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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #601  
Old 2009-02-07, 11:19am
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Asil4 Asil4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Carolyn M View Post
I also question the testing process for this glass. The owners admit they are newbies in making glass beads and I would like to know how this glass stands up over time. Does the high percentage of impurities/bubbles etc mean that beads will crack in 6 months/a year/?
Quote:
Oh, and Daniel, glass manufacturers use highly experienced beadmakers as testers because they are respected within the community, know what they are doing and will report back objectively. That way any glitches in the glass can be worked out before selling it to the general public
This is confusing to me. Do the other glass manufacturers wait 6 months or a year or more, to release their new glass, after it is tested by experienced beadmakers, to insure that they won't crack? Or is the testing done by the experienced beadmakers enough?
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  #602  
Old 2009-02-07, 11:26am
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I can't buy into the "trickle down" philosophy.

at one time in the US, free people fed and housed anyone who had a drop of african blood in them because they owned them, and supporters of slavery argued that the black man was better employed as a slave because his condition had been improved. whether or not his condition was improved is secondary to the question of whether slavery is morally acceptable. I think the same applies here.

I believe I was the first to voice concerns about cheap glass coming from a country with known workforce issues. I didn't do it with a view to making the Devardi distributors look bad. I'm not a tester for anyone, I'm not that good. I just want to know what the factory conditions are like before I buy the glass, because of what I already know about working conditions in India.

affluent countries throwing money at cheap manufacturing will not have an automatic positive effect for the people working in the factories. it could have a negative effect if we don't actively encourage change by choosing to do business with companies that make an effort to provide safe conditions.

I'm glad the Devardi distributors plan to visit the factory. I'm looking forward to reading about what they find. If they are in fact supporting change in India, I can get behind that. if it's business as usual, then I won't buy Devardi glass.
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  #603  
Old 2009-02-07, 11:30am
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Originally Posted by J&M View Post
It seems to me that you should sit back, relax, go make some beautiful glass art and see what the TRUTH is when Natasha visits the factory in the near future like she said a few days ago. THEN make all the "I'll not buy your glass" comments if what you ASSUME to be true, is indeed a fact.

I really hate being told I should go do something, which is essentially a veiled way of saying "shut up". I think you should let people discuss the issue and have an opinion as they see fit.
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  #604  
Old 2009-02-07, 11:45am
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Originally Posted by miahawk View Post
I can't buy into the "trickle down" philosophy.

at one time in the US, free people fed and housed anyone who had a drop of african blood in them because they owned them, and supporters of slavery argued that the black man was better employed as a slave because his condition had been improved. whether or not his condition was improved is secondary to the question of whether slavery is morally acceptable. I think the same applies here.
I do believe the indian people are not slaves. They have a choice to work there or not. I believe they would rather have a job and earn a wage than die of starvation.
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  #605  
Old 2009-02-07, 11:46am
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I do believe the indian people are not slaves. They have a choice to work there or not. I believe they would rather have a job and earn a wage than die of starvation.
you missed the point of my post.
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  #606  
Old 2009-02-07, 11:57am
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you missed the point of my post.
You were speaking of the trickle down effect in the beginning of your post, I was just responding to that.
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  #607  
Old 2009-02-07, 11:59am
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Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You now know about fining, sort of. When glass batch that has been mixed with the appropriate oxides for color is first brought up to temperature and melted for the first time there are bubbles, lots and lots and lots of bubbles, gases given off by the chemicals used in making glass. The glass must be brought to a high temperature before fining begins. As the fining process continues the glass is tested by taking small gathers out of it to see if the bubbles are gone. When the bubbles are gone, then the glass can be used.

