Lampwork Etc.
 
TrueDesign

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


Donate via PayPal to donate@lampworketc.com

Beads of Courage


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Safety

Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Should there be a "Glassworking student's Bill of Rights"?
Lofty goals to be sure, but who is going to enforce them? 63 51.22%
Amen Brotha!! It's about damn time!! 37 30.08%
Who care? I just want to learn!! 13 10.57%
Huh? Students have rights? Since when? 10 8.13%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #121  
Old 2008-02-23, 2:34pm
Norskiglass's Avatar
Norskiglass Norskiglass is offline
William Hagy
 
Join Date: Jan 13, 2007
Location: Spokane,WA
Posts: 415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
I think the idea of certification is great, however in practice, how does it happen? ........ I also think it's equally important to educate the students as to what to look for when seeking a class.
Great post! It is a touchy subject is it not? I had recently spoken with a furnace worker of 35+yrs inquiring about teaching here in the studio and his reply was simple ~"over the years I have gotten tired of repeating myself 10 times and people not getting it" so advance yes! ~Intro NO.

I was at first shocked then we both had a good laugh. It seems to me what makes a good teacher is not just what the student performs in class more of what the student retains years down the road. In this world of "instant gratification" many people want it now and not a second later. I had a student trying at best to make a goblet in class that would compare or more less ~out class one of my own......techniques,practice,regions of the flame,flame settings, all went out the window in this particular students eyes they set expectations so high that if he/she did not leave the class making a better goblet than the instructor ~the instructor was not performing or more less instructing properly.

Educating students on what to look for in a class to best benefit them in the long run as well as the here and now is a great point to have made Pam.... however there is so much that goes into "what makes an instructor a good one" as there is so much that goes behind that overall.

Has the instructor experienced trial and error in their own practice to ensure problem solving for the student(s) in class?

Does the instructor spend more time endorsing products and equipment during class than actual artistic expression and or creativity?

How does the instructor communicate during demonstrations as well as coaching students as they work.

How does the instructor perform during classes within the time outlined in the class description.

Has the instructor been faced with issues such as actual health and safety issues or have the just read about them?

What kind of instructor can give advice on innovation,creativity,self- expression,tradition,history, as well as contemporary work in the marketplace when needed and remain collected when a majority of student would like to move and shape hot glass and have fun.......?

The list goes on and yet the question remains:

Student rights to fair and competent instruction in a safe environment.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


50mm & 40mm Herbert Arnold Zenit Burners,Carlisle cc/cc+/mini,Liquid O2.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 2008-02-23, 3:41pm
pam's Avatar
pam pam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
Default

"...the question remains:

Student rights to fair and competent instruction in a safe environment."

And can that be assured by anyone in any walk of life? We find totally incompetent teachers in schools, even criminals. No one gets a guarantee. You have to do your homework and hope for a great outcome. I would love to be able to guarantee every student of flameworking a perfect experience, but that isn't possible. The best we can do is educate, educate, educate, and hope all the education gets passed down and that everyone benefits.
__________________
Pam

"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Blog
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 2008-02-23, 6:40pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Studio certification is about the easiest thing we have discussed over the past couple of days.

National Building Code and National Fire Code as well as rules as adopted by towns, cities and states cover about 99.9999% of what we do, including ventilation, propane use and storage, fire extinguishers, etc.

If every single studio will submit to an inspection by their local building inspector, with a set of requirements, and they pass the inspection with no red flags or fix-its, then they pass for a year. Next year, do it again.

Nothing that has been suggested is outside of the National Building Codes or the NFPA. It's all there in black and white. Nothing left to the imagination, nothing extraordinary called for. Pam, I suggest you e-mail Vince and ask him if what I'm suggesting is far fetched. My bet is that he will agree with me.

The studio certification process should come first. That will almost assuredly guarantee a safe teaching environment.

And I have to wonder why you are putting up so many barriers to getting a certification process for teachers. As a teacher yourself, are you perhaps, afraid?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 2008-02-23, 6:45pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Do we want to be in the business of policing flameworkers? Do we issue a warrant for arrest should a person teach a class in a place that does not live up to whatever standards are established? I think having standards for studios and instructors is important. I think educating those studios and instructors is important. I also think it's equally important to educate the students as to what to look for when seeking a class.
Why not? Part of the mission of the ISGB is to develop "best practices for education and studio safety." Where are they after all this time? Or is this one of the mission statements you all would prefer no one brought up?

