Now I'm discouraged

[GrinAndBeadIt]

I have been reading like crazy the past few days trying to inform myself of lampworking. Not only do I think it's important to practice at the torch but reading is just as important. I have a Hot Head torch and some MAPP gas tanks but have yet to hook it up. Why you might ask? Well, after reading all the do and don'ts I'm to scared to set it up and try. I'm not able to do it in my house so I was thinking of trying to torch outside in my backyard which I think is fine, fresh air should be fine for ventilation. I can have a small fan blowing on me for extra caution. Now, if I want to do this even more down the road and I want to get a larger tank there is so much confusion as to what you can or can't use and use a hose don't use a hose. I have read that it's a no no to store a bbq tank outside but that doesn't make sense as I we have a bbq propane tank hooked up to our grill and it's outside and has been for 9 years, it's how we grill. No problems there. I have 1 full tank of MAPP and 3 half filled ones in my garage but that is a no no too. I can't store them outside and I can't store them inside. What do I do? There are do many don'ts than do's and I don't know what to do anymore. Can someone clairify the do's and don'ts so that I don't have all this equipment I just invested a pretty in just laying around collecting dust?

[Karen Hardy]

Rules of thumb (the very short version - this info can be supplimented by
sitting down with a notepad, a gin and tonic, and a few hours to spare, and
browsing through the safety forums here. Better men (and women) have
contracted carpal tunnel syndrome typing their little hearts away in an
attempt to educate us unwashed masses):

1) You must have adequate ventilation. This means either torch outdoors,
or have an overhead fan setup in the house. Do some research before installing
the fan (there's OOOdles of it on this forum).

2) If you are working with things that are small and/or airborne, you must
use protection. This means, Masks for frit, enamels, and other small particles - and
adequate ventilation when you are fuming things with silver, gold and copper.
If it doesn't belong in your lungs - take precautions.

3) Eyewear is a must. Adequate eyewear is a double-must. Do not torch in sunglasses.
Make sure you spend enough to get the proper eyewear. A pair
of Diddy's (diddimums (sp?) are ok if you are just starting out, but be
prepared to spend a couple of hundred dollars to upgrade if you will be continuing
this hobby as a serious pastime.

4) No propane in the house. Period. No exceptions. Doesn't matter if the
laws in your state say it's ok to do. If there's a leak, you go boom. End of
story. It's ok to store OUTSIDE, but not INSIDE.

5) Take a class. Don't be a macho wienie. We all have the same respect for
someone who took a class vs someone who is a self learner. If you make a
nice bead - it's all equal to us. By taking a class, you will avoid costly mistakes
and learn a lot more than just by reading.

...any other questions.......

[crystalflipz]

If you are outside, I don't think ventilation would be a problem. When I first started torching, I worked on a screened porch with fans in 2 of the windows and all the windows wide open. As for propane, propane in the house is a huge NO. I have a propane hose that goes from my tank which is outside to my torch inside. The important thing is to drain the propane out of the hose each time you finish torching. The best solution is to hard pipe to propane or to home NG, and that's my goal for the near future, but for now this is all I can afford. I do have a squirrel cage exhaust fan over my bench with a hood that DH built me because good ventilation is an absolute must to torch inside - along with a good source of return air.
Set your Hot Head and MAPP up outside and have at it!

[crystalflipz]

Thanks Karen, I totally forgot about eye protection (DUH!!) If you don't want to use glasses, there is also a bench top shield that works great, but one way or another, protect your eyes.

[Karen Hardy]

Originally Posted by crystalflipz

Thanks Karen, I totally forgot about eye protection (DUH!!) If you don't want to use glasses, there is also a bench top shield that works great, but one way or another, protect your eyes.

'zactly. I used to not want to spend the bucks - then I saw the co pay
cost for cataract surgery .

[GrinAndBeadIt]

I have taken a class and have spent torch time at the place I took class at. I have didymium glasses I spent a fortune on. I am not even considering bringing a propane tank inside but I saw on a post where someone said a propane tank outside was a no no? I don't get that b/c as far as I know they are suppose to be outside.

