Propane alone?...

[sugarenie]

Is it true that you can use your Propane BBQ tank with a Hot Head Torch?...I thought you had to mix Propane with Oxygen and the Hot Head Torch must use MAPP gas...Please advise...I am a newbie to lampworking...Someone online gave me this information and it just doesn't seem right...Thanks... [/font]

[bhhco]

Yes you can. It depends on the quality of the propane, which varies... sometimes it varies a lot and is terrible to use. If it is, then you need to use a enhanced fuel (propane with special additives), or propylene. Note: If you use a two-gas torch, even terrible propane will work without a problem, like you said, propane is normally used with oxygen... and that makes a world of difference.

I sense you might be thinking about doing it if it's possible, so I'll be the one to state the "downsides" to something that initially sounds so great. Others will probably trounce on me and they can tell you all the great parts.

It requires a special hose and connectors and a number of special safety considerations that must really be understood before you undertake what is commonly referred to as using a "bulk tank". There are much more to understand about safety with a "bulk tank", than using a 1# canister.

There are problems that occur when a hose is placed between the one-gas torch and it's source of fuel. Mostly the fuel or the torch gets blamed, when it's really neither. You will be disconnecting the hose after each session and drain it. And periodically it will get gunked up and need to be replaced. Sometimes the HH will get gunked and you will have to replace it too, sometimes it will clean out with a 1# MAPP canister run.

That's enough for now. Equal time to the good side

Me

[sugarenie]

Thanks for your information...I have decided to start with the hothead and the 1# MAPP canister...After my first 100 beads I will then figure out what to do...Thanks again...

[juniemoon]

i started out with a hot head and a one pound of mapp, did that for about ten cannisters and bill brach talked me into twisting on a one pound can of propane at a cost of a buck and change. never went back to mapp. graduated to a b b q tank and hose. did that for many a beautiful bead. my suggestion is to try a one pound camping can of propane and be your own judge. its a lot of fun!!

[Doolollies]

Many Many people use a hot head with large BBQ propane tank. Many drop dead gorgeous beads are made on a hothead. On the other hand safety issues to consider are where your set up is. Upstairs? Ground floor ? Basement? Garage? Porch? Tank must be outside your work area no matter where you torch. How long does it take to reach your tank shut off? Must remember that you are bringing in ***gas under tank pressure***. You cannot regulate tank pressure with a hothead torch. If you have a break in your hose and you are indoors or in your basement you may have your tank empty into your work space before you can get to it to shut it off. Propane is heavy and pools and does not dissipate easily or quickly. Do you have pilot lights and or sources of ignition close by? You have to be more than diligent in safety issues with this setup if you are indoors. Great for outdoors on open porch patio etc. but indoors if you use this take extra consideration to what your emergency plan will be if you have a leak or perhaps have an issue with your hose in your studio. Of course it goes without saying that ANY set up must have emergency plan and considerations for safety and proper set up with ventilation protecting your hose to your torch from burns cuts wear etc. etc. The hothead (which I used for years and still use from time to time and love) was designed I believe to run with 1 pound MAPP cannisters not a direct hose line. When I break out my hot head I still use the 1 pound cannisters of MAPP. There are some that say NO MATTER WHAT... do NOT torch on a hothead indoors with a BBQ tank under tank pressure. On a side note I had a 1 pound cannister of MAPP gas spring a leak on me 3 days after I torched on my hothead ...Came home from work and I was aghast and choked with gas. Stored my cannisters (by law you are allowed to store 2 1 pound cannisters indoors) in the basement. Torched a short while and took the cannister off the torch and took it to the basement. I was admonished on another glass board that the 1 pound cannisters should not be taken off the torch and stored. They should stay connected until empty. Well I still do disconnect the 1 pound cannisters BUT I store them outside now in case the valve does fail and they leak. SO I no longer store ANY fuel in the house. BE SAFE to have fun.
Linda

[sarabu]

Confused:
I thought the hothead DID regulate the tank pressure on it's own, and you don't need any additional regualtors.

And as an aside, are all the oxy/propane hookups for other torches OF COURSE using hard pipes and some other setup that makes the whole whoop of doom unleashed everytime a HH user asks a bulk fuel question unnecessary in their threads? I'm half terrified to torch on a bad day LOL. Seriously, I totally want to be safe, but each time I start to read about upgrading, I feel like I'm reading greek. Lpm, psi, green hose, red hose- man, those spendly little one pound canisters are cheap compared to the stress I well up with, scared I'm doing something wrong.

thanks for the clarification-
Sarah

[MikeAurelius]

Linda has it absolutely correct.

Sarah: Yes, the hothead does NOT need any additional regulators, in fact adding a regulator will usually result in a very unsatisfactory flame. The torch needs full tank pressure to operate at full functionality.