How to pull a rod. There are two ways I am familiar with. One way is to take a punty (metal rod, solid, no hole) gather glass on it and tacking on to the heated glass with another punty or with whatever (I've seen diamond shears used the most - making a knob at the end and then pulling) you pull the rod, just as a stringer. Just as in pulling a stringer, you can have uneven pulls, but for the most part if the rod pullers know what they are doing they can come away with, say, 20 or 30 feet of straight rod. Once the long rod is cooled somewhat, it is cut into shorter rods and placed in a kiln to anneal. As you cut the rods, and you get closer to the punties on each end, just as in a stringer the rods get thicker and thicker. The second way (and the way I think may result in the bubbles that run the lenght of the rod) is to blow a small bubble, gather glass from the furnace over the bubble and when the gather is large enough, pull the rod. Usually the rod puller has a great deal of glass on the end of the bubble and this is where the rod is pulled from. As the glass is pulled from the bubble, sometimes the bubble is pulled also. (I used to make tube beads this way on a torch, purposely incorporating the bubble) When the bubble is incorporated in the pull, then you get a bubble that runs the length of the rod.

Seeds, which are unmixed components of the glass, or fine bubbles in rods are substandard. To me the bubble running the length of the rod is also substandard. In recent years I have seen none of this, but I started using nothing but Bullseye years ago and, as far as I am aware, none of this exists in Bullseye glass.

If the glass is not brought up to a high enough temperature, then some of the glass components throughout the furnace or pot will not melt, those seeds are born. If the glass temperature is not brought up high enough, the bubbles will not be carried up and out of the melt. Foaming is the result of insufficient heat to melt the glass.

I hope this helps.
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  #608  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:07pm
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Originally Posted by miahawk View Post

I really hate being told I should go do something, which is essentially a veiled way of saying "shut up". I think you should let people discuss the issue and have an opinion as they see fit.
Here we go again. ASSUMING. I didn't tell you or anyone else to "shut up". Never mentioned your name... in fact I never even thought of you while I was writing down my thoughts. People are free to discuss anything they want. Veiled threats without full knowledge of the subject are what is ruining this forum. If that's the way you want to roll, then by all means, go right ahead. You can read into this whatever you want. I certainly don't care.

Feel free to flame away.
I hope you have a great day!

Jack
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  #609  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:14pm
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Originally Posted by pam View Post
Seeds, which are unmixed components of the glass, or fine bubbles in rods are substandard. To me the bubble running the length of the rod is also substandard. In recent years I have seen none of this, but I started using nothing but Bullseye years ago and, as far as I am aware, none of this exists in Bullseye glass.
I have not seen any of it in BE either. I have not bought much BE but I've yet to see any issue with any I've bought or seen.

I have seen all of these issues with Italian glass all of which was bought as first quality.

I do not believe that all glass producers use the same tolerance as to what is a first quality glass.
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  #610  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:15pm
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Originally Posted by miahawk View Post
affluent countries throwing money at cheap manufacturing will not have an automatic positive effect for the people working in the factories. it could have a negative effect if we don't actively encourage change by choosing to do business with companies that make an effort to provide safe conditions.
What negative effects?

I propose that providing safer conditions costs money. Money that can't be earned by cutting off the very business you claim to be concerned about.
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  #611  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:19pm
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I think it's easier to respond to your remarks, Jack, within the context of the post, as you did.

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Originally Posted by J&M View Post
Jack, I'm sorry if you took our posts as "unfriendly" as that is not the case at all. For the most part glass bead artists, as many other artists in other media, are very concerned about the conditions of peoples involved in bringing our materials to us. In every other glass that we buy we have asked for and been given the information, and the business owners have been honest with us.
Has Natasha not been honest and answered every question she CAN answer right now?Jack, I would never assume that Natasha has not been honest, other than she will not disclose the owners, location or anything about the factory. However, she has not been forthcoming with any information regarding the factory.

We know about all the factories and the owners of the factories and the working conditions within those factories. These things are important to us as a group.
It's important to everyone... but that's not the issue here. The issue here is having some people condem this particular glass distributor because they assume. You're automatically assuming the worst. That's not right. Don't threaten "not to buy their glass" because of an assumption.First of all, I didn't threaten not to buy the glass. I would never buy it, but I also don't buy CIM and a few other glasses. And I am assuming because we have no factual information to differentiate this factory from all the others in India, and you are assuming the best because.............okay, I'm not quite sure why.