I have NO space whatsoever in my house to work on a torch so that is why I am saying I will do this outside only. I am not trying to go big time here but I would like to practice and get better at my new craft. Where do I store my small tanks of MAPP gas?

[Henrywashere]

Your gas tank needs to be outside. Dont know I have ever read about not storing it outside but hey that is the only other option to the NEVER HAVE GAS TANKS INSIDE. Maybe not stored in direct sunlight but outside is where they belong. I presume you are using a Hothead if you are using the 1lb mapp bottles. I've never used them so cant comment but I would presume as long as you bleed it after you have finished torching you can just leave it attached to your Hothead wherever it may be outside your house.

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by GrinAndBeadIt

.......... I have read that it's a no no to store a bbq tank outside but that doesn't make sense as I we have a bbq propane tank hooked up to our grill and it's outside and has been for 9 years, it's how we grill. No problems there........

Are you sure you didn't miss read something along the way.... I don't think I have ever seen anyone state you have to or should store a tank inside....

All I have ever seem is people who flaunt common safety precautions and local codes and say it's ok because they have not blown themselves up....YET.......

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7

Now... Stop procrastinating and go for it....

Dale

[GrinAndBeadIt]

This post says using a tank outside the house and bringing a hose inside to the torch is a bad idea? Not that I am trying or thinking of doing this but my brain wants to understand why not? Post 6 http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=90891


So, for now I can use my HH with my MAPP tanks outside and for the most part I should be safe right? And if I decide I need a bigger tank, then it is a good idea to upgrade to a different torch so I can use bulk propane, is that correct??

[Intarsia]

We must be very wierd people over here in Australia, we that is to say most of my beady buddies all work inside on a propane tank, most with Hot Heads. We learn inside with Mapp gas & Hot Heads so provided you take all the proper precautions WHICH WE DO!
There should be absolutley no reason why you cannot set yourself up in either garage, shed or porch. I have a small workshop in our backyard where I store my gas tank & attached to it is my Hot Head which I never remove unless it is to get tank refilled.
I used to set my mapp gas bottle & HH up on the bench in the kitchen with the exhaust fan from the oven running while I worked & I'm still going strong NOT DEAD YET!!

Cheers!

[wendbill]

Originally Posted by Intarsia

We must be very wierd people over here in Australia, we that is to say most of my beady buddies all work inside on a propane tank, most with Hot Heads. We learn inside with Mapp gas & Hot Heads so provided you take all the proper precautions WHICH WE DO!
There should be absolutley no reason why you cannot set yourself up in either garage, shed or porch. I have a small workshop in our backyard where I store my gas tank & attached to it is my Hot Head which I never remove unless it is to get tank refilled.
I used to set my mapp gas bottle & HH up on the bench in the kitchen with the exhaust fan from the oven running while I worked & I'm still going strong NOT DEAD YET!!

Cheers!

Huh? I'm from Australia, and I have always kept my propane outside...

The danger with propane is that it is a heavy gas and it pools if there is a leak. In an enclosed space this is dangerous, and if it ignites-it can blow up half the neighbourhood in the process. That is why the propane bottle should be left outside. If there is a leak and the bottle is outside, the gas will harmlessly disperse, and won't be concentrated enough to ignite. (examples of ignition sources, pilot lights for gas heaters, gas elements, cigarettes, candles etc etc - just to be blindingly obvious).

You can work on a torch indoors. But you need to have sufficient ventilation to stop the build up of combustion by-products - Carbon Monoxide and the likes.

Before I got a minor and invaded my husband's space in the shed, I used to set up at the kitchen table. I used to have the air conditioning fan on overhead, and the door open to ensure sufficient movement of air.

[beadworkstudio]

Originally Posted by GrinAndBeadIt

This post says using a tank outside the house and bringing a hose inside to the torch is a bad idea? Not that I am trying or thinking of doing this but my brain wants to understand why not? Post 6 http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=90891


So, for now I can use my HH with my MAPP tanks outside and for the most part I should be safe right? And if I decide I need a bigger tank, then it is a good idea to upgrade to a different torch so I can use bulk propane, is that correct??

You can't run a hose through the wall, but you can have a pipe installed. Hoses through the walls are a bad idea and probably against local ordinances. Or you can do what I do, and use quick-connects and open the garage door or window to run the line in only when torching.

[Lisi]

I worked for 18 months with my HH attached to a buffet table on one end, a high velocity floor fan in turned reverse in front of my torch. This took all the fumes of fuel combustion away from my face.

The area was a roofed breezeway between two buildings, the house and my dad's art studio. I'm set up inside the studio now. I had a big piece of plywood blocking the wind on my left to keep the flame from blowing around. Once in a while it got too windy and I couldn't torch, but most days were great! Especially at night when I could see the flame better. I had an overhead 4ft double tube fluorescent light. I loved my HH days!

[obscure_shadow]

i dont like working with a hot head outside as a gentle breeze seems like enough to make the flame sputter. maby if i were working a larger more powerfull torch this would make a difference. but make sure that there is something to block direct wind if you are working outside. you shouldnt need a fan or anything like that for extra ventilation outside either, just pay attention that the wind isnt blowing gasses back into your face

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by beadworkstudio

You can't run a hose through the wall, but you can have a pipe installed. Hoses through the walls are a bad idea and probably against local ordinances. Or you can do what I do, and use quick-connects and open the garage door or window to run the line in only when torching.

You can only pipe in fuel under a certain regulated pressure. HotHeads require full tank pressure to operate correctly, and that high pressure is too high for piping in.

I did what you described with using QDs and running the line in only when torching when I had an oxygen/fuel torch set-up.






I have seen what can happen when a HotHead malfunctions while being connected to a one pound MAPP cannister. I shudder to think what could have happened if it were hooked up to a bulk tank (BBQ grill size). Mike Aurelius is the one who witnessed it and posted the pictures. Perhaps that is part of why he is ademantly against using HotHeads on bulk fuel.

[ewdb]

if you're working with the 1lb tanks you can keep a few of them inside. check with your local authorities to see what you're allowed by law. In my province it's three 1lb propane or mapp tanks max inside a residential building.

i keep my empties in a double bagged garbage bag inside a bin and take them to the hazardous waste dump as they accumulate. If you can keep yr empties ouside your house that would best. if you ever decide to move to a bulk tank then you'll have to keep the propane outside and pipe it in.

about torching outside: you may find it difficult first, to see your flame in direct sunlight and 2nd, work in a steady flame as every gust of wind will affect your flame direction. I'd suggest finding a shady, gust-free location.

if you'd like to see a less than perfect (but workable!) indoor setup you can check out my studio here: http://shebamakeda.com/my-studio/ it's located on the second floor in a bedroom - doesn't take up that much space and i've got LOTS of stuff.

oh and i think all of us go thru that intial fear of lighting the torch for the very first time. i was terrified. took me two full weeks and LOTS of online encouragement before i could bring myself to light my HH for the first time....lol. Once you get going tho, you'll wonder why you ever waited so long. Happy Torching!

[LaurieBSmith]

My propane is right outside....we notched a piece of moulding, put the hose out the window and under the notch, closed the window. The tank is behind a bush, no one sees it from the street.

I check it regularly, have never smelled it, no leaks....and even the cops who thought I was suicidal were impressed once they saw my set-up.

Please don't be discouraged.....get a list and tick things off one at a time....suddenly, you'll be done. Honest...you will.

This is an expensive hobby...but worth it...and it can turn into a living....

[Inky]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

You can only pipe in fuel under a certain regulated pressure. HotHeads require full tank pressure to operate correctly, and that high pressure is too high for piping in.

I did what you described with using QDs and running the line in only when torching when I had an oxygen/fuel torch set-up.






