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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2013-08-17, 9:25pm
AVTrout's Avatar
AVTrout AVTrout is offline
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Default Lordy B'gordy, Ventilation Is My Achilles Heel

My previous studio where we used to live was great - a 12' x 20' wall of screen (we lived in Hawaii). I bought a floor model fan at Home Depot (3150 cfm), put it on top of a stool, sat it in front of my torch bench and blew all the fumes out the giant wall window. The other 3 walls around me were also made out of screen windows, so make-up air was a non-issue. We actually cut a large rectangle out of the screen and took out a hunk of the lattice work. The silver rectangle in front of the fan is a piece of Reflectex, which is like silver bubble wrap that you put underneath your metal roof. Helps reflect heat. It was a nice barrier at the window when I wasn't using the fan, kept out rats and critters. I removed it when I torched.


Then we moved to Pennsylvania. We built this fabulous little torch house for me.


Had a window installed on 1 wall with another window behind me and a sliding screen door to my left. Bought a round floor model fan at Home Depot (all I could find was 2100 cfm, but I figured it'd work), put it on top of a stool, sat it in front of my bench in front of the open window. Torched and got all funky feeling.


So I had the contractor install a Lomanco 2000 model attic fan in the ceiling and hardwire it to a wall switch. He built a 3" wooden frame around the inside of the fan, we covered it with a sheet of steel that had an 8" round hole cut out, attached dryer tubing, brought it down to my bench area, used aluminum tape to secure all the seams. True, the Lomanco 2000 is only 800 cfm's, but I figured since I was having the tubing directly at the tip of my flame, it'd suck all the pollutants out way better this way. Then I tried torching, and felt all funky (sore throat, elephant sitting on my chest, disoriented). Here's a pic of it before we put in the dryer tubing.


A little background info...... We lived in PA before moving to HI (and then back to PA). I tried torching in the basement, which didn't work. We had built a wash tub type ventilation system with a 650 cfm fan. I tried torching in the garage. My husband had a hood built for me by an aluminum manufacturing company. We used an 800 cfm fan. It worked ok, but the hood itself is big and bulky and ugly. Here it is:

Believe it or not, we hauled this sucker 5500 miles to Hawaii and another 5500 back to Pennsylvania. The chains are used for securing it to the ceiling. They're hanging through the hole in the top where I'd put a squirrel cage fan (we threw it out before we moved back to the mainland, it got all rusty in Hawaii). We never used it out there, just left it in the carport. I wanted to throw it out a bunch of times, but my husband made me keep it. And we still have it but I'd like to try something else, something less obtrusive, something that will allow me to use the natural daylight lighting and the new track lighting I had installed, which I really like. With the hood, I won't be able to, I'll have to go back to the goose neck clamp style lamps.

My new plan is to install this:

Northern Tool exhaust fan link.

If we take out the window and install the fan above, it should suck out everything and then some. It has 5460 cfm's. Stick it in the spot where the window was, board up the remaining space (nicely, so it looks all pretty and such), get rid of the ceiling ventilation system, have an electrician hardwire the new window fan to a wall switch, stick my bench and torch in front of it and..... it'll work, right? The problem with the ceiling ventilation we have now (aside from the fact that it's poisoning me) is that it doesn't suck strong enough and the radiant flame burns my fingers when I get the glass rods close to the mandrel. Never had that problem with any of the other ventilation systems we tried. With 5460 cfm's I'm thinking it'll just about suck me into the fan, which is just fine with me, as long as it sucks out all the fumes.

My other idea is to scrap the ceiling ventilation, toss the current floor fan, and replace it with the identical model I had in Hawaii:

3150 glorious cfm's.

My concern is that the reason the one I have right now doesn't work as well isn't because it's 1000 cfm's less (although that very well might be the issue), but because there's no screen window around the window hole. Wooden wall instead of screen window. I'm thinking the dirty air is blowing back on me because it's hitting the walls around the window opening.

Any ventilation guru's willing to chime in and give me some advice? I know, I know, I KNOW. The hood set-up that I have sounds pretty sweet. Get rid of the crappy Lomanco 800 cfm fan, throw up a much stronger one in it's place, hook-up the hood. But I really loved the system I had in Hawaii, had lots of daylight and that was my favorite set-up by far. Think I could recreate it with the Sooper Sucker Upper Northern Tool Window Extravaganza Fan noted above? Can anyone gimme an amen? Or a hell no?

Thank you very much!!
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Last edited by AVTrout; 2013-08-17 at 9:41pm.
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  #2  
Old 2013-08-18, 2:22am
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jhamilton117 jhamilton117 is offline
kinda torching....
 
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http://www.accesshydroponic.com/inli...h-969-cfm.html

Trim your hood for more natural lighting. Run a fan like this with rigid or semi rigid duct work and keep the attic fan for fresh air and to keep any fumes from pooling and building up. Oh and what part of pa?
BTW the fan I linked is an example of what I mean, inline fan wise. Looks like a decent fan for the price, def check amazon and shop around. These are designed for hydroponics use so they're moisture rated and even work well against static pressure.
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  #3  
Old 2013-08-18, 2:26am
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jhamilton117 jhamilton117 is offline
kinda torching....
 
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Oh and keep your window for natural lighting and a view!

If the hood were mine, id probably cut off the sides and back where it extends down and then trim a few inches in the front for head space. Your hood looks more suited for a cc+ rather than a mini lol
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  #4  
Old 2013-08-18, 8:59pm
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This was today's set-up. Still with the poopy industrial fan, not a new one, but this time my husband strung it up with some wire and hooks so it actually sits in the window frame. It works (fingers crossed) so far. I think because it's not meeting any resistance from the surrounding walls or window. Humpf. We'll see. I'm not optimistic. (maybe I should be, maybe the universe is trying to teach me a lesson!?!?)
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  #5  
Old 2013-08-19, 12:49am
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kinda torching....
 