The quality of the product is also very important to us and the honesty of those selling those products.
Have they not been honest? If not, HOW DO YOU KNOW? Natasha came right out and said that this particular glass isn't the greatest. She's been forthright and answered every question she is able to answer right now... OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You people just won't let up.I am not "you people". I have had no private conversations with others who have posted here. I am me. If you want to say "you" and indicate me, that is fine, but I am not "you people" and I would never refer to you in that way so as to lump you in a group of people. She only said it was the greatest glass after it was pointed out. At first it was a great glass made with ancient formulas.

I'm not quite sure why you feel this glass seller should be treated any different than every other glass seller. I have not seen one rude post in this whole thread. People have been posting the truth, perhaps it is an ugly truth, but it is the truth.
I don't feel this particular glass seller should be treated any different than every other glass seller. Is it the truth about Devardi Glass? We don't know yet. Again, you're ASSUMING it's the truth.And you are assuming it isn't. My assumptions are based on facts regarding the glassmaking business in India while yours is based on.............what?

Given that the seller/importer will not give us information, then the only assumption that can be made is that this factory is like others in India.
That's the problem in a nutshell. You're basing your "facts" on an ASSUMPTION. Do you understand what that means? Do you know what can happen if you assume something is true, without knowing for sure that it is true? These folks are starting a business and the threats of "I'm not buying this glass" because of an assumption is cruel and rude. Some of you people have a great influence on others here, and by saying things like "I won't buy your glass because it was made by malnourished children" is just wrong because we don't know that to be true yet about Devardi Glass. So, the way I see our differences, Jack, is if we see a tire being sold for $20 bucks, you are going to grab it and put it on your car, where I will be looking up the brand, asking about the quality of the rubber used in the tire, etc. Yes, I will be assuming that the tire isn't as good as the ones selling for a hundred bucks each, and you are assuming that it is.

Do you really feel that working malnourished children until they die of silicosis is unimportant and should be left hidden because it interferes with you confidently buying a lower quality, inexpensive glass?

Of course not! But, again, (), HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS PARTICULAR GLASS IS IS MADE BY MALNOURISHED CHILDREN? You're ASSUMING again.And you are assuming that they are not! My assumptions, once again, are based on factual information about the working conditions in glass factories in India. What are your assumptions based on?

It seems to me that you should sit back, relax, go make some beautiful glass art and see what the TRUTH is when Natasha visits the factory in the near future like she said a few days ago. THEN make all the "I'll not buy your glass" comments if what you ASSUME to be true, is indeed a fact.Well, I never saw a post that said she was visiting the factory, however perhaps it was deleted along with the other factual information contained in part of this thread.

Remember... innocent until proven guilty... or does that NOT apply here at LE?

For the last time,
Jack
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  #612  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:20pm
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I have not seen any of it in BE either. I have not bought much BE but I've yet to see any issue with any I've bought or seen.

I have seen all of these issues with Italian glass all of which was bought as first quality.

I do not believe that all glass producers use the same tolerance as to what is a first quality glass.
Moretti and Vetrofond have definitely had their share of "substandard". Bubbles in any random color at any random time. "Rocky" rubino (which is really a nice color, once you pick out the rocks). Lauscha clear which may or may not be compatible.

BE has had its problems, but to their credit they tend to pull a color and take time to fix it instead of just selling it. I haven't used BE in years because it's expensive and the palette is too limited for my tastes, but the quality is definitely there.

Oh, and I really need to jump in and defend CIM here. Again, some folks are painting with entirely too broad a brush. Kathy (the owner of CIM) has excellent information on her website about the condition of the factory, the family the runs it, and the people who work there. Take some time, write to her, talk to her, and stop the knee-jerk attitudes just because you hear the word "China." CIM glass is excellent. So far, I've observed much higher quality in her glass that most of the Italian stuff. She supports her testers, encourages good and bad observations, and sincerely wants to produce the best glass possible.

I don't know yet, but I'm really hoping that this kind of caring can and will spread. Devardi could be the next CIM, with some useful input and encouragement.
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  #613  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:29pm
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Originally Posted by DesertDreamer View Post
Moretti and Vetrofond have definitely had their share of "substandard". Bubbles in any random color at any random time. "Rocky" rubino (which is really a nice color, once you pick out the rocks). Lauscha clear which may or may not be compatible.

