kiln to 960...boro away. go to lunch and run it to 1050(or up to strike [1075-1085]for 45 min extra) for 45 min or so if they are small beads...then ramp it down to your soft glass temp and finish the day...you can strike at each cycle without affecting the other too.

another note: I never run my rods through the kiln if i can avoid it (i have top loading kiln so my whole bead and mandrel are in there) I fiber blanket cool..remove in water and run in a cycle over night or the next day. I'm mostly off mandrel so this is never really a problem for me in being efficient

[Conrad Hoffman]

I cheat. The welding shop sells thin tungsten electrodes that you'll never melt or burn. They do conduct heat like crazy, so you need a holder. I use a piece of stainless steel rod with a hole in the end and a small screw to fasten the electrode.

[alb6094]

Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman

I cheat. The welding shop sells thin tungsten electrodes that you'll never melt or burn. They do conduct heat like crazy, so you need a holder. I use a piece of stainless steel rod with a hole in the end and a small screw to fasten the electrode.

Conrad, what do you ask for at the welding shop? Just tungsten electrodes? Do they come in just one size? I have a holder like you're talking about already and those sound like such a good idea.

[Bunyip]

Make sure you get the pure tungsten, not the doped tungsten. Typically the ends are painted green.

[alb6094]

Originally Posted by Bunyip

Make sure you get the pure tungsten, not the doped tungsten. Typically the ends are painted green.

OK Chris, thank you!

I've started playing but ya'll don't even want to see first attempts. I'm not one of those lampworkers who gets things right away so it's going to be awhile before I get decent boro stuff but it's fun! TOTALLY different animal IMO, it's almost like starting over. I've got all three 'Contemporary Lampworking' books and I'm just starting at the beginning and working my way through.

[Dasi]

Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman

I cheat. The welding shop sells thin tungsten electrodes that you'll never melt or burn. They do conduct heat like crazy, so you need a holder. I use a piece of stainless steel rod with a hole in the end and a small screw to fasten the electrode.

Does the tungsten fume the beads a little? Plus, I thought breathing burning tungsten is not healthy, ventilation or not????.....

[Bunyip]

Hmm. Good question. I know tungsten can take a LOT of heat before it begins fuming, though.

[Role]

Originally Posted by Dasi

Does the tungsten fume the beads a little? Plus, I thought breathing burning tungsten is not healthy, ventilation or not????.....

Tungsten does not vaporize until it hits approximately 6000 degrees.
Your torch cannot get that hot.

[Dasi]

Originally Posted by Role

Tungsten does not vaporize until it hits approximately 6000 degrees.
Your torch cannot get that hot.

I have seen Loren Stump manipulate tungsten picks by burning them. He puts curves in them and pulls the ends to points. Smokes like an SOB. I know it can be done. I have seen and smelled it. Dark yellow smoke.... hard to breath even with ventilation... Besides, I have seen it fume a boro piece many times when beginners are reaming holes in a piece.

[Dasi]

Originally Posted by Bunyip

Hmm. Good question. I know tungsten can take a LOT of heat before it begins fuming, though.

I know you work off mandrel. I am concerned for beginners using tungsten for mandrels.

With beads, you keep the mandrel in the flame for extended periods of time or just below the flame once you gain that control. Those mandrels get very hot when you use a hard color like blue moon. It Takes a lot of heat to round some colors on a mandrel.
I am just worried about recommending something, especially to beginners that stick that mandrel directly in the flame while trying to master the skill of rounding up a bead in the flame.

[Bunyip]

I agree - this is a "use with caution" scenario. I would never suggest putting tungsten directly in the flame unless you know exactly what you're doing and have good ventilation. I used to do a lot of tungsten drilling, and it can take heat that would kill 3/32 mandrels without fuming. Misjudge, however, and you WILL get fuming and yellowish scum on the tungsten which will transfer to the glass on contact.

Have you tried coating a tungsten pick in release and making a bead or 2? That might settle these concerns empirically. I'd do it but I am TERRIBLE at boro beads.

[Elizabeth Beads]

I'd think the bead release would make a good barrier and be safer than workingoff mandrel with tungsten.

Heather I am so glad you made that comment about blue moon. That may explain why my first try with amber purple and clear was more successful. I gave up after my second boro try because I can make a soft glass bead 10 times faster and just as pretty.

I'll try again sometime, maybe with 1/8 or bigger mandrels until I get the hang of it.

[LarryC]

Originally Posted by Role

Tungsten does not vaporize until it hits approximately 6000 degrees.
Your torch cannot get that hot.

I have completely vaporized the ends of tungsten picks in the hotshop by uisng them to poke holes. We use oxy propane torches to pre heat Tungsten picks. According to theory, this should never happen. Sometimes the theory does not align completely with the reality.

[Role]

Originally Posted by LarryC

I have completely vaporized the ends of tungsten picks in the hotshop by uisng them to poke holes. We use oxy propane torches to pre heat Tungsten picks. According to theory, this should never happen. Sometimes the theory does not align completely with the reality.

Those have to be alloys.

Pure Tungsten does not melt or vaporize until 6000F.

Addendum:

I know a material scientist that worked on nuclear weapons.
I sent him an e-mail and if he says tungsten will vaporize
below the melting point then I am all wet.

[Role]

Originally Posted by Dasi

I have seen Loren Stump manipulate tungsten picks by burning them. He puts curves in them and pulls the ends to points. Smokes like an SOB. I know it can be done. I have seen and smelled it. Dark yellow smoke.... hard to breath even with ventilation... Besides, I have seen it fume a boro piece many times when beginners are reaming holes in a piece.

Alloys contain other metals.

Pure Tungsten does not melt until 6000 degrees.

[Role]

There is a new twist on this you all may want to pay attention to.

My material scientist acquaintance, who is literally a brainiac super genius,
says that tungsten alloys are strengthened with THORIUM OXIDE...

BAD, BAD, BAD...

REALLY...

BAD...

Thorium oxide is a radioactive material.

If it is being vaporized and inhaled trouble is sure to follow.

He says that pure tungsten can only be vaporized with an O2/Propane
torch if it is a very fine wire.

If you are using a tungsten alloy and it is vaporizing I would STRONGLY
suggest either stopping or using a supplied fresh air system.
$500.00 for a supplied air system is nothing if you value your life.