Upgrading from a HH questions

[Listenup]

Thanks Gail and Luna. I knew there had to be a reason, just didn't know what it was.

[NMLinda]

Originally Posted by metalbone

Linda, I think Nortel makes a great torch and that they are good quality, not pieces of junk at all (they are like timex watches, takes lickin and keep on tickin). I didn't at all mean to imply that minors are junk, sorry for a confusing post.

I suppose there are all sorts of things that can happen, and the fact that a flashback made it back to your arrestor with a surface mix means that maybe the risk is greater than I think and it is better to play it safe for a few dollars.

Thanks, metalbone!

I think your descriptions on how gases can go the wrong way in a torch and cause problems are valuable, like Kimberly's, so I'm glad you took the time to post. It's really helpful to have that knowledge out in our community, so I personally appreciate your contribution.

Gelly - forgot to suggest this to you earlier, but after re-reading your first post, you might want to get James Kervin's book "More than you ever wanted to know about glass beadmaking". Just about all of the vendors who carry books also carry this one. It's one of the best overall books for beadmaking, in my opinion, and has great sections on safety and how to set up a studio. I found the photos very helpful in answering many of my questions when I upgraded from a HH. I've had my copy for years, and still pull it out from time to time - it's a wonderful reference book. Don't stop asking questions here, of course!

Linda

[redrabbit]

I'm bumping this back up to the top. This has been a very valuable thread for me, as I'm currently on a HH with a Cricket in the mail. I'm sure there's others in my position and could use the information.

[ewdb]

Originally Posted by Gelly

I'm seriously thinking about finally upgrading from my HH. I don't have the funds right now, but I never will if I don't start saving for it! In order to start, I need to know how much $$ to save.

I really thought I wanted a mini cc, but I think I've changed my mind and will go with a cricket. So, my question is... what do I need to buy besides a torch and oxycon? I already have bulk propane, so I don't need that.

I'd like specifics please!!

What are the hoses called that I will need? Regulator? Flash back thingie? Anything else?

Please keep in mind... I've only worked on my HH and I've NEVER seen any other set up before in person. I really don't know what the hell I'm doing.

TIA!!

LOL, i was in the same boat as you last fall when my HH finally died - i considered a Cricket, the Mini CC and a few other torches but finally went for the Mega Minor instead mostly because it was easier to get in Canada but also because most of the long time beadmakers i asked recommended Nortel torches. Nortel sold me the whole setup (torch, hoses, oxycon, etc.) so i didn't have to buy anything extra except the 5lb propane tank. I think i paid around $5-600 total for:

Mega Minor torch
Devilbiss 5lpm oxycon
oxy & propane hoses
propane regulator

i didn't buy flashback arrestors as Nortel said they weren't necessary for my particular torch but the more i read about them the more i think i'll buy some as a precaution anyway.

If you can, i'd recommend getting out to someone's studio to try a torch or two and ask for help (if possible) with the initial setup. I'd never used a dual fuel torch before so it made all the difference for me when i was deciding - the setup and working style is very, very different from a HH and i was initially pretty nervous with it. I had another local beadmaker with 10+ years of experience come and set everything up for me because even after having it explained several times i really didn't understand fully how to hook things up and correctly turn everything on and off. Once i watched him it was a bit more clear but i don't think i could have done it on my own even with the instructions i received with purchase.

in terms of the torch, most of my work is sculptural as well and i've been very happy with the Mega - it has a nice, soft flame which is less intense and wider than the regular Minor i tried and gives off lots of radiant heat making it great for sculpting. I even preheat my shorter rods by leaving them on the table just under the torch head. (I can't speak to the Cricket as i haven't tried it but it seems to have lots of happy owners.)

I found there was a HUGE learning curve moving from the HH to the Mega and it took me several months (i only torch part time) to get used to the differences in working styles and figuring out flame chemistry. Once i did though i was working 3-5x faster but there are still some HH techniques i can't replicate. And i still miss my HH enough to occasionnally pull it out and use it.

Only thing i'd change is oxycon: i bought a 5lpm unit and then found out later the Mega is only @ 60-70% power on it which is fine for beads under 3" but i'm wanting to work well over that now and want a wider flame for more radiant heat. I tried the Mega on tanked oxy this spring and the flame was more what i wanted: hot, clean and wider but not so intense that it overmelts fine detail. This fall i plan to upgrade my oxycon to an 8-10lpm unit so i can run the Mega at full capacity and (hopefully) make bigger beads. AIG has this excellent reference page which lists the oxycon level requirements for various torches: http://artistryinglass.on.ca/charts/...ortorches.html

Hope this helps! I have pics on my site and on flickr of both my old and new setup. My work advanced quite a bit with the new torch so it'll be fun to see what happens to your piggies with a much hotter torch.