I'd like to say this about the whole bulk tank and hothead torch thing: I personally believe that this is about the most unsafe thing a lampworker can do. In fact, I'm just going to say it: I personally think that lampworkers should NOT use a bulk tank with a hothead torch. The risk far outweighs the rewards.

A puncture (or burn through) in a 100 PSI hose will empty a 20 pound BBQ tank in just a few minutes. You will not have time to get out to shut the tank down before the gas reaches explosive levels. Some folks will now respond with 'well, that's why I keep the tank right at my workstation'. And around and around we go. The bottom line is that it is illegal and unsafe to keep a bulk propane tank inside your house.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412

[sarabu]

Thanks for saying this over and over, I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I just want to understand. Any other torch other than a hothead that is using propane- what about their setup makes it safer? are their hoses better? I'm just getting comfortable with this whole beadmaking process, and the upgrading question is still confusing. And the 1# tanks are expensive. So, I upgrade to an oxy/propane torch, and I check my connections, and bleed off the gas at the torch- but what about that set-up is safer? The hose? The torch? I'm sorry, I'm sorry...
Sarah

[bhhco]

Originally Posted by sarabu

Thanks for saying this over and over, I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I just want to understand. Any other torch other than a hothead that is using propane- what about their setup makes it safer? are their hoses better? I'm just getting comfortable with this whole beadmaking process, and the upgrading question is still confusing. And the 1# tanks are expensive. So, I upgrade to an oxy/propane torch, and I check my connections, and bleed off the gas at the torch- but what about that set-up is safer? The hose? The torch? I'm sorry, I'm sorry...
Sarah

Hi Sarah,
This is confusing and you deserve a clear, convincing explantion. I'll try.

First, is the pressure.
Two-gas torches operate at safer pressure levels, usually less than 10 psi on propane. I say usually because some lampworkers like to run as high, as say, 25 psi. The two-gas torch hose is a standard welding hose, rated for 200 psi pressure. So you have a 8 to 1 (worst case) and 40 to 1 (best case) safety factor in the hose. Also, at the low psi, there is negligible hose degradation caused by the propane fuel.

One-gas torches operate at "tank pressure", which is usually between 100-180 psi for propane, and 130-240 psi for propylene. (Often the one-gas torch user prefers propylene). The "Best" LPG hose is rated for 350 psi. You can see the safety margin difference here... possibly 240 psi pressure in a 350 psi hose. Additionally, at these high pressures there is significant internal hose lining degradation caused by the fuel, especially propylene. (I'll PM you the study/report link). One also has to factor in that the Best hose is perforated and allows the migrating gas to "weep" through hose - intentionally. The lesser quality hose does not, and can develop "bubbles" in the outer layer that will rupture, releasing the fuel gas.

Now, I must grant that while I have stated "the max working pressures" for these hoses, the hoses are suppose to be designed for a minimum of two times the max working pressure. But one-gas LPG hose frequently sold to lampworkers is not made in the US - and I honestly question if there is full compliance with US standards - standards that US makers of two-gas torch welding hose must meet and maintain continuous factory test records. Finally, the LPG hose is made not for lampwork torches, but for patio heaters, weed burners, roof tarring, and BBQ deep fryers - these are all outside tasks, where hose failure would have least impact.

So, what makes me cautious is, the LPG hose is being used near it's maximum working pressure, while simultaneously being degraded by the fuel, and it often passes into an interior living envrionment.

I too appreciate the one-gas torch's capability. When used with 1# canisters it's really, IMHO, quite a safe system and an excellent lampwork torch. But, when a hose is placed between the torch and the fuel, a completely new, very complex interface has been added, that brings with it significant safety concerns (not to mention functional use problems, like draining).

I said that was "first", but I think I've taken up so much posting space that I'll skip "second", and leave room for others.

Me

[MikeAurelius]

Sarah - re-read the last paragraph of my previous post. That is the main reason for not using bulk tanks with hot head torches.

Personally "Me", I'm not so concerned about the pressure ratings on the hoses. I've yet to see a hose fail, but I've seen plenty of fittings on hoses fail.

As I stated above, the overriding issue is that the propane is under high pressure in the hose, and a puncture will cause the tank to empty very quickly, and probably reaching explosive concentration within seconds (it only takes about 1.3 to 2.0% concentration of propane for it to explode in normal room air with a spark).

[sarabu]

ok, I'm getting it- it's the pressure, and secondarily, the potential of substandard hoses.
The hoses for the *other* torches, if compromised, would leak at a rate that you could probably turn off the gas before reaching boom potential. They are regulated inside and outside, so that's the backup?
Thank you very much.
Sarah

[MikeAurelius]

You are correct, Sarah.