BE has had its problems, but to their credit they tend to pull a color and take time to fix it instead of just selling it. I haven't used BE in years because it's expensive and the palette is too limited for my tastes, but the quality is definitely there.
There is a dark lapis I love the color of that is full of rocks also. love the color however (its has a faint greenish tone to it)

I'm thinking from what I've seen here for results that the worst of this glass from India is not any more difficult than some I have had from Italy. I well remember throwing out 2 pounds of anise white because every rod I touched exploded down to nothing, preheating did not even help it. I no longer bother with anise white, I think there will be colors in every line that I will decide are not worth the trouble they cause me. Its certainly been true so far of every glass line I've tried.
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  #614  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:33pm
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I don't know yet, but I'm really hoping that this kind of caring can and will spread. Devardi could be the next CIM, with some useful input and encouragement.
This is certainly a possibility. I think it is too early yet to make any solid conclusions, there simply has not been time for the issues to be addressed at the source, if indeed there are any issues, which also seems unproven. Suspected is not the same as proven.

I am curious to see if any of the working issues are addressed in future batches.
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  #615  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:36pm
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I know Pam remembers the P.I.G. glass about as fondly as I do. (Indian glass distributed about 10 years ago.) So far, with the exception of the gray I got, I have to say this is worlds better.

I'm going to keep trying and testing (I find that fun, anyway). I got a surprise yesterday. I thought I got two rods of transparent red, but one of them was orange! A glorious, easy to strike, very transparent orange (despite a cloudy core in the rod, go figure). I'm finding myself wishing that these Indian manufacturers could get together with the Italians and explain what "easy to strike" really means.

It's definitely a stiffer glass, BTW. But I go back & forth between 96 and 104 glass, so I'm happy.

Oh, BTW, Rob...I just got 1/4 of Moretti cobalt lapis from Frantz. It's good again, at least this time. LOL And I think I got the same Anise white you did. Arrgh!
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  #616  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:38pm
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I find a lot of the assumptions going on in this thread to be a little disheartening. What is that saying about "assume"? "You make an ass out of u and me."

There seems to be a trend to "protect" lampworking from so called "bad" practices (or rudeness, or disrespect, etc etc) when in fact a lot of what is being railed against isn't as black or white as people want to pretend.

I too have suffered with scummy moretti clear, moretti rods that break every inch down a rod or shatter into chunks, or rods with stones in them, rods that boil, not to mention the inconsistant color from batch to batch. I've even gotten "intense black" that wasn't. And I've never seen any labled as "seconds".

And once again, it's the "need to assume the worst" and "this isn't what we want for our industry" kind of rhetoric that I've seen over and over, when in this case there is no proof of what's being claimed. Some people are choosing to assume the worst, and posting "truth" and "facts" which can't be proven to be connected to this company or this product, and quite a bit of it reads to me (whether you intended it or not) as shaming those who want to give these people the benefit of the doubt for now.

And mostly it seems to be that way because questions aren't being answered as quickly or as with as much detail as people crave. I'm in the group that consider it rude to ask personal business questions and demand answers, and when we dont' get them right away, then say we have to assume the worst and that kids are abused. Hell, I have a job where if I was to get on the phone and demand things that have been stated here, I would be fired. I don't think it's appropriate for customers to ask me what my wholesale source is when they're buying silver beads from me. For the most part, people aren't concerned with working conditions, they want to buy from my source. Are all of you complaining about the hesitation to name sources here, pleased with receiving those questions?

And furthermore, if it's acceptable to call into question the reputation of this business or this product, then how far do we go to "protect"??

Are you going to start warning people about the dangers of buying beads using "inferior glass", like people have with imported, mass produced beads? If a boro person makes pendants or marbles with glass they purchased as seconds, are you going to argue they shouldn't sell those as first quality?

If you want to continue that trend, should we be assuming that if many people haven't watched a lampworker work and can vouch for it, we must assume they don't kiln anneal?

I think everyone has the right to start a business and try to prove themselves to their target customers. If they are a good business, their reputation will grow. If they use unethical practices, it will become known.

But to make negative assumptions and judgements based on pure speculation, unproven with specific facts to back them up, is something I see a lot on this forum, whether it's about companies, people, and even beadmaker's motivations.

And personally, I find that very sad.

Last edited by Damselfly; 2009-02-07 at 12:41pm.
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  #617  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:44pm
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Oh, BTW, Rob...I just got 1/4 of Moretti cobalt lapis from Frantz. It's good again, at least this time. LOL And I think I got the same Anise white you did. Arrgh!
I've gotten more of the dark cobalt in, but have to say I'm still loving the color of the rocky batch. I haven't been working 104 coe in quite a while because its too soupy for my torch, but there are colors that I just have to hoard in case I ever do the hot head thing again and that rocky lapis is one of them. LOL hate the rocks, but love the color.

depends really on the glass as to what we will put up with. I'm thinking at $6 a pound I'll put up with a few bubbles.
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  #618  
Old 2009-02-07, 12:47pm
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Oh, and while my above post was aimed in general at the whole conversation, I'd like one more quick comment based on some thoughts brough up on "assuming", by Pam.

I don't think the $20 tire analogy is a fair one. I think a much more fair analogy is clothes. If you see $12 jeans and $35 jeans (and there are even $150 jeans), it's fair to think that the $12 jeans are inferior to the more expensive ones, and you may or may not be right. But are you really going to research the company that makes the $12 jeans?? I think most people just decide whether to buy them or not.

And sometimes I do buy those $12 jeans, because I can't afford the $35 ones. I wish I could only buy from people who make handmade clothes in my city, but I just can't.

Last edited by Damselfly; 2009-02-07 at 1:09pm.
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Old 2009-02-07, 1:16pm
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Oh, and while my above post was aimed in general at the whole conversation, I'd like one more quick comment based on some thoughts brough up on "assuming", by Pam.

I don't think the $20 tire analogy is a fair one. I think a much more fair analogy is clothes. If you see $12 jeans and $35 jeans (and there are even $150 jeans), it's fair to think that the $12 jeans are inferior to the more expensive ones, and you may or may not be right. But are you really going to research the company that makes the $12 jeans?? I think most people just decide whether to buy them or not.

And sometimes I do buy those $12 jeans, because I can't afford the $35 ones. I wish I could only buy from people who make handmade clothes in my city, but I just can't.
I think that's a pretty good analogy. In addition, who hasn't bought a pair of $35 jeans once, gone back several months later to buy more, and discovered they really aren't worth $35 the second time around (because the workmanship has deteriorated)? I've even bought high-end dresses or skirts a time or two and discovered that they weren't much better-made than something from a discount store. That really chapped my hide.

I've had the same expectation of relative quality for Italian & German glass for years, and keep having those particular assumptions abused. At least with the Indian glass I wasn't expecting much, so it's been a lot easier to be pleasantly surprised.
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  #620  
Old 2009-02-07, 1:36pm
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This has been brought up a bit already but, it seems that there is an inequitable standard being applied here.

I see so many posts about tools and so many folks are extremely enamored with Harbor Freight Tools and, purchase a lot of them.

Do you realize where these tools come from? Do you bother to look into it? Do you call Harbor Freight's corporate office and demand that they tell you the name of the manufacturer in the country of origin? Do you apply the same assumptions to that tool, that are being applied to this glass because you didn't get as in-depth an answer as you demanded?

There are terrible working conditions for adults and children in many countries, for many products. If you want to look at tools, alone, how much of the glass "work" could be accomplished without those tools? Yet, when someone oohs and aahs over a set of dapping tools or metal stamps or anything else they bought for a good price at Harbor Freight, do you jump in and talk about the poor working conditions for adults and children in the countries where those tools were manufactured and assume, in absence of true facts, (that Harbor Freight would never give you) that they were made on the blood of children?

