Kilns and clicking

[2tumblingdragonz]

Hi Everyone. Happy Monday.

I have a chili pepper.

Do all kilns click? it's driving us a bit crazy clicking all night. I'm in a small condo and there's no way to get it far enough away.

I'm kind of getting used to it but Bob is complaining. I'm on a 14 hour annealing schedule so ain't no way around it.

I'm especially interested in the paragons and Glass Hives. Just a wee bead kiln for now, preferably one I could stand my centre dipped mandrels up in easily.

Namaste
Rowyn

[Eileen]

14 hours? Why so long?
Is that for boro?

Yes, it clicks every time it turns back on to keep the temperature in the right range.
Maybe you can get him some of the foam ear plugs to wear to bed if you have it on. Is there any place you can put it outside?

[cheng076]

There is a way around it but only if you are competent in electronics. You can replace the analog relay with an solid state relay and no more clicking but it is complicated and might be expensive depending on the parts needed.

[menty666]

even my boro annealing times are a shorter than that.

[2tumblingdragonz]

no boro, it's the schedule I worked out for thickness and coe, I've had NO compatability issues whatsoever. I learned this in a class and read glassblowing books and came up with this. I do sometimes run an abbreviated version, but that's 12 hours.

Even Lauscha clear doesn't crack on me no matter what I use her with.

Actually if I'm using alot of cim, it's longer.

I guess we'll have to get used to the click click click clikc...

thanks

namaste
Rowyn

[AKDesigns]

Longer annealing schedules do help with finicky glass. Mine is 13 hours from the time I'm done torching to the time they are cool enough to remove from the kiln...about 100 degrees. However, it won't "fix" any compatibility issues. If it's gonna crack because of incompatibility, it will. Just maybe after your customer gets it.

[Locococo]

Rowyn,

my annealing time takes 4 to 5 hours and I only use Lauscha clear without any problems.

Elke

[LarryC]

Originally Posted by AKDesigns

Longer annealing schedules do help with finicky glass. Mine is 13 hours from the time I'm done torching to the time they are cool enough to remove from the kiln...about 100 degrees. However, it won't "fix" any compatibility issues. If it's gonna crack because of incompatibility, it will. Just maybe after your customer gets it.

What is "finicky" glass?

[jamie lynne]

finicky glass= Lauscha (In my book) There are also some CIM colors that require a longer higher annealing time to be compatable... I guess. I don't trust the anneal it higher and longer method as a fix, but some people do. I just don't use glass that needs special treatment.

[AKDesigns]

Originally Posted by LarryC

What is "finicky" glass?

Lauscha, which I don't even use anymore. It likes a higher temp as well so I would garage and anneal at 1000 degrees. That's just one example.

I personally like a nice long schedule with a very slow ramp down. That way if I have any cracking issues I know it's either from something I did or there's an issue with the glass. I can always rule my annealing schedule out right away.

[Alaska]

Originally Posted by 2tumblingdragonz

Do all kilns click?

To answer your question, No. Kilns that have a relay will click every time the controller sends a signal to the relay to turn on the heating elements. That can be as much as several times a second depending on your controller.

A kiln with a solid state relay (SSR) does not click as stated above. The electronics, by the use of a solid state device, provides power to the elements. There is sometimes a hum associated with this but is not caused by the SSR.

The SSR requires four wires for connections. One set is the power (110 - 220 VAC - a series connection) and the other two from the controller (4-32 VDC). All of these wires go to your present mechanical relay. The bottom of the SSR must be attached to a heat sink with the appropriate heat sink compound. (note: some relays may be DPST in place of SPST for safety reasons)

Check eBay by searching for solid state relays. Overall cost for a unit that will handle 90 to 240 VAC at 25 amps should be in the range of 15 to 20 dollars including shipping/handling. The SSR for my kiln is a Crydom and cost $10.

[essiemessy]

Click???? Ha! I'm so glad mine is outside in the garden shed. It sounds like a small-town substation when it clicks on

[2tumblingdragonz]

Thanks everyone, I'm gonna check out the ss relay and ask if our electrician knows how to do it. I am afraid of electricity.

I don't mean compatability like the wrong coe, I mean using lauscha clear and some other combos that I don't recall off the top of my head that I've read about and tried and not gotten cracks.

I'm just getting ready to start selling so I'm hoping the schedule I'm using will continue to work. I trust the person who taught me and the 12/14 hours is the time after I'm done working. I hold for 2 hours after the last bead goes in the kiln and then ramp down at a calculated rate. If it's just test beads or they are really little beads with no encasement I will hold at ramped down temps for a percentage shorter, but not for beads that I am giving away or will sell.
I know there is alot of debate about annealing, I just know what I was taught and have the scientific info to back that up. I would prefer to err on the side of caution.

If I'm working other than 104, it's a whole different schedule. I've had no thermal cracks since I've been doing this, just as Amy said, I totally agree with her.

Now a hum may be worse for me. I'm one of those people who hear a low frequency hum when the ground reaches a certain temp and below. Hums drive me batshit.

The clicking I kind of have learned to tune out.

Too bad someone hasn't come up with the ssr as stock. I wonder if it could be customed in to a new kiln?

ok, thanks everyone

namaste
Rowyn

[Eileen]

One more thing, if he doesn't like the idea of the foam ear plugs, maybe a white noise machine would tune the clicking out enough that he could sleep without being disturbed?

[Alaska]

In regard to any hum, if your kiln does not have that issue now, it will most likely not have that issue with a SSR.

Assuming you have a Orton 3 Key controller here are two diagrams of the system. The first is the way it is now wired with the mechanical relay. The second is the modified diagram for use with the SSR.