No one has to be arrested, however, an unsafe studio SHOULD be shut down for violation of building codes and NFPA codes. And not re-opened until it meets those codes. There are plenty of studios that have spent a lot of money meeting those codes, why should the one's that don't get a free pass?

A list, like I've developed on my blog, The Hall of Shame, would go a long way towards putting pressure on the non-compliant studios to start investing in themselves.

If you think standards are important, then why isn't the ISGB deeply involved in getting those standards developed and encouraging studios around the country to adhere to them?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 2008-02-23, 7:03pm
Norskiglass's Avatar
Norskiglass Norskiglass is offline
William Hagy
 
Join Date: Jan 13, 2007
Location: Spokane,WA
Posts: 415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
HTML Code:
Why not? Part of the mission of the ISGB is to develop "best practices for education and studio safety." Where are they after all this time? Or is this one of the mission statements you all would prefer no one brought up?
~Interesting point there....
HTML Code:
There are plenty of studios that have spent a lot of money meeting those codes, why should the one's that don't get a free pass?
I'm sitting in one of those studios that spent and has APPROVED labels intact on the hard lines, ventilation professionally installed by an HVAC co......price tag? it really can be done right and it is worth it in the long run!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


50mm & 40mm Herbert Arnold Zenit Burners,Carlisle cc/cc+/mini,Liquid O2.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 2008-02-23, 11:09pm
Mark Parkinson's Avatar
Mark Parkinson Mark Parkinson is offline
hi ho hi ho its off to ..
 
Join Date: Oct 27, 2007
Location: Odessa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
If you think standards are important, then why isn't the ISGB deeply involved in getting those standards developed and encouraging studios around the country to adhere to them?
because the codes are there already, these studios can be shut down by building code violations or workplace safety. another layer of intervention is not needed all that is needed is the complaints voiced in the right places to activevate the system.

-and if I am not a member of ISGB or other "professional" governing body and do not wish to be governed by their rules how are you going to enforce it?

-in these days of internet awareness all the information is out there for people who are intrested in their safety to obtain the information and act on it if people after reading the safety guides that are out there now will not act in a safe maner no legeslation will do it ... people still will not wear seat belts and that has a more immeadiate effect on them.

-as for so called unsafe studios that teach I would be careful about listing thier names on your so called Hall of Shame ... unless you have personally inspected their locations and have the credentials and science to back it up you are messing with the livelyhood of several people thier employees and dependents ... with out proof that is slander and libel and if you said such things about me my lawyer would be living in your backpocket with your wallet for the rest of your life.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
People who call me weird think I should take it personally. if you really want to upset me you should call me normal !!!

on
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Mark Parkinson; 2008-02-23 at 11:12pm.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 2008-02-24, 1:33am
Rubiee's Avatar
Rubiee Rubiee is offline
Previously silverfaeriedesigns
 
Join Date: Aug 29, 2007
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 317
Default

I have to say something, because I want you all to know how much this thread means to me. I learned the very very basics (two hours) from a fellow lampworker with amazing ventilation and safety practices. She got me hooked and pointed me here. I set up my studio with proper ventilation etc and upon looking around the area for classes.... I found that one near by (I'm not naming names) seems to have a small room... with a high ceiling and an inline fan blowing out as their workspace/ventilation etc. The room is for 5 torches, it makes me nervous.
To me that's not proper ventilation. I've actually told my mom that we won't be taking a class there for that exact reason. It sucks, but I value my safety more than the low cost of a class (we're talking under $150).