Some of you might think that Daniel's post was harsh and wrong. Some have also stated that his wife wasn't treated rudely here. Those are opinions and, it seems that here at LE, all it takes to create a fact is a sampling of opinions. Natasha felt she was treated rudely and so did Daniel. Others have stated that they, too felt she was treated rudely. Are they wrong, just because the number of opinions to the opposite out numbers theirs? That is crazymaking.

It's amazing to me how there is such declaration of being "right" about anything around here just because several other people hold the same opinion as though it's a numbers game.
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  #621  
Old 2009-02-07, 1:50pm
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yellowbird yellowbird is offline
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Here we go again. ASSUMING. I didn't tell you or anyone else to "shut up". Never mentioned your name... in fact I never even thought of you while I was writing down my thoughts. People are free to discuss anything they want. Veiled threats without full knowledge of the subject are what is ruining this forum. If that's the way you want to roll, then by all means, go right ahead. You can read into this whatever you want. I certainly don't care.

Feel free to flame away.
I hope you have a great day!

Jack
Jack you need to stop playing police .hope you are going to take this the right way and not assume anything.
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  #622  
Old 2009-02-07, 2:19pm
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pittypat pittypat is offline
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So, how many of you have the Jim Moore coring tool??? Have you sent it back because the base is made in China or have you asked Mr. Moore, a very nice person in my opinion, exactly what factory they come from?
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  #623  
Old 2009-02-07, 2:29pm
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Jack you need to stop playing police .hope you are going to take this the right way and not assume anything.
Just how am I playing police??? This is absolutely crazy! In fact it's sooo crazy, it's starting to get boring... like talking to a brick wall. You're the one who started this banter with me, and I never even mentioned your name or referenced you in any way, shape, or form. You must be feeling guilty or something. Who knows.

I just don't like seeing people being put down for no reason at all until there are FACTS to back it up.

Thanks,
Jack
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  #624  
Old 2009-02-07, 2:59pm
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glasshouse glasshouse is offline
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Jack, please don't take offense but you're not doing them any favors. You rarely post and when you do, you invariably put down LE, say
you can't believe the people here and how rude we all are (because we're all the same, all 10,000 of us, baaaa) and then you say
you're never coming back and you're done with LE for good because we are ALL so TERRIBLE...and yet here you are again.
I actually agree with your last statement, I don't like seeing a company trashed based on conjecture and people's opinions without
substantiating facts, but I can also do it without painting everyone with the same brush. I hope you can hear what I am saying here
without taking it as a personal attack.
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  #625  
Old 2009-02-07, 3:00pm
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I have defended Natasha and Daniel without pointing fingers or calling names. I have also actually tried the glass. There are a few colors
that I won't use-not up to my standards. There are also some that are simply gorgeous and the glass quality is as good as the other
imported glass I buy. Don't buy the Butterscotch- it's terrible! More for me!

My father is an art glassblower. He started in 1970. Back then, to blow glass, you had to build your own furnaces, bench, glory hole.
Mix your own batch, make your own colors. There is a lot more to it than has been posted here.

My dad's furnace was unbelievably primitive. He was making glass the way that it's been made for hundreds of years. I've learned so much
about glass from him that I haven't found anywhere else.

