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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #61  
Old 2008-05-28, 2:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley View Post
I'm all for gathering data and posting results... I want everybody to get the right concentrator for them... it doesn't have to be from me. I'm a lampworker first and only sell the UO units, because I use them myself and believe in them whole heartedly.
I think that this thread has ventured off beyond simple data collection. I wil start a new thread with data only and this thread can be left for discussion.
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  #62  
Old 2008-05-28, 5:29pm
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way to go girl! like the dog on a mail man. made my day. hope the next post goes better. thanks again for the intent.
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  #63  
Old 2008-05-29, 12:06pm
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I got a question.

If UO machines are so thoroughly deficient, why do so many people keep buying them and why do so many that have bought them comment so favourably and so frequently about how pleased they are with them?
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  #64  
Old 2008-05-29, 12:26pm
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I have question to. someone referred to car manufactures and their improving a product line. if you own a car and its deemed in part to be defective there is a recall of the unit or the parts involved. the the M20 was replaced by the M15 correct because of issues on the M20. was there a recall on all M20 units and how many of these machines where sold? one person here received three units and all three where replaced with three more. the best of the three being tested here. If I was reading this thread as a UO M20 person, I would be very disappointed in owning this product line and be requesting my M20 be replaced with the M15. Is that whats happening?

I think in part Dennis some people buy some machine because of posted misinformed information by vendors like your self, and because the manufacture is in such a hurry to get products out on the market that they don't research torch needs correctly. it is very important that people post not assumed values, but to test the machines and torches if they wish to make certain claims. then there are those that the M series does meet their needs and there pocket books. As far as O2 units are involved UO has no doubt the worst write up on the web and a simple google search will provide that. so many people are in favor of them and more than a good average are not. that could be because of many reason, how the machine preforms to customer service on both sides of the spectrum
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Last edited by murf; 2008-05-29 at 12:44pm.
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  #65  
Old 2008-05-29, 12:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murf View Post
I have question to. someone referred to car manufactures and their improving a product line. if you own a car and its deemed in part to be defective there is a recall of the unit or the parts involved. the the M20 was replaced by the M15 correct because of issues on the M20. was there a recall on all M20 units and how many of these machines where sold? one person here received three units and all three where replaced with three more. the best of the three being tested here. If I was reading this thread as a UO M20 person, I would be very disappointed in owning this product line and be requesting my M20 be replaced with the M15. Is that whats happening?

I think in part Dennis some people buy some machine because of posted misinformed information by vendors like your self, and because the manufacture is in such a hurry to get products out on the market that they don't research torch needs correctly. it is very important that people post not assumed values, but to test the machines and torches if they wish to make certain claims.
If we are to accept technical information as valid, it must come from an unbiased source that has no dog in the fight. Until some such source presents itself, it's appropriate to treat all claims with healthy skepticism.
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  #66  
Old 2008-05-29, 1:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Brady View Post
If we are to accept technical information as valid, it must come from an unbiased source that has no dog in the fight. Until some such source presents itself, it's appropriate to treat all claims with healthy skepticism.
What is healthy is to approach any information with a little bit of skepticism. Had we done that, we might not be in Iraq today, but that's another topic.

We do take technical informaton from biased sources all the time. Product specification sheets are prepared by the manufacturer. I trust that the manufacturer is printing the result of accurate testing. When results do not live up to their claims, then it usually is a third party that calls it out.

In this case, the only one forthcoming with test data is Kimberly. She has been very careful to line out her process of testing and show the results. She has also indicated a willingness to test newer models of equipment and has asked others to post their test results. I don't see any of the others going out and purchasing testing equipment. I don't see any of the others providing clear results of their testing. I do see a lot of accusations and opinions instead of clear discussion.

When a highly-respected torch manufacturer is looking for a reliable source for oxygen supply for their torches, one could expect they would check out the available products on the market. Who better to know which equipment runs their torches the best? This started simply as that. The initial testing was done before anyone associated with GTT was in the concentrator sales market. When the results were not as expected, then we began seeing the attacks at Kimberly instead of a healthy approach to find out what works and doesn't work.

--to some degree, we all have a dog in this fight if we need oxygen.
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  #67  
Old 2008-05-29, 1:07pm
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Are you saying we can not rely on manufactures claims, nor their vendors? if so, pretty difficult to proceed with any confidence.
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  #68  
Old 2008-05-29, 1:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murf View Post
I have question to. someone referred to car manufactures and their improving a product line. if you own a car and its deemed in part to be defective there is a recall of the unit or the parts involved. the the M20 was replaced by the M15 correct because of issues on the M20. was there a recall on all M20 units and how many of these machines where sold? one person here received three units and all three where replaced with three more. the best of the three being tested here. If I was reading this thread as a UO M20 person, I would be very disappointed in owning this product line and be requesting my M20 be replaced with the M15. Is that whats happening?

I think in part Dennis some people buy some machine because of posted misinformed information by vendors like your self, and because the manufacture is in such a hurry to get products out on the market that they don't research torch needs correctly. it is very important that people post not assumed values, but to test the machines and torches if they wish to make certain claims. then there are those that the M series does meet their needs and there pocket books. As far as O2 units are involved UO has no doubt the worst write up on the web and a simple google search will provide that. so many people are in favor of them and more than a good average are not. that could be because of many reason, how the machine preforms to customer service on both sides of the spectrum
I have a better question.

Is the objective here to impart objective and accurate information, or is the objective, as it assuredly appears, to trash Unlimited Oxygen?
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  #69  
Old 2008-05-29, 2:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Brady View Post
I have a better question.