Circuit diagram with mechanical relay.



Circuit diagram for use with SSR. (note: the safety feature of breaking both sides of the line is not available with the SSR - use at your own risk)

[2tumblingdragonz]

Thank you Alaska, I have a Bartlett 3 key...might it be similar?

[Ed_Slawson]

Another way to get rid of the clicking is to use a mercury-wetted relay. We use them on all of our larger kilns along with Digitry controllers, and there is no sound... and, we have not had one wear out in over 12 years of use. Because of the mercury they do not arc, which means that they do not eventually weld themselves together.

[2tumblingdragonz]

Is this something that an electrician can do, even if he doesn't know about kilns? one of my brothers is going to electrical engineering school.

continuing thanks for the continuing posts.

angel blessings
Rowyn

[Lisi]

Wow, that is a loooong annealing schedule! Your electric bill must show it! How large are your pieces??? If it is just beads or even large marbles or paperweights it should be a small fraction of that amount of time.

I know you mentioned that you trust the person that taught you this, but I would ask the professionals on here about their typical annealing schedule and see how they compare. In nine years of doing this I have never heard of annealing for 14 hours. Unless you mean the annealing temp is for an hour or so and the rest of the time is soaking for 30min to an hour at the strain point, and then a ramping down to room temp. Is that what you mean? Or something to that effect??

[Lisi]

Never mind, I read where you said you have a two hour hold and then a ramp down. Now I understand!

[swamper]

There should be a controller setting that will allow you to kind of control some of the clicking.

For instance if you have your kiln to maintain 940 degrees plus or minus 2 degrees, it is going to work way harder (and click more) than if you have it set to 940 degrees plus or minus 5-10 degrees.

It's a trade off. Do you want to try to maintain an exact temperature or do you want less clicking?

[2tumblingdragonz]

How do I do this? That would be great!

Originally Posted by swamper

There should be a controller setting that will allow you to kind of control some of the clicking.

For instance if you have your kiln to maintain 940 degrees plus or minus 2 degrees, it is going to work way harder (and click more) than if you have it set to 940 degrees plus or minus 5-10 degrees.

It's a trade off. Do you want to try to maintain an exact temperature or do you want less clicking?

[Eileen]

I didn't see any place in my Chili Pepper instructions that is for this, but you could call JenKen and ask them. They're very nice and helpful.

[Anne Londez]

Originally Posted by Lisi

I know you mentioned that you trust the person that taught you this, but I would ask the professionals on here about their typical annealing schedule and see how they compare.

Since you ask... I do make big beads and massive pieces in 104 glass (up to 100 x 100 mm more or less) and I use an annealing schedule that is modeled on what they do in Murano.

My annealing schedule does have a long hold-time (close to 2h too, more if the pieces are really big) and a very controlled ramping down for the first 50°C (100 degrees F) (.3 to .5 °C/min or 1 F/min MAX) because this is the temp range where you can re-introduce stress if going too fast.

Between let's say 400°C and 350°C you can ramp down a little faster (maybe 1°C/min or 2 F/min).

Under 350°C you cannot re-introduce stress in your glass so I just shut my kiln down. Make sure however NOT to open the kiln door until the temp is below 100°C because cold air currents will still break the pieces between 350°C and 100°C.

That should reduce the duration of your annealing schedule to around 4-5h and it will not affect the quality of the annealing though it will help you sleep better and save electricity !

[swamper]

Originally Posted by 2tumblingdragonz

How do I do this? That would be great!

Unfortunately, my Fuji instructions were so difficult to interpret that I called who I bought the kiln from for a how to. I forget who it was but I do remember him saying that less clicking would make my relay last longer. Now I go through a relay about every two years instead of every year. I always keep one on hand. I've considered going to a solid state one but for that I'd need an electrical person. When I replace my relay, I know where all the wires go. Solid state looks totally different.

[SuzyQ]

I'm curious what a 14 hour annealing schedule does to your rubino. I try to make those beads last because they get muddier when held for a few hours at my garaging temperature. I haven't actually tested this theory again in couple years.

[laserglass]

15 minutes per 1/4 inch of thickness. so if you are making 2 inch diameter paperweights, you only need to hold the glass at temp for 2 hours, then ramp down. your 14 hour cycle seem excessive. as for the clicking, you could convert to solid state relays, but you need to be good at electronics. if the 100mm beads are hollow, it is NOT the diameter but the thickness that is important. so if you make a 100mm hollow bead with a wall thickness of 2 mm, you only have to hold at temp a few minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GLASSFREEK]

if I am not mistaking, the 3 key you have will only work on a mechanical relay, it doesn't have the outputs on it for an ssr relay, you would have to change the controller also.
will check it out for you.

Mike

[swamper]

Originally Posted by GLASSFREEK

if I am not mistaking, the 3 key you have will only work on a mechanical relay, it doesn't have the outputs on it for an ssr relay, you would have to change the controller also.
will check it out for you.

Mike

Mike, are you speaking to my Fuji controller? That would be great.

Also great if you were referring to 2tumblingdragonz's controller.

I'm interested in the answer either way. The clicking doesn't bother me because my bedroom is at the other end of the house. However a more reliable relay interests me.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by Ed_Slawson

Another way to get rid of the clicking is to use a mercury-wetted relay. We use them on all of our larger kilns along with Digitry controllers, and there is no sound... and, we have not had one wear out in over 12 years of use. Because of the mercury they do not arc, which means that they do not eventually weld themselves together.

Hmmmm, I wish bead kilnmakers would use these. I've had a couple of meltdowns, one of which ruined a $1200 kiln.