[deirdreschaneman]

I've had my mega minor burner for over a year -- it's problem free, easy to use and maintain and I love it!

[lunamoonshadow]

That's the beauty of the cricket--it's designed to run on only one oxycon!
(and why I chose it over the mini cc--I adore the mini cc--it runs very nicely on 2 oxycons & a total dream on tanked oxy, but....on one oxycon, the cricket outdoes it all the way & will even melt a bit of boro & on 2 oxycons the cricket will melt small boro amazingly well!)

[Elizabeth Beads]

Hey Gelly - I called and ordered my torch and hoses from Sundance and they were extremely helpful on the phone. They told me I did not need a flashback arrestor with a Mega Minor because it is a surface mix. Since they were losing money by not selling me one, I believed them. Same thing for not needing a regulator on my oxycon.

Another thing I like about the Nortel is that you have screw on connections, not barbs and clamps, which is convenient and simple. It's also extremely quiet. I tried a Cricket at Open Torch at the Gathering and thought it was much noisier.

I light my propane first, then bring in the oxy, and when I shut down, I turn off the propane at the tank and bleed the hose (very important to remember this). Then I power off the oxycon. I almost always leave my oxy valve open, the only time I shut it is when I light my propane.

Hang on to your hothead. My first oxycon had to go back to UO and spent a month in Indiana before a replacement came. I was grateful to have the hothead while I waited.

You will be so happy you did this. Nothing wrong with a HH if you can't set up a fuel-oxy torch, you can make lovely beads on it, and if someone just prefers it, that is fine too.



Liz

[NMLinda]

Liz - Given my own experience of actually having a flashback on a surface-mix torch, a minor, I would be cautious about Sundance's recommendation. Many well-intended folks simply repeat what they've heard from others, but may not be aware of incidents like mine.

Here's something JoDeM posted over in the Torch section about the need for flashback arrestors:

"from Safety and Health Fact Sheet No. 28 April 2005
© 2005 American Welding Society

Quote:
A flashback is a momentary or sustained retrogression of the flame upstream of the mixer usually in the torch or hoses. This is a potentially hazardous situation, particularly if the flame reaches the hoses where an explosion will result causing a rupture or separation of the hose. A flashback is generally caused by the reverse flow of gases upstream into the hoses or other equipment. This reverse flow is usually the result of 1) improper shutdown and/or startup procedures or 2) by allowing cylinder pressures to become too low or 3) by a check valve that is not working properly."

If you choose not to use flashback arrestors, you take a calculated risk that either 1), 2), or 3) in the above quote won't happen to you. I think I caused mine via 2), above.

If you're better at remembering to check things than I was, and are absolutely certain about both the initial and long term quality of your torch, then you might never realize the risk of a flashback like I did. Some other things to consider are the fact that high quality manufacturers like Nortel can hardly be expected to produce year over year with zero defects. The probability that you would get a torch with a problem is small, but not zero. Also, if you accidentally get glass in a port, or get carbon build up in some odd way, you could perhaps unbalance the gas flows that metalbone so elegantly described in a way that might cause a flashback.

Another LE member posted about a pretty serious flashback that shredded hoses and sent everyone running for safety. It appeared that he didn't have flashback arrestors.

Whether you believe you will have a flashback event or not is kind of like playing Russian Roulette in my mind: I've already gotten unlucky once, myself, as did this other LE member, so I choose not to be a gambling gal on this front.

I hope that knowing both sides of the story is useful towards making a more informed decision about your own personal safety.

Linda

[Sundance Glass]

I'm not sure what employee told you, you do not need Flash Backs, but they are wrong, and right. It is not NEEDED for a complete setup, but it is NEEDED for safety. It's basically do you want the safety of the flash backs or not? And to add on to the post that I am putting a link to (for stories of no flashbacks) we have now experienced a burnback/flashback with a comprimised line (small puncture lit and panic led to a quick shut off where the flame back fed, and was stopped by a flashback arrestor). It does not matter if you are surface mix or premix for your torch, accidents can happen.

http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112413

[Elizabeth Beads]

Yikes. Guess I am going to be ordering a flashback arrestor. Liz