Seeing this thread makes me feel a lot better about my decision as well

So thank you all, I read all 5 pages and I'll keep an eye on the growing thread too.
__________________
~* Melissa

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Nortel Minor with oxycon and NG
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 2008-02-24, 6:56am
beadsoncypress's Avatar
beadsoncypress beadsoncypress is offline
BeadsonCypress
 
Join Date: Jan 05, 2007
Location: Jersey Shore - by AC
Posts: 2,662
Default

A couple of thoughts. How many studios/schools would be members of ISGB if they enforced these rules? How many studios/schools do you think would volunarily ask a building code inspector to stop by and chek out their air quality. and one thing that as not even been mentioned (or that I have seen) have Insurance coverage should a student be harmed by any issue. The cost to cover these kinds of things is insane because there are so many things going on in a studio that can harm a student. Lastly, NEWBIE students don't even KNOW what ISGB is (nor care) they just want to learn to make glass beads!!! We are back to either the studio or the INSTRUCTOR to determine what is a safe environment!
__________________
Beads on Cypress (Susan Boyce)

7+ years and growing - Mini-CC and O2 generator
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 2008-02-24, 7:36am
Paul Ewing's Avatar
Paul Ewing Paul Ewing is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 12, 2006
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 917
Default

I would say that there is probably a good sized group of advanced students that do not know aboutproper safety measures. If they have taken their beginning and intermediate classes at a place that doesn't teach or practice proper safety measures then they probably don't know any other way. Saying that they should have found the information on the internet is a cop out in my opinion. The number of people that are active on the internet for more than occasional searching and some email is not really that large compared to the general population. You have to be fairly active on the glass forums to really get exposed to the information.
__________________
Paul Ewing

Torch Ho... GTT Mirage, Carlisle CC, GTT Cheetahs, GTT Lynxes, and others on tanked O2.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 2008-02-24, 3:18pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Parkinson View Post
-as for so called unsafe studios that teach I would be careful about listing thier names on your so called Hall of Shame ... unless you have personally inspected their locations and have the credentials and science to back it up you are messing with the livelyhood of several people thier employees and dependents ... with out proof that is slander and libel and if you said such things about me my lawyer would be living in your backpocket with your wallet for the rest of your life.
It is neither slander nor libel to list the name of a studio that does not have proper ventilation. It is neither slander nor libel to list the name of a studio that keeps 20# propane cannisters inside the building. Writing the truth is not slander, nor is it libel. It is merely the truth. It can be uncomfortable, even painful. But it does need to be heard. And as far as the livelihood of the employees and dependants, that's not my call, its the studio owners' as he/she is the one allowing the situation to take place in the first place. Place the responsibility where it belongs, on the studio owner.

These are all code violations AS YOU MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR LITTLE RANT, and as such, are valid statements to make to expose unsafe and improper practices. No attorney would take such a case. But be my guest! If you think you have a case, go ahead and contact an attorney.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 2008-02-24, 4:32pm
Mark Parkinson's Avatar
Mark Parkinson Mark Parkinson is offline
hi ho hi ho its off to ..
 
Join Date: Oct 27, 2007
Location: Odessa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
It is neither slander nor libel to list the name of a studio that does not have proper ventilation. It is neither slander nor libel to list the name of a studio that keeps 20# propane cannisters inside the building. Writing the truth is not slander, nor is it libel. It is merely the truth. It can be uncomfortable, even painful. But it does need to be heard. And as far as the livelihood of the employees and dependants, that's not my call, its the studio owners' as he/she is the one allowing the situation to take place in the first place. Place the responsibility where it belongs, on the studio owner.

These are all code violations AS YOU MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR LITTLE RANT, and as such, are valid statements to make to expose unsafe and improper practices. No attorney would take such a case. But be my guest! If you think you have a case, go ahead and contact an attorney.
do you even bother to read all of a message before you start spitting out bile ? I asked if YOU had seen these "violations" if not then it is just hearsay.

as for contacting a lawyer if you bothered to read and comprehend what I wrote you can see I said "if you said such things about me" .... obviously my point of veiw is not valid ... if such small things can be taken out of context when they are written plainly for you to see nothing I say will be taken as face value ... therefore I bow out of this thread before any more bile gets chuked my way
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
People who call me weird think I should take it personally. if you really want to upset me you should call me normal !!!

on
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 2008-02-24, 8:31pm
Mustang Dawn's Avatar
Mustang Dawn Mustang Dawn is offline
Your Royal Fritness
 
Join Date: Jun 13, 2005
Location: Howell, Michigan
Posts: 3,393
Default

I just found this thread,

I'm not much for words so I will keep it simple. The 1st thing I ask the studio when I'm asked to teach a class is what type of ventilation system do they have. If they don't have one I explain what they need and then I don't teach the class. Second, when I call to take a class from a well known instructor I ask what type of ventilation system the studio has. If they don't have one I tell them all the reasons why they should and hang up the phone. If all instructors/students did this I think you would see proper systems being installed.

Now beginning lampworkers will not no squat about safety/ventilation and that is where I think certification would be a good thing but I have no idea on how to enforce it.

Teaching about safety does not take hours. I cover it in my intermediate classes as well. You would be surprised how many lampworkers still thought an open window was proper ventilation.

This is a good thread!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 2008-02-25, 9:03am
Cosmo's Avatar
Cosmo Cosmo is offline
ManBearPig
 
Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Parkinson View Post
because the codes are there already, these studios can be shut down by building code violations or workplace safety. another layer of intervention is not needed all that is needed is the complaints voiced in the right places to activevate the system.

-and if I am not a member of ISGB or other "professional" governing body and do not wish to be governed by their rules how are you going to enforce it?

-in these days of internet awareness all the information is out there for people who are intrested in their safety to obtain the information and act on it if people after reading the safety guides that are out there now will not act in a safe maner no legeslation will do it ... people still will not wear seat belts and that has a more immeadiate effect on them.

-as for so called unsafe studios that teach I would be careful about listing thier names on your so called Hall of Shame ... unless you have personally inspected their locations and have the credentials and science to back it up you are messing with the livelyhood of several people thier employees and dependents ... with out proof that is slander and libel and if you said such things about me my lawyer would be living in your backpocket with your wallet for the rest of your life.
I've never thought any sort of certification should be mandatory. There isn't any "enforcing" to do that I can see. The certification should be completely optional.

And, while there is good information on this message board and others, it is a very small portion of the glassworking population. I have at least 50 customers that buy glass from our store on a regular basis. Only one of them has ever been to this board. Many of them don't visit any boards. Some don't even use the internet much.

I keep hearing people say "let them use the internet to find out". While it's true that when I'm researching something the internet is the first place I turn, there are many, many more people who don't do that.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 2008-02-25, 10:48am
pam's Avatar
pam pam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
Default

So, Cosmo, what is the answer? (and I am not being facetious here, really seriously asking the question)

If you can't get safety information to students through the internet, how do you find these potential students that need to be informed?

You, as a studio owner, could hand out a brochure that says what to look for when shopping for a place to have classes, but then those that don't have the "perfect" studio wouldn't be giving out these brochures. You could have instructors give them out to their students, but if the instructor is teaching in a substandard studio, I doubt the owner would be very happy about it - and the harm is already done if the student is taking the class. A company could issue a certificate of compliance and you, as the studio owner, could say, look, I have this certificate that says my studio is wonderful, but if the student doesn't know anything the certificate is going to mean nothing.

To me, the problem becomes how to reach those who are interested in flameworking, but don't put any effort into finding out information, and that is really hard to do.
__________________
Pam

"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Blog
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 2008-02-25, 11:02am
Dennis Brady's Avatar
Dennis Brady Dennis Brady is offline
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Apr 12, 2006
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 5,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
I've never thought any sort of certification should be mandatory. There isn't any "enforcing" to do that I can see. The certification should be completely optional.

And, while there is good information on this message board and others, it is a very small portion of the glassworking population. I have at least 50 customers that buy glass from our store on a regular basis. Only one of them has ever been to this board. Many of them don't visit any boards. Some don't even use the internet much.

I keep hearing people say "let them use the internet to find out". While it's true that when I'm researching something the internet is the first place I turn, there are many, many more people who don't do that.
For years I taught various classes at Las Vegas GlassCraft Expo. In every class, I asked everyone what internet boards they visited. Less then 5% used any board at all. The percentage of full time professional artisans that participate in them is about the same. If I compiled a list of the top 20 instructors, I'd expect that list to be mostly individuals that never visited any internet board. I sincerely doubt the instructors give a rat's ass about any certification provided by or proposed by, any association or club. How many people think Vicki Payne's certification means anything?
__________________
Dennis Brady

DeBrady Glassworks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- - Glass Campus
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Victorian Art Glass
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Master Artisan
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 2008-02-25, 11:24am
evolvingBeau's Avatar
evolvingBeau evolvingBeau is offline
No Problem!
 