I have seen what can happen when a HotHead malfunctions while being connected to a one pound MAPP cannister. I shudder to think what could have happened if it were hooked up to a bulk tank (BBQ grill size). Mike Aurelius is the one who witnessed it and posted the pictures. Perhaps that is part of why he is ademantly against using HotHeads on bulk fuel.

Is there any way to pipe bulk fuel(Chemtane) in to use on a Hot Head? We just moved the glass stuff upstairs so we could go through the wall (hard black pipe, regulator) , now I find this. My torch won't work with a required regulator?

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Inky

Is there any way to pipe bulk fuel(Chemtane) in to use on a Hot Head? We just moved the glass stuff upstairs so we could go through the wall (hard black pipe, regulator) , now I find this. My torch won't work with a required regulator?

The Hot Head relies on the high pressure coming straight from a cannister (the one pound cannisters) for the velocity of the fuel pulls the room air through the vent holes on the torch and into the flame.

If you are on a bulk tank and regulate that pressure down enough to meet code for piping it indoors, it won't have the same pull.

Have you considered upgrading torches to an oxygen-fuel torch that can be run on low pressures?

[SilverCreek Studio]

Originally Posted by wendbill

Huh? I'm from Australia, and I have always kept my propane outside...

The danger with propane is that it is a heavy gas and it pools if there is a leak. In an enclosed space this is dangerous, and if it ignites-it can blow up half the neighbourhood in the process. That is why the propane bottle should be left outside. If there is a leak and the bottle is outside, the gas will harmlessly disperse, and won't be concentrated enough to ignite. (examples of ignition sources, pilot lights for gas heaters, gas elements, cigarettes, candles etc etc - just to be blindingly obvious).

You can work on a torch indoors. But you need to have sufficient ventilation to stop the build up of combustion by-products - Carbon Monoxide and the likes.

Before I got a minor and invaded my husband's space in the shed, I used to set up at the kitchen table. I used to have the air conditioning fan on overhead, and the door open to ensure sufficient movement of air.

Slightly exaggerated with the half the neighborhood thing. We had a propane explosion in a house here. YES their house with the propane was pretty much leveled, but the guy inside survived and his neighbors only had minor damage to their homes. Mostly from debris flying through windows.

The only time I have seen propane level an entire block was when the storage depot here exploded last year and they store thousands of pounds of the stuff.

Now if you wanna talk NG explosions, which is what is pumped into your home to fire up your furnace. I can show you pics of 2-4 blocks of total wipeout from those explosions. Not one building left standing....

[patezd]

FYI, if you're using a HH, you might want to consider hearing protection as well..........my ears used to RING after using my HH. I switched to a minor burner and it was much quieter, then to a cricket and it is quieter still!

[Inky]

I really didn't want to go to a bigger torch (after seeing some of the work here, I certainly have not outgrown it) , but am now considering it. I have been hauling in my bulk tank for torching, and taking it back out as soon as I'm done, a bad idea I know. May have to just save the torching to warmer weather and the back porch. Am kind of wishing I had bought a Cricket on intro pricing now.

[patezd]

My experience with a HH and all those little MAPP gas canisters prompted me to move on to a minor. I started getting really frustrated when I couldn't get all the gas used out of the tanks but they would freeze up and take waaaaaay to long to melt stuff, then finally petered out. I started thinking about how much I was spending on gas.........approximately $35.00 a week to run my HH. Compared to the cost of the minor and set up which is initially expensive, I realized that, over time, it would be more cost effective to switch to the surface mix torch. Our big propane tank lasts a good 8 months and I spend around $30.00 every two weeks on oxygen using the big 90 lb. tanks. I go through about 500 lbs of oxy pressure in 3-4 hours of torching with my cricket but I'm also doing boro as well as soft glass and boro burns up the oxy! Anyway, the switch was worth it for me because I could work much more efficiently and have been able to expand my skills considerably. It also doesn't hurt my feelings that I don't have to listen to the ROAR of the HH now either! As for the cricket, even if you can't get the lower price, it's a nice little torch! I can do boro quite nicely with it!

