Too Extreme? - Page 2

CD Lampwork · #31 2012-04-11, 9:30am

Okay, Mike's test doesn't seem that extreme to me. If we suspect a problem we stick the bead in the freezer for a few hours then quickly warm them up under hot water. We don't typically drop a bead from 4", but I'd be seriously worried if it didn't survive that short drop. And it seldom has to do with annealing. Usually our concern has to do with compatibility. With the number of manufactures of 104 COE out there a test once in a while really makes sense.

Deanna and I have been making beads, murrine, and marbles for 12 years, 7+ years as our full time gig. We've seen all kinds of weird stuff happen. And yes as a matter of fact we DO guarantee our beads. And we HAVE seen beads and marbles crack weeks after we made them. Glass compatibility, picking up the wrong rod of glass, raku and other semi-compatible combos, funky problems with the kiln in the middle of the night (funky relays), there are reasons to test.

Back in the ISGB forum days the above responses would have been exactly the opposite, everyone saying yes do it, test, and only a handful saying it was too extreme.

patezd · #32 2012-04-11, 9:35am

I agree Leigh. Now, if NASA was considering these beads for their new "Beads on the Moon" program.........I can totally see that.

swamper · #33 2012-04-11, 9:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeadBlossoms

If I am not mistaken, Grace Beads has this on her etsy site - she says out of many lampworkers beads, her's were the only one's to pass the test. A bit vague on who did the test.

http://www.etsy.com/people/gracebeads

Giggle

Angel · #34 2012-04-12, 1:35pm

Is there a foundation somewhere for abused beads? My beads only would have to endure what I have - and boiling or iced water aren't my favourites for myself.

I always tell my customers that it is glass, no metal or plastic. It CAN break, if a necklace falls to the floor in the bathroom, or somewhere else with hard floor. But not by itself - my beads are properly annealed.

Angela

flaming_fools · #35 2012-04-12, 2:35pm

I used a new test yesterday!!! Had just finished a great bead, looked at it, and after all the flame polishing was doing my usual routine of waving it in the air, pop in flame, and then put into the kiln.

During the waving in the air part, got distracted and bead mandrel and all went flying, landing on mexican paver floor about 4 feet away. Amazingly enough, the bead was fine!!! Most of the bead release came off the mandrell, but the bead did not pick up any of it, nor any crud from the floor (our studio is on back porch, open to elements). So picked it up, waved through the flame and put in kiln. This morning it came out just fine!

So I will now add that to my routine - a nice underhand toss through the air across the porch.

Polgarra · #36 2012-04-12, 2:57pm

Do they mean you have to perform this test on every one of the beads? Or do they mean test a random selection to show that they would survive this test?

simvet02 · #37 2012-04-12, 3:18pm

I'm waiting for Mike's punchline...LOL

Kalera · #38 2012-04-12, 3:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikefrantz

Maybe somebody can help me. Does the following testing for a 12mm soft glass bead seem extreme?

Drop cold beads into boiling water for 5 minutes, them in ice water for 5 minutes and then dropped four inches onto a steel plate.

Mike

That seems very extreme.

Kalera · #39 2012-04-12, 3:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CD Lampwork

Okay, Mike's test doesn't seem that extreme to me. If we suspect a problem we stick the bead in the freezer for a few hours then quickly warm them up under hot water. We don't typically drop a bead from 4", but I'd be seriously worried if it didn't survive that short drop. And it seldom has to do with annealing. Usually our concern has to do with compatibility. With the number of manufactures of 104 COE out there a test once in a while really makes sense.

Deanna and I have been making beads, murrine, and marbles for 12 years, 7+ years as our full time gig. We've seen all kinds of weird stuff happen. And yes as a matter of fact we DO guarantee our beads. And we HAVE seen beads and marbles crack weeks after we made them. Glass compatibility, picking up the wrong rod of glass, raku and other semi-compatible combos, funky problems with the kiln in the middle of the night (funky relays), there are reasons to test.

Back in the ISGB forum days the above responses would have been exactly the opposite, everyone saying yes do it, test, and only a handful saying it was too extreme.

It's the boiling to ice water that sounds extreme to me.

glasshouse · #40 2012-04-12, 3:43pm

10,000 beads- what do they want you to do, test every color combo possible between "104 COE" glass? All manufacturers? That sounds a little excessive. Plus we'd have to wait like a year for new colors to come out, waiting for the tests to be finished.

LynieG · #41 2012-04-12, 5:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by simvet02

I'm waiting for Mike's punchline...LOL

LOL me too!

Dragonfly Queen · #42 2012-04-12, 5:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat

I'd tell the loon to find another schmuck to make the beads.

I agree or tell them to make them themselves. Maybe its the same person that sampled the other persons beads.

CD Lampwork · #43 2012-04-12, 5:21pm

All right, I tried it. Cause let's face it, if you don't try the test you're just talking out your butt (something I have been known to do). My beads passed no problem. Both were transparent so easy to search for cracks. One was a pressed bullseye (90 COE) bead with a CZ plunged into it (if anything's going to fail it's a CZ inclusion on a pressed bead) and the other was a 104 COE spotted bead. Both were relatively small, but then that's what Mike specified. 5 minutes in boiling water to 5 minutes in ice water (bowl 3/4 filled with ice, 1/4 water). Then I dropped them from 4 FEET, not 4 inches, onto a brick floor. Sorry, no hard steel plate in my studio. From my quick google search, ice water is 32 degrees F, boiling water 212 degrees F. A 180 degree swing. Yep, that's a lot. It would be like waking up in the morning, having the studio at 60 degrees and the kiln still at 240 degrees and deciding you had to see how they turned out. Nope, I don't do that. Still, I do know people who do.

So here's why I'm getting so incensed by this discussion. For years this community has been whining about suppliers buying from China and the low quality product that unsuspecting consumers are ending up with. Wonderful people like Wendy Rosen (The Rosen Show) have been ardently working on behalf of the art/craft community to get big operations to "buy American." And yet when a potential situation arises where a big order does come through, and the buyer is smart enough to ask for some standardized testing to PROVE that our work is better than the imports, how do we as an art community respond? Go buy from China? What does quality matter? Sorry folks, you can't have it both ways. If you want to stand by the high quality of our work, and hence the higher cost, you have to accept testing to PROVE our quality.

And no, I would not want to test all 10,000 beads. But if I did have a 10,000 bead order I would be randomly testing at min. 1%, or 100 beads. Whether it was asked for or not. Look at it this way. 10,000 beads would be a big supplier, not just a neighborhood bead shop. Wouldn't you as an artist want to KNOW the work you were suppling was of the highest quality?

Okay, I'll get off my soap box now.

Dragonfly Queen · #44 2012-04-12, 5:34pm

It wasn't the test itself, I've dropped beads before and they just bounce and I'm sure a properly annealed bead could withstand the temp test as well.

But...to have to test all 10,000 beads is a little extreme, don't you think?

Okay Mike what is the punch line.

DKS · #45 2012-04-12, 5:38pm

Putting a bead into boiling water, then ice water - would that introduce stress into a bead or does it have become molten before stress appears?

AmorphousDesigns · #46 2012-04-12, 5:43pm

OK, some fair points have been raised regarding "made in America, properly annealled" So, maybe we should start randomly sampling and testing our own stuff so we can also make this claim on our selling sites. If you can't beat em, join em.

If "independant" testing is needed, I can volunteer my busy little 4yo grandson to perform the tests (except the radiation, which does seem odd anyway) on mailed in samples and generate a nice little "Certificate of Compliance" for anyone interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeadBlossoms

If I am not mistaken, Grace Beads has this on her etsy site - she says out of many lampworkers beads, her's were the only one's to pass the test. A bit vague on who did the test.

http://www.etsy.com/people/gracebeads

CD Lampwork · #47 2012-04-12, 5:49pm

Inez, I agree, I wouldn't want to test all 10,000 beads. But then I can well imagine a surcharge for the test. It's not like making 10,000 beads is going to be "artistically fulfilling." We're talking production here. And a surcharge for such high quality testing is worth something. What, a penny a bead? That would be $100 for a pretty simple, quick test.

Denise, I can't answer the induced stress question with authority. But I would really doubt it. We all plunge room temperature glass into torch flames running, what, like 2K degrees? Then cool them to room temp to only again plunge them back into the flame. All while the section of rod we're holding remains close to room temp. Now there's some stress. And yet I still swear up a blue streak if the glass explodes on me.

flamingobeth · #48 2012-04-12, 5:54pm

Okay, so after much thought, I realize I purchase lead free, nickel free products so I can guarantee my customers do not have an adverse reaction to my jewelry. As a newbie, I guess the idea of testing my own beads was a bit scary. But if, as a so-called artist, I don't do any stress tests on my glass beads, I am holding myself to a lower standard than the other suppliers I purchase from. Time for some stress testing!

CD Lampwork · #49 2012-04-12, 5:55pm

There you go Elizabeth! I like it. Come to think of it, I often randomly test beads by dropping them on the floor too. Though I'm not sure "my husband randomly drops my beads" is going to help D with our marketing LOL.

But seriously, many of us have for a long time listed "properly annealed" as part of our general descriptions on etsy and ebay. Not sure about the "made in America," maybe I'll have to include a picture of my birth certificate?

CD Lampwork · #50 2012-04-12, 5:57pm

It'll make you feel better about your work Flamingobeth. And if they don't pass, it's usually just a matter of increasing your annealing schedule.

PerfectDeb · #51 2012-04-12, 6:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CD Lampwork

All right, I tried it. Cause let's face it, if you don't try the test you're just talking out your butt (something I have been known to do). My beads passed no problem. Both were transparent so easy to search for cracks. One was a pressed bullseye (90 COE) bead with a CZ plunged into it (if anything's going to fail it's a CZ inclusion on a pressed bead) and the other was a 104 COE spotted bead. Both were relatively small, but then that's what Mike specified. 5 minutes in boiling water to 5 minutes in ice water (bowl 3/4 filled with ice, 1/4 water). Then I dropped them from 4 FEET, not 4 inches, onto a brick floor. Sorry, no hard steel plate in my studio. From my quick google search, ice water is 32 degrees F, boiling water 212 degrees F. A 180 degree swing. Yep, that's a lot. It would be like waking up in the morning, having the studio at 60 degrees and the kiln still at 240 degrees and deciding you had to see how they turned out. Nope, I don't do that. Still, I do know people who do.

So here's why I'm getting so incensed by this discussion. For years this community has been whining about suppliers buying from China and the low quality product that unsuspecting consumers are ending up with. Wonderful people like Wendy Rosen (The Rosen Show) have been ardently working on behalf of the art/craft community to get big operations to "buy American." And yet when a potential situation arises where a big order does come through, and the buyer is smart enough to ask for some standardized testing to PROVE that our work is better than the imports, how do we as an art community respond? Go buy from China? What does quality matter? Sorry folks, you can't have it both ways. If you want to stand by the high quality of our work, and hence the higher cost, you have to accept testing to PROVE our quality.

And no, I would not want to test all 10,000 beads. But if I did have a 10,000 bead order I would be randomly testing at min. 1%, or 100 beads. Whether it was asked for or not. Look at it this way. 10,000 beads would be a big supplier, not just a neighborhood bead shop. Wouldn't you as an artist want to KNOW the work you were suppling was of the highest quality?

Okay, I'll get off my soap box now.

i basically agree with what you're saying but my problem with it is that i dont think its a logical test, it doesnt prove the quality at all, it just proves your beads wont crack from thermal shock - and the temp change from frozen to boiling water is actually not that much in terms of glass

And, she used to have something on there about testing them with radiation too

i think she was getting the polarization test mixed up a bit

essiemessy · #52 2012-04-12, 6:39pm

Just a thought, thanks to Deb's last comment:
After all those tests, did you run your beads through the polariscope to see whether stress points have developed?

CD Lampwork · #53 2012-04-12, 7:08pm

Mike's original post didn't say anything about subjecting the beads to radiation. And I agree, all this test proves is at best proper annealing. But again, the original question was "is the test too extreme." And personally I say no. As Deb just said, boiling to freezing isn't that much in terms of stress for this size piece of glass.