Join Date: Oct 14, 2005
Location: Fernley. Nevada
Posts: 1,130
Default

The more that this goes back and forth the more strongly I feel that just like it's your choice to wear a seatbelt or not, it is the choice of the individual(s) involved to do what they want in any situation.
For teachers and studios, this means either lead from the front and make safety instruction and facilititation paramount. Or, just do what you do with what you've got and possibly be scratched from the list of discerning teachers and/or students. Simple.
Earthly existence is one of free choice, if a person just starting out, and is not safety conscious and is naive when it comes to considering and investigating potential hazards in a new hobby etc. Then it's simply their problem, we're all adults.
They will be fortunate if they come into contact with an entity (internet or actual person/facility) who can inform them of these hazards but until then they are literally on thier own. Same as it ever was.
We're not talking about a beadmakers/lampworkers union here. These are transient and/or personal environments. Home studios are governed by the owner/renter.
Large commercial studios have managment and ownership that will do what they can, and if they are negligent, ignorant or just plain cheap, then oh well. Not my problem or anyone elses but theirs.
If they're violating federal or local laws, then good luck to them, that's between them and the local enforcement.
Unless someone wants to become a travelling saftey pirate that goes around personally appearing at studios to crack the whip, like a fire marshall speaks at elementary schools telling kids not to play with matches then it is just the same as it ever was.

Trying to enforce these rules on a grand scale is indeed ambitious, but the continued evolution of information will continue without fail, there is much more information and teachers are much more saftey concious than they were 10 years ago, and naturally, things will continue to get better without a real need for slamming the stragglers..
If you're reading this, then you're a part of it and can help this along by speaking up when you have the opportunity, if they don't want to hear it or are not concerned, then oh well better luck with the next set of ears...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Beau & Shani)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 2008-02-25, 12:01pm
Cosmo's Avatar
Cosmo Cosmo is offline
ManBearPig
 
Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
So, Cosmo, what is the answer? (and I am not being facetious here, really seriously asking the question)

If you can't get safety information to students through the internet, how do you find these potential students that need to be informed?

You, as a studio owner, could hand out a brochure that says what to look for when shopping for a place to have classes, but then those that don't have the "perfect" studio wouldn't be giving out these brochures. You could have instructors give them out to their students, but if the instructor is teaching in a substandard studio, I doubt the owner would be very happy about it - and the harm is already done if the student is taking the class. A company could issue a certificate of compliance and you, as the studio owner, could say, look, I have this certificate that says my studio is wonderful, but if the student doesn't know anything the certificate is going to mean nothing.

To me, the problem becomes how to reach those who are interested in flameworking, but don't put any effort into finding out information, and that is really hard to do.
That's where I think the certification comes in. A lot of people find out about classes through magazine ads or take classes at big shows, but don't really use the internet much. When you see someone who has taken the PMC certification course (sorry to keep comparing things to them, but they are the only other certification I know of off the top of my head) they are advertised as "certified teachers". If it were possible to put "ISGB certified" (or whatever organization) on the flyers, ads, etc., it would go a long way towards 1) letting potential students know that the instructor has experience in what they are teaching, and 2) bring more publicity to the ISGB. People that aren't familiar with the ISGB may say "Hmmm.... what is this 'ISGB' anyways?" and then go search it out, and that will open them up to a whole new world.

True, there is no way to certify that someone is a good teacher. The certification will only state that they know the facts. But, to me, at least it's a start. I don't think it's the absolute solution to the problem. I don't know if this problem of teachers giving bad advice can ever be 100% eliminated, but every step we can make towards that is a step in the right direction.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 2008-02-25, 12:02pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

In other words, "lead, follow or get the hell out of the way."
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 2008-02-25, 2:36pm
pam's Avatar
pam pam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
Default

Thanks, Cosmo, for your answer. I certainly value your opinions. I think you have put a lot of thought into this issue.

As with PMC, I can see a benefit to Bullseye certifying instructors or Effetre certifying instructors or GA or Northstar, because that is what you are referring to when you say PMC. It's a brand that is certifying instructors that use its products. It's then giving those instructors a benefit by giving them a discount on their products. Does a PMC certified instructor know more than an uncertified instructor? Are students unfamiliar with these metal clays coming up to people and saying I want to learn, but you have to be certified?