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by SilverCreek Studio

Slightly exaggerated with the half the neighborhood thing. We had a propane explosion in a house here. YES their house with the propane was pretty much leveled, but the guy inside survived and his neighbors only had minor damage to their homes. Mostly from debris flying through windows.

The only time I have seen propane level an entire block was when the storage depot here exploded last year and they store thousands of pounds of the stuff.

Now if you wanna talk NG explosions, which is what is pumped into your home to fire up your furnace. I can show you pics of 2-4 blocks of total wipeout from those explosions. Not one building left standing....

We had one here years back, on 11th Ave. two blocks from my house. It was before I moved here, but all the windows on the back end of this house cracked and I heard that windows cracked as far away as 8th Ave. The explosion was in the basement, but it leveled the house ("matchsticks" is what the neighbors said) and took out the exterior walls of the adjacent homes.

[SilverCreek Studio]

Perhaps I was not that clear. The explosion was from a person using a 10lb canister of propane, not piped in. He was using a torch for metal work. He had filled the tank the week prior so they figured there was maybe 5 lbs left. I spoke with a Fire Captain who just happens to be my Uncle and 5-10lbs of propane cannot level half a neighborhood.........he told me the secondary fuel source being the NG added to the force of the flying debris and the leveling of the house in which the explosion took place.

My neighbor blew himself up and his BBQ in the backyard while trying to fire it up using a newly filled 25 lb tank of propane and my house which is shoulder to shoulder with his, never even trembled but he lost his arm. Blew it clean off his body at the elbow.

[SilverCreek Studio]

Oh either way, propane IN the house...NOT a good thing. Propane used MUST be checked at all times for leaks and plugs in the lines and valves.

Safety first.

Added, spiders and many other bugs love love propane valves and hoses and will build little homes inside. This causes the gas to get backed up and build. If your torch or BBQ does not light within a few seconds, TURN OFF the tank, disconnect the hose and check for bugs and their little abodes....

[ByCher]

So is everyone saying that it's NOT ok to run that bulk tank hose through a hole in the wall to use a HH?

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by ByCher

So is everyone saying that it's NOT ok to run that bulk tank hose through a hole in the wall to use a HH?

Here's the deal...

Code says that you cannot pipe a gas into your house (and that includes an attached garage) unless it is regulated down below a certain pressure. I think it's about 20 psi, but I'm not sure right off the top of my head. This is for a permanent installation - where you have a pipe and a shut-off valve. Running a rubber line through a hole in the wall is not permitted for a permanent installation. This is because the risk to the line is too great - it can be chewed through by pests or can be torn. For temporary use, a line can be passed through a window or something, but it has to be removed immediately after use - and this is still for the low pressure fuel, not fuel delivered at tank pressure.

You cannot regulate the pressure down to that low of a pressure (20 psi or thereabouts) and still effectively use a Hot Head. The Hot Head needs higher tank pressure (of the one pound cannisters - it was not made for the bigger bulk tanks).

The reason that you do not want to run a tank pressure line into your house is because if there is a leak in your line or a failure in the valve of your Hot Head (and that dinky little valve is the only thing keeping all the propane from your tank in your tank when you are on one side of the wall and your tank is on the other), that high pressure will cause the propane to flood into your house very quickly. And, if you are on the other side of the wall from your propane tank when a problem occurs, you will not be able to reach the shut off valve quickly. So even if it were not written in the codes, it is still a very bad idea to run high pressure fuel into your house.

Besides the potential for having a large amount of fuel leak into your home very quickly, when you have a small hole and you force a gas through it at a high pressure, it creates static electricity which can by itself ignite the flammable gas. So, again, bad idea to have this in your house.

[ByCher]

Hi Kim, this makes so much sense to me. Thank you for the information! But how do people safely use a bulk tank with a HH? Especially bulk MAPP (which I'm hoping to switch to soon)?

Cher

[cadia]

Always keep a little fear in the form of caution and respect for the dangerous side of this very fun craft, even when you get comfortable with your set up.