Is the objective here to impart objective and accurate information, or is the objective, as it assuredly appears, to trash Unlimited Oxygen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Larry, you sell these exact same Millenium 5 lpm units with a 5 year warranty. Not modified, but if you keep up this out right bad mouthing, you are going to look bad. Maybe you're just a grumpy old man that should hold back off on voicing his opinion so harshly. The units I have are performing flawlessly. I really like them. Time will tell how long they hold up, but I have been assured by the manufacturer that they stand behind these units. So far, they have with others, so I have zero anxiety over it. I know you have some great 5 year warranty, but you aren't doing a damn thing to the units to improve them to the level some of us need. Stop being a crotchety old geezer and see what these do over time. Your bad attitude is really going to lose you some business. I definitely won't ever suggest you guys if somebody needs a 5 LPM machine and I get asked a LOT. There's too many other companies offering the exact same units. Watch your words and how you represent your business... it's not nice and will cost you money. If you have doubts, fine... express them as doubts. Debate it on hard facts if you have them... you have so much experience in this feild, I think you could make your point without calling names.

Good Evening Mr. Smiley,

I am extremely sorry if you have taken offense at my trying to be honest and warn people in the beadmaking community about getting stuck with these machines. If you have ever taken the time to call me or talk to anyone who knows me or this business you would probably be suprised to know that we are highly respected as an oxygen supplier and are held in high regard.

I have little tolerance for people who try to bait me into trivial arguements regarding oxygen systems as you obviously seem to like to do.

We feel that we set the Highest Standard for our equipment and services which other companies do not even come close to offering. Wonder why that is ? Think about it !!

We feel that our 5 year warranty should be a minimum standard for our customers, no matter if it is for medical practices, fish farming, ozone / health purposes, beadmaking, etc.

It shows that OxygenPlus offers commitment, character, integrity, credibility and support ALL of our customers no matter what application our equipment is chosen to be used for.

We take care of our customers for five years so they can run and focus on their business &/or hobbie and not worry about the oxygen concentrator.


OxygenPlus Medical Systems is a Business who cares what customers end up with and not a "crotchety old Geezer" with an attitude ( I am 50 years young ).

OxygenPlus Medical Systems is a strong 26 year old family oriented company ( Yes, there are still some around ) that delivers " Good Ole Fashion " customer service.

I have always told my son Justin to always watch out for the guy that worries about YOUR money !! You do not really need to worry about my attitude, business, money, etc.

You should be worrying about getting these boys to provide some credibility to there machines CLAIMS Since they refuse to offer any data specification on there concentrator, by offering at least a 1 or 2 year warranty on their equipment to do justice to the beadmakers who have to scrimp and save to buy a concentrator !

The only way they can stand behind there equipment and alleged Claims is to take responsibility in one of two ways. Provide a Data Specification sheet which has been requested to support there claims, or stand behind there machines modification / tampering with a real warranty which will make the purchaser know they are dealing with a reputable person. Otherwise you would be better off taking your chances on e-bay.

I have no hidden agenda as I am sure you worry about also. I assume that you know that we deal with 5 LPM oxygen systems that beadmakers use for soft glass usually not exceed a minor burner. You and your freinds represent no problem for me as you are dealing with an entirely different piece of equipment.
I am not receiving any kickbacks to sell or market their M-10, M-20, Cyclone
or any other name that it gets called.


COLD HARD FACTS YOU REQUESTED

We were hired by a consulting firm years ago to see if it were possible to beef up concentrators to get more out of them, finally after months of research the conclusion was that it could not be done effectively for a very long period of time as the system, sieve materiel would not withstand the wide variations of flows and being out of tolerance. Purity issuses were ALWAYS a major problem at the maximun flowrates because the machines product holding tank would empty out within minutes resulting in flame fluctuation because of purity fluctuation.
It does not take an "Einstein" to figure out that if you are emtying out the concentrator oxygen holding tank faster than you are filling it that you are going to run out. Depending on variables like glass, torch type, etc. the time the unit will empty the oxygen product holding tank will vary but rest assured it will empty itself at 9 or 10 LPM. When you are told to reduce the flowmeter out put down to 8 lpm or below. That should be a red flag.
If a unit is sold as a 10 lpm unit then by Golly, don't you think it should perform at 10 LPM. Anyone who bys these units should run them @ 10 lpm and observe there flame. The flame should be the same no matter what setting that it is at from 1 LPM all the way to 10 LPM
The systems are not designed to operate at these pressures safely and will
have issues.


You should be also asking yourself that if these guys are tampering with a piece of manufactures Medical equipment ( Respironics ) are they or their products FDA approved ?? probably not !!
If they are making there own piece of equipment are they following safe manufacturers practices !! Probably not !!

I have asked them to display their concentrator units specifications 2 or 3 weeks ago, as well as some other beadmakers and to date have been totally
blown off - and yet you keep challenging my credentials.

We have never proclaimed to be experts in beadmaking or lampworking.

We try to help people do it better.

We are not trying to reinvent the wheel at others expense by Selling bogus equipment to be tested by the consumer at there home or business.

But make no mistake, we are industry experts on all models of oxygen concentrator systems

This Grumpy crotchety old geezer is now going to stay out of this thread. I feel I have made my point. People will come to there own conclusions soon enough.

Watch for our upcoming Easter April Specials.

Artisains from then beadmaking community that wish to make inquiries can reach us at 1.540.586.9051 or visit our website @ www.oxygenplusmedical.com

I would like to personally thank everyone for the outstanding support you have shown us over the years. It truly has been a great experience.

Respectfully,
Larry LaClair - President / CEO
OxygenPlus Medical Systems Inc.
1.540.586.9051
www.oxygenplusmedical.com
www.oxygenplusmedical.com/referral.html
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  #70  
Old 2008-05-29, 3:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Brady View Post
I have a better question.

Is the objective here to impart objective and accurate information, or is the objective, as it assuredly appears, to trash Unlimited Oxