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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2006-11-17, 10:44am
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Bead Maker / Instructor
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2006
Location: Tuscany, Italy
Posts: 135
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Help! My White Gold Leaf is...Gold
OK, pressures on - I've got a big bead order, a large part of which is beads with White Gold Leaf.
I wasn't overly concerned about it previously, even though I've worked primarily with Gold Leaf and Silver Foil. The White Gold Leaf experience I've had has always been encased white gold, which protects the gold and it's color. However, this white gold needs to be left exposed with a crackle finish. Of course that's no problem with the Gold gold leaf but I'm finding that my White gold leaf becomes gold as I heat it enough to create the crackle effect.
Any suggestions?
Thanks so much - Tim
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2006-11-17, 11:12am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Dec 27, 2005
Location: Rhode Island
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What's the base color you're putting it directly on?
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2006-11-17, 11:30am
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Bead Maker / Instructor
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2006
Location: Tuscany, Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palestrina
What's the base color you're putting it directly on?
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Hi - Thanks for taking the time to respond.
5 transparent colors have been ordered: (All are Effetre) Peridot, Red, Diamond, Rose, Aqua. I've tried (and failed) 2 colors: Red and Peridot. It seems that I can only get to a certain point before the silver-color becomes gold. Unfortuently this is well before the point where it would crackle. I'm really trying to work it slow and out of the flame but have yet to be successful.
Thanks!
Tim
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2006-11-17, 11:44am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 27, 2005
Location: Florida
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You could get paladium if you want a white gold look. It is not exactly the same silvery color but it will work just like gold. You can also get some wonderful peacock colors too if you cook it.
Just a back up idea?
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2006-11-17, 9:07pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 05, 2006
Location: Southern California
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I was wondering- do you cook the palladium leaf, then encase to get the peacock colors? Or is that only with palladium on the surface?
Thanks!
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2006-11-17, 9:57pm
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novembersfyre everywhere
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Join Date: Jun 11, 2005
Location: Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeltDown
Hi - Thanks for taking the time to respond.
5 transparent colors have been ordered: (All are Effetre) Peridot, Red, Diamond, Rose, Aqua. I've tried (and failed) 2 colors: Red and Peridot. It seems that I can only get to a certain point before the silver-color becomes gold. Unfortuently this is well before the point where it would crackle. I'm really trying to work it slow and out of the flame but have yet to be successful.
Thanks!
Tim
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Can you case the peridot and red in clear and then put the white gold on top of the clear casing? My guess would be that white gold is made by alloying gold with silver and the silver is reacting with those two colors. By putting a layer of clear between the color and the gold you might have better success.
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2006-11-17, 11:33pm
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Bead Maker / Instructor
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryBeth
Can you case the peridot and red in clear and then put the white gold on top of the clear casing? My guess would be that white gold is made by alloying gold with silver and the silver is reacting with those two colors. By putting a layer of clear between the color and the gold you might have better success.
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Very innovative suggestion! I'll give it a try - Thanks!
Tim
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2006-11-18, 7:56am
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McAfee Art Glass
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Join Date: Aug 31, 2005
Location: Weirton, West Virginia
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White gold as a mixture of gold and silver, silver has a melting point of around 1760 deg F and gold at about 1950 deg F, I think that what is happening with your unencased white gold is you are vaporizing the silver content and being left with the gold
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2006-11-19, 5:55am
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Bead Maker / Instructor
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryBeth
Can you case the peridot and red in clear and then put the white gold on top of the clear casing? My guess would be that white gold is made by alloying gold with silver and the silver is reacting with those two colors. By putting a layer of clear between the color and the gold you might have better success.
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Right after responding to your post it hit me that your solution wouldn't work after all because all the beads I'm making are hollow. That extra layer of glass would just add too much girth
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2006-11-19, 6:01am
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Bead Maker / Instructor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltik
White gold as a mixture of gold and silver, silver has a melting point of around 1760 deg F and gold at about 1950 deg F, I think that what is happening with your unencased white gold is you are vaporizing the silver content and being left with the gold
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Hi - Thanks so much for your response. What you say makes sense, however I can't seem to avoid burning off the silver. I've worked it high and away, VERY carefully but the leaf becomes gold-colored much to soon to ever realize the crackle effect.
Is there such a thing as low-grade white gold? Seriously, the only time I've been able to avoid the "change" under any circumstances with this white gold is when I encase right away. However, since the order calls for nothing but hollow beads, encasement isn't an option.
Tim
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2006-11-19, 6:55am
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Senior Member
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Actually, you can case hollow beads. I do it all the time, sometimes three layers. Of course if they are supposed to be exceptionally small this could cause a problem as it does make the bead larger.
Just curiously, because I don't know the answer, is there a reason white gold was used instead of silver if what you want is the silver look?
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2006-11-19, 11:52am
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Bead Maker / Instructor
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
Just curiously, because I don't know the answer, is there a reason white gold was used instead of silver if what you want is the silver look?
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Because the client wanted the crackle effect of gold leaf.
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2006-11-19, 12:42pm
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I'm a lilac!
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Join Date: Jun 09, 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,793
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My only suggestions are to try palladium, or to get some COE 120 glass and see if you can retain the whiteness with the lower working temperature of 120.
I've been burned before too by taking an order for something I hadn't made before and finding I couldn't do it as simply/inexpensively as I'd assumed... it sucks. I hope you get it worked out!
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2006-11-19, 3:21pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 04, 2005
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There are two distinct types of white gold. "Nickel based" and "Palladium based"
And they have very distinct personalities and properties.
Nickel based is the most common type in many countries (but not Europe) - as its cheaper and makes a much harder alloy & the melting point is typically under 1000C
Palladium based white golds cost more - are heavier and softer & take more heat to melt - typically around 1200 to 1300 C (Depending on the ratio of other alloyed metals)
I have no idea which one is typically used for gold leaf - so the above might be nice to know but absolutely no use in this problem.
Would be nice to know if you can solve this one - its an interesting situation.
Edit: I was discussing this issue after posting this - and it was pointed out to me that theres a third family of white gold alloy which uses Manganese as the whitener. the downside of Manganese white golds is that they can react during heating and produce a yellow oxidation\tarnish layer. Sounds somewhat consistent with the experience you describe.
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2006-11-21, 12:35am
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Bead Maker / Instructor
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2006
Location: Tuscany, Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navarre
Would be nice to know if you can solve this one - its an interesting situation.
Edit: I was discussing this issue after posting this - and it was pointed out to me that theres a third family of white gold alloy which uses Manganese as the whitener. the downside of Manganese white golds is that they can react during heating and produce a yellow oxidation\tarnish layer. Sounds somewhat consistent with the experience you describe.
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Boy does that fit my situation to a "T"!
In the end of it, I never did come up with a true solution, as we changed the look completely. I presented to the client a "hollow" bead that has a thin tube core encased in white gold leaf, onto which I built the hollow bead. The effect is pretty as it magnifies the leaf and the leaf remains white as I never had to heat it directly.
As for my "white" gold leaf - It's still usable when encased but I certainly won't be buying anymore of it!
Thanks to one and all for your help - Tim
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