Certainly there are other more precise tests, including a polariscope. Nope, don't have one didn't use one. I've always been happy with the quality of my work. I only ran the test to confirm what I suspected. I strongly doubt boiling to freezing is going to induce stress into the glass. And if it did, a drop from 4 feet should reveal the weakness.

I'm not advocating this test as our industry/art/craft standard. I do think such a standard would be very helpful however.

PerfectDeb · #54 2012-04-12, 7:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CD Lampwork

Mike's original post didn't say anything about subjecting the beads to radiation. And I agree, all this test proves is at best proper annealing. But again, the original question was "is the test too extreme." And personally I say no. As Deb just said, boiling to freezing isn't that much in terms of stress for this size piece of glass.

Certainly there are other more precise tests, including a polariscope. Nope, don't have one didn't use one. I've always been happy with the quality of my work. I only ran the test to confirm what I suspected. I strongly doubt boiling to freezing is going to induce stress into the glass. And if it did, a drop from 4 feet should reveal the weakness.

I'm not advocating this test as our industry/art/craft standard. I do think such a standard would be very helpful however.

i'm assuming like a lot of others that he's referring to grace ma - she's the only one i've ever seen that claims to have had her beads tested this way and she's the one that also says that they're radiation tested

but yeah, its a pretty invalid testing process and I for one would not give her the satisfaction of buying into the bullshit

CD Lampwork · #55 2012-04-12, 7:55pm

Well I don't know anything about Grace Ma. So if that's what Mike's talking about I don't have an answer.

However I don't think the boiling to freezing idea is an invalid test. Sticking beads in the freezer then holding them under hot water has been common practice for as long as I've been making beads (12 years) when there's a doubt about either compatibility or annealing. 5 minutes in boiling water to 5 minutes in ice cold water is a test pretty much anyone can do. It takes the variables of temperature out of the equation as boiling is pretty standard at 212 degrees and ice water at 32 degrees. Freezers and hot water tanks can vary quite widely in temps. Sure, it's not the end all be all of glass stress testing. But it is a quick and dirty test pretty much anyone can do. And if the bead passes it sounds like most people on this thread would agree it's plenty durable.

Leigh-in-AK · #56 2012-04-12, 8:23pm

Well, I still think it is extreme for ornaments, which is what I believe a majority of us lampworkers are creating, well that and miniature pieces of art.

I wonder, those 3,000 year old beads that have been found, was any testing done on them to ensure durability?

LynieG · #57 2012-04-12, 8:33pm

Boy Mike did you stir up a hornets nest!!! LOL Yes people - I mentioned the radiation test because I was assuming that he was questioning Grace's claim to testing on her etsy and in it she says she does radiation tests along with the boiling / freezing thing! Guess that just goes to show you that the word assume really holds true! LOL! Sooo folks go ahead and fire away! Glass breaks, accidents happen! Even with properly annealled beads! Just because we don't feel the need to "test" them doesn't mean that they are not high quality!

ginko · #58 2012-04-12, 8:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikefrantz

So I assume what everyone is saying is that is an insane test for glass beads?

What would you do if somebody wanted you to make 10,000 beads that had to pass that test.

Mike

Laugh. Loud and long.
But then, throw a 10,000 bead order my way, and I probably would consider it. The testing is no big deal.

Baywinger · #59 2012-04-12, 9:21pm

look unless you are subjecting your beads to a nuclear blast radiation won't harm your glass
and even then it will be the blast wave and heat not the radiation that will crack your beads
I repaired and calibrated Dental X-Ray machines for 11 years and served on nuclear submarines and handled nuclear weapons before that so I do know a bit about radiation.
Now if you X-Rayed your beads looking for cracks that might be valid
Mikes testing parameters do sound exactly like Grace Ma's.
As far a quality tests go and the need for them I don't see why not but most manufacturers only destructive test a small percentage of a product not the entire lot.

Kalera · #60 2012-04-12, 10:04pm

Boiling to ice does stress the glass, even perfectly annealed glass. This is exactly why Visions cookware came with a warning not to take it off the stove and put it in cold water.

The test is meaningless *because* it introduces stress to the glass. That's why I think it's extreme. It doesn't measure anything.