I can even understand people wanting an organization to certify instructors, and I can understand people that don't want that process of certification in existence. I see both sides of the issue. Over the years I have talked to some of the best instructors the glass bead world has to offer and almost unanimously they have been against certification (hey, they may have to take a test). I've talked to some of the newest instructors and almost unanimously they want certification. So, what this tells me is a couple of things. Experienced instructors don't see the need because they are already "in demand", while newer instructors want it because they believe it will boost their "selling power". And then there are those who have no interest in certification because they just don't want to be tested on what they know. So, assuming that a certification process was designed and put into effect, what would the outcome be? You would have the more experienced instructors showing no certification and the newer instructors having certification. Someone looking at that could decide that the certification was meaningless because some of the best instructors we know don't bother to become certified.

Again, I think education is the key. Set up standards, and get the information out to those who want to learn. I think how is the key.
__________________
Pam

"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Blog
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 2008-02-25, 7:59pm
Mr. Smiley's Avatar
Mr. Smiley Mr. Smiley is offline
boro color bender
 
Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
Posts: 10,039
Default

Safety is important, but some people talk as if we're diffusing a bomb here. We aren't... We are melting glass with fire. Sure, there are some inherent risks and safety does need to be taught. There are health issues to consider. 99.99% of these risks are exposure to lower levels of toxins and are cumulative. You aren't gonna die if you take a class and the ventilation is less than perfect. I'm not saying this shouldn't be addressed and the students / studios educated, but I also don't like seeing "safety" blown WAY out of proportion.

If you're so worried about human life/ health, think about spending this energy on something that IS taking lives. People die every day doing things that are way more dangerous and I'd think you could get even more recognition if you'd go rescue somebody that needs rescuing.

From what I've seen, this industry is pretty much self regulating. If a studio has bad air or unsafe conditions, their business will suffer. If an instructor isn't up to par, they won't get very far... education is the key... and enforcement by somebody that just wants to be important isn't going to work. IMHO This safety stuff getting shoved down my throat gets old... even if I agree that being safe is a really good thing.


Just my thoughts... not that it matters much.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

Last edited by Mr. Smiley; 2008-02-29 at 5:56am.
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 2008-02-25, 10:06pm
NLC Beads's Avatar
NLC Beads NLC Beads is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 01, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,458
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley View Post
Safety is important, but some people talk as if we're diffusing a bomb here. We aren't... We are melting glass with fire. Sure, there are some inherent risks and safety does need to be taught. There are health issues to consider. 99.99% of these risks are exposure to lower levels of toxins and are cumulative. You aren't gonna die if you take a class and the ventilation is less than perfect. I'm not saying this shouldn't be addressed and the students / studios educated, but I also don't like seeing "safety" blown WAY out of proportion.

If you're so worried about human life/ health, go spend this energy on something that IS taking lives. People die every day doing things that are way more dangerous and I'd think you could get even more recognition if you'd go rescue somebody that needs rescuing.

From what I've seen, this industry is pretty much self regulating. If a studio has bad air or unsafe conditions, their business will suffer. If an instructor isn't up to par, they won't get very far... education is the key... and enforcement by somebody that just wants to be important isn't going to work. IMHO This safety stuff getting shoved down my throat gets old... even if I agree that being safe is a really good thing.


Just my thoughts... not that it matters much.
I'd high five you for this one if you were in the room with me... Just sayin'...

My ventilation is great in my home studio, I understand make up air, I explain that in my beginners class, and I ask if anyone in my intermediate class wants to know more about safety...

But the studio I teach at is an all-purpose studio, it teaches everything from basket weaving (yes, seriously) to knitting, stained glass, etc. It's a big old drafty building, the lady who owns it has had beadmaking classes there I think 10 years - the group of people Pam refers to that didn't know as much then, I'm guessing. There's no feasible way to retrofit the studio with appropriate ventilation considering the cost based on the number of students, class fees, etc. We are in a neighborhood that I don't think would support a glass studio - Steinart already closed in Kent, which is relatively close.

So given a choice between taking classes there with Cindy Jenkins, who I adore or not, based on ventilation? I'm there.

Given a chance to teach people who want to learn, and go over safety both as a mini-lecture and a handout for my classes but not have "certifiable" ventilation? I'm there, especially when the alternative is not to teach these eager students. If it wasn't for this studio, I wouldn't be torching... I'll warn anyone who asks that it's not a full time glass studio, but I love this location almost as much as my own home... Stone away...
__________________


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
:~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
:~ Nikki ~:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
:~

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
:~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"...living hopefully ever after..." -john lennon
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 2008-02-26, 6:30am
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
IMHO This safety stuff getting shoved down my throat gets old...
As far as I'm aware, no one is forcing you to read this thread, just sayin'...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 2008-02-26, 6:33am
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
There's no feasible way to retrofit the studio with appropriate ventilation considering the cost based on the number of students, class fees, etc. We are in a neighborhood that I don't think would support a glass studio - Steinart already closed in Kent, which is relatively close.

So given a choice between taking classes there with Cindy Jenkins, who I adore or not, based on ventilation? I'm there.
Well, here's the problem...you see, ventilation CAN be retrofitted to almost any studio, if the owner decides that student safety is more important than profits for a short period of time. I absolutely refuse to believe that profits are more important than following the law, much less providing a safe workplace for students to learn...

And really, you would actually put your health in possible jeopardy to take a lesson from someone? Really?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 2008-02-26, 6:46am
Mr. Smiley's Avatar
Mr. Smiley Mr. Smiley is offline
boro color bender
 
Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
Posts: 10,039
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
As far as I'm aware, no one is forcing you to read this thread, just sayin'...
Well Mike, when you run around the various boards hollering, screaming about propane NEVER being allowed inside... then you started talking about turning in studios to local authorities... and doing a wall of shame to humiliate the people in my profession... it's hard not to give in and read. Isn't that what you wanted? Your grand standing has gotten some attention... and believe me, I for one have tried to keep my mouth shut and let you rant and rave.

Did you bother to read the code you quoted in another thread? The part that says PROPANE IS ALLOWED/LEGAL TO HAVE INSIDE COMMERCIAL BUILDING UNDER SOME CIRCUMSTANCES!

Quote:
The American National Standard for storage and use of propane cylinders is NFPA 58-2004, Liquified Petrleum Gas Code, which is adopted in all 50 states. NFPA 58 does not allow 20# propane cylinders to be used or stored in residences. This includes garages attached to residences, and detached garages. Use is permitted to a limited degree in industrial buildings, but only where it would be impractical to locate the cylinder outdoors and pipe the gas in.

The major hazard is not BLEVE, but overheating and release of the propane torch fire, which can extend 20 ft from a cylinder (from the pressure release valve). This can spread fire horizontally, and can be a significant threat to firefighters.
So which is it Mike... do you want it both ways? From my experience as an instructor, you've got a lot of local agencies to call and a lot of people to try and shut down. How does that help this industry? Is that what you really want to do? If it's so darn important, why don't you head up some sort of program with the ISGB... send out informational packets and start a fund to help make studios safer. BUT do it in a kind and helpful way... or not... Just sayin...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 2008-02-26, 6:57am
Cosmo's Avatar
Cosmo Cosmo is offline
ManBearPig
 
Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Thanks, Cosmo, for your answer. I certainly value your opinions. I think you have put a lot of thought into this issue.

As with PMC, I can see a benefit to Bullseye certifying instructors or Effetre certifying instructors or GA or Northstar, because that is what you are referring to when you say PMC. It's a brand that is certifying instructors that use its products. It's then giving those instructors a benefit by giving them a discount on their products. Does a PMC certified instructor know more than an uncertified instructor? Are students unfamiliar with these metal clays coming up to people and saying I want to learn, but you have to be certified?

I can even understand people wanting an organization to certify instructors, and I can understand people that don't want that process of certification in existence. I see both sides of the issue. Over the years I have talked to some of the best instructors the glass bead world has to offer and almost unanimously they have been against certification (hey, they may have to take a test). I've talked to some of the newest instructors and almost unanimously they want certification. So, what this tells me is a couple of things. Experienced instructors don't see the need because they are already "in demand", while newer instructors want it because they believe it will boost their "selling power". And then there are those who have no interest in certification because they just don't want to be tested on what they know. So, assuming that a certification process was designed and put into effect, what would the outcome be? You would have the more experienced instructors showing no certification and the newer instructors having certification. Someone looking at that could decide that the certification was meaningless because some of the best instructors we know don't bother to become certified.