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Fans like that aren't good with static pressure, so if you have a screen in the window it will be hitting that and blowing back in, same as if there was a breeze blowing in the window blowing fumes back at you
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  #6  
Old 2013-08-19, 9:11am
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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Any fan directly in front of you with at least 1500cfm and NO screens, NO obstructions "should" move a adequate amount of air to keep you safe....

IF not, look into something like this....

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum....php?f=22&t=90

Box or cabinet can even be something like clear lexan if working "enclosed" bothers you....

Dale
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  #7  
Old 2013-08-24, 10:25am
pattycake pattycake is offline
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still learning: so you are saying open space for the fan in front of the work space, and another open window ( space) for clean air to come in? Then how do people people ( I have seen) work in closed studios but they have a hood/fan. and an A.C. going? That cant be good... talking very small space too, not a large class room size studio
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  #8  
Old 2013-08-24, 1:21pm
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Lorraine Chandler Lorraine Chandler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pattycake View Post
still learning: so you are saying open space for the fan in front of the work space, and another open window ( space) for clean air to come in? Then how do people people ( I have seen) work in closed studios but they have a hood/fan. and an A.C. going? That cant be good... talking very small space too, not a large class room size studio
There are ideal exhaust systems which are pretty much text book.

Then there are adequate set ups which I wouldn't even call a 'system'.

Then there are the set ups that are totally inadequate and do not address the issues of fresh replacement air coming in over the back of the shoulders ( from behind) and CAPTURED contaminated fumes from the work area that are exhausted to the outside. This is what most lampworkers have, inadequate set ups that are not well thought out or studied for cause and effects.

Last edited by Lorraine Chandler; 2013-08-25 at 9:39am.
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  #9  
Old 2013-08-25, 6:07am
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Ahem...

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...php?f=22&t=150
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...php?f=12&t=273

Dale
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  #10  
Old 2014-08-26, 8:48am
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the second link is "da bomb", thank you Dale!!!

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  #11  
Old 2015-04-23, 1:43pm
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I'm back after a seasonal hiatus (winter is too cold to torch in what is essentially a shed!). I'm having another issue with my ventilation. I have this fan:



I hang it in front of an open window, no screen. It has 4,000 cfms! I know, with that many cfm's, it should be sucking ME out the window! But I've noticed the first 2 times that I torched that my hands get almost unbearable hot when I get about 6" from the flame. This makes it hard to do detail work. I'm also assuming that if the heat isn't being sucked out, then neither are the fumes. OMG. I'm SO tired of ventilation issues! I can't even say how many fans and setups we've been through.

This is what my studio looks like:


What I'd really like to do is to take out the window and install one of these buggers:

5,460 cfm's but I'm wondering if that would be overkill. Can I get it on a "dimmer" switch, so I can turn it down? Maybe not. And honestly, is it the best fan for the space? Plus, knocking out a window, getting a new fan, paying someone to install it..... what happens if it doesn't "work" for me??

And so, ventilation guru's, I turn to you guys. Give me your advice, please? Give me a "perfect world" setup. Think I should bust out that window? What do I need to do? If you had about $2,000 to work it out, what would you do? We happen to have a little extra cash right now, so if there was ever a time to work this out, now is the time, and I've got to figure it out before we spend the moolah on something else, which obviously wouldn't be as important as MY ventilation!
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Last edited by AVTrout; 2015-04-23 at 1:53pm.
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  #12  
Old 2015-04-23, 4:36pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
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I like my current system. Overhead steel 4ft X 4ft hood on chains. Short 10" rigid ducting with a minimum of turns running through my wall outside. Large sufficient squirrel cage fan on the other side of the wall. Open door and twin open bay Windows 10ft behind me open to outside for a supply of clean air. System cost me about 1200 installed. There really is no free lunch as far as this is concerned but it also isnt rocket science.
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  #13  
Old 2015-04-24, 6:13pm
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I wonder if the heat you are feeling in your hands is more radiant heat than hot air.

No amount of air flow that I know of will keep your hands from feeling radiant heat.

Do you think you could be running the flame bushier and or hotter than you remember from before your hiatus?

You might get some relief from this by pushing more oxygen and in turn cooling the flame a bit.

As for ventilation, building a shroud around that wire cage fan in the window should make it more efficient at moving the air you want to get outside. You could test it cheaply by using sheet Styrofoam insulation to make a shroud.

The opening on the sides allow fans like that to recirculate a whole lot of air from the blowing side right back to the suction side over and over again.

Do you still have that hood? If you could set it up on bricks and block the sides so the back was open and centered on the window over your torch and push it against the wall and that would focus the air going out the fan in the window with a shroud around it and it would pull makeup air over your shoulders.
It would also capture the fumes from the flames and direct them out through the fan.

If you don't still have the hood you could make the "Barley type" box that Dale M pointed to in post number 6. That Styrofoam sheet and duct tape or aluminum tape will work for sides and you can then smoke test it and see if you think it will work.

This doesn't have to be permanent but it will give you something that should work until you decide exactly what kind of permanent set up you want.

The other two links Dale pointed to have details for figuring it out. Don't forget to make sure you have make up air coming in to match or double what you are trying suck out.

I know its a pain in the ass but you only have to learn it once.
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Last edited by Speedslug; 2015-04-24 at 6:23pm.
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