The quality of the glass my dad made was astounding. He won many awards, Best Of Show in the Mill Valley Art Festival, a commission for
his goblets (300 of them) for the DeYoung Museum in SF. All made in his tiny backyard studio, in a gas-fired furnace with just the
very basics for melting glass. Having a state of the art studio does not necessarily translate into having better glass, just as having a
primitive studio doesn't mean your glass will be inferior.
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  #626  
Old 2009-02-07, 3:13pm
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I also wanted to say that a few weeks ago after I bought the glass, I read Natasha's personal story that she posted on one of her
auctions. It was so touching that I actually cried, and I am not a big crier. After reading about what she experienced first-hand growing
up in an impoverished country, I am sure that she would not be buying this glass unless she truly felt that purchasing it would improve the
lives of the people who make it.
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  #627  
Old 2009-02-07, 3:14pm
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I tried to thank you to the answer to my question earlier. I was also trying to tell you That Ive seen a few moose in my day growing up in Madawaska Me. and Edmundston New Brunswick. For some reason when I hit the quote button It would not let me reply. Am I the only one or has anybody else noticed that a lot of these people were the cause for the woodshed being closed to the public. Then they moved to the bathroom and now they are here. I could be wrong about this but check out the bathroom which usually gets about 50 hits a day, it seems a little slow today. There where a lot of great people in the woodshed and there are a lot in the bathroom and then there were those people who have found a way to bring their little group to cause problems in this forum. This part of the forum was always great, people helped each other out, every one was nice, we don't need this. They started on Jim and when they could not prove he was totally bad person for responding to a question asked by a member of ours they moved on to Natasha, and don't say you have not been up her ass. My recommendation would be to open the woodshed back up and get these people out of here.
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  #628  
Old 2009-02-07, 3:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittypat View Post
So, how many of you have the Jim Moore coring tool??? Have you sent it back because the base is made in China or have you asked Mr. Moore, a very nice person in my opinion, exactly what factory they come from?
Better yet, did anyone require that if Jim Moore was going to sell any tools made in China; that he travel to China and tour the factories those tools are made in, in order for anyone to believe that they are not made on the blood of children?
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  #629  
Old 2009-02-07, 3:16pm
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Sorry I could not sign my thread I must of run out of space.
Thank you to all the people who have answered my questions about the glass.
Bob Proulx
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  #630  
Old 2009-02-07, 3:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&M View Post
Just how am I playing police??? This is absolutely crazy! In fact it's sooo crazy, it's starting to get boring... like talking to a brick wall. You're the one who started this banter with me, and I never even mentioned your name or referenced you in any way, shape, or form. You must be feeling guilty or something. Who knows.

I just don't like seeing people being put down for no reason at all until there are FACTS to back it up.

Thanks,
Jack
I'm glad you're bored! Me too...so since I have nothing to do right now...I'll play.

You have mentioned everyone by referring to "you people" and facts? What facts have you laid out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J&M View Post
LAMPWORK ETC.
I have much better things to do than read all this back-and-forth nastiness.
This "Forum" has turned into a very crummy place to be unless you're in the "upper class" of bead artists, "bead police", or post all day long every day of the week.

Whatever happened to innocent before proven guilty? Whatever happened to the lively and FRIENDLY banter about glass and how to work it? Apparently that doesn't matter anymore.

Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by J&M View Post
You people just won't let up.

It seems to me that you should sit back, relax, go make some beautiful glass art and see what the TRUTH is when Natasha visits the factory in the near future like she said a few days ago. THEN make all the "I'll not buy your glass" comments if what you ASSUME to be true, is indeed a fact.


For the last time,
Jack
The post above...where you chastise "you people" (us) about assumptions....um, all you are doing is also making assumptions.

Oh...and telling people to drop it....yes, that is what that comment says to people. Go make beads; shut up and quit talking about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J&M View Post
Here we go again. ASSUMING. I didn't tell you or anyone else to "shut up". Never mentioned your name... in fact I never even thought of you while I was writing down my thoughts. People are free to discuss anything they want. Veiled threats without full knowledge of the subject are what is ruining this forum. If that's the way you want to roll, then by all means, go right ahead. You can read into this whatever you want. I certainly don't care.

Feel free to flame away.
I hope you have a great day!

Jack
You love assuming don't you? Yes you did...you told "us" to drop it. Now you say to discuss anything we want.

Wow, I'm glad I have your permission to talk!

Where are the veiled threats to people? And since you are so worried about this forum and it being ruined...not to mention how much you dislike it...AND you keep saying that you are leaving...

why are you still here? Seriously.... you seem to dislike us..."you people".... you constantly say you are leaving.... why do you come back? Just to keep fanning the flames?

Oh wait...I forgot! You're bored! That's why...you don't care you are just bored.






I do have a question for some of you regarding the stones and other stuff in Italian/German or any other glass. I've been working with rods (in the flame for 4 years; in stained glass for about 7 or I have never had any inclusions in any glass other than rocky rubino. Were these marked seconds? Just curious since I have never come across any.

I guess maybe I am just very lucky.
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