Again, I think education is the key. Set up standards, and get the information out to those who want to learn. I think how is the key.
Honestly, I think a lot of the big name instructors would get certified. A lot of the big names go to the Gathering, the GAS conference, the big shows, etc. For most of them, glass is their life and livelihood. They do whatever they can to involve themselves with glass (something I wish I could do). I think they would lead the way for the lesser known instructors. Of course, I'm nowhere near a "big name" myself, so I can't say for sure.

I would also like to think that whatever group does the certification would get the input from some of these big name instructors to help develop their certification process. Not saying that the ISGB or whoever are not good lampworkers in their own right, but, as has been mentioned many times in this thread, being a good lampworker and being a good teacher do not always go hand in hand. It would take the help of some of the big names to even get the process going. People flock to places to take classes from Brad Pearson, Michael Barley, and others. Having people like that associated with the certification process automatically gives it more credit.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 2008-02-26, 6:59am
Cosmo's Avatar
Cosmo Cosmo is offline
ManBearPig
 
Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley View Post
IMHO This safety stuff getting shoved down my throat gets old...
No offense Brent, because you know you're my homey, but this is the "Safety" forum. I think this is the place for just such discussions.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 2008-02-26, 6:59am
Mr. Smiley's Avatar
Mr. Smiley Mr. Smiley is offline
boro color bender
 
Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
Posts: 10,039
Default

I feel I should clarify my position on this a little bit. I AM ALL FOR SAFETY... and education about how to work, teach and learn in a safe environment. I just think the risks need to be managed... they can't be eliminated. It's impractical if not impossible. Improvements can be made and should be made as our industry grows... lets just do it responsibly... Extremists of any kind leave me with a very bad taste in my mouth... and real world application goes way beyond a mathematical formula or theory on paper. If there are going to be set standards, I'd like to see it done in a way that keeps things moving forward and does not hurt anybody in the process... that's all.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 2008-02-26, 7:05am
Mr. Smiley's Avatar
Mr. Smiley Mr. Smiley is offline
boro color bender
 
Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
Posts: 10,039
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
No offense Brent, because you know you're my homey, but this is the "Safety" forum. I think this is the place for just such discussions.
It certainly is the place for it... but this has gone beyond a discussion on what can be done... and threats to turn people in and create a wall of shame were made. That's not discussion, it's blackmail. As I look back at all the great studios I've taught at... there isn't one place that lives up to these unreasonable standards... NOT ONE! So yeah... discuss how things can be improved till the cows come home and it won't upset me in the least... I'd be behind it. It didn't feel like it was being shoved down my throat personally, until the threats to conform to these perfect standards or suffer the wrath started.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 2008-02-26, 7:37am
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
Default

I don't like the public humiliation dealio either.

I said in my very first posts that education is the key...not 'enforcement' or whatever one would call it.

I have been to the studio where Nikki teaches. The owner is an awesome lady trying to offer in-demand classes to an area that would not support a full-time glass studio. I doubt she is making a whole lot of money from it...seems to me she is filling a need. She has an artist's heart. It would take thousands of dollars to ventilate that old building and she keeps her prices so low it would take a decade to recoup that money. If a teacher or student chooses not to go there based on that, it is their decision. I don't think what this lady is doing earns her a spot of SHAME on anybody's list.

I have studios that I would not teach in again, for sure. But the one Nikki is referring to is doing the best they can. If it were a full-time glass studio, raking in $500 per student per class and still not doing regular upgrades or improvements to safety...that is crummy, but that is not what it's about.

This example is the reason I'm not liking the whole 'let's be regulators' thing.
~~Mary
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 2008-02-26, 7:37am
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
but only where it would be impractical to locate the cylinder outdoors and pipe the gas in.
Which part of this do you not understand? This means things like forklifts, mobile cranes, etc. It does NOT mean the tank under the table because it would cost too much to plumb it in. The NFPA sets a very high bar for "impractical".

And who said ANYTHING about calling up inspectors and getting studios shut down. I think you are putting words in my mouth and words on paper that I've never written.

Slow down and back off a bit.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 1:14pm.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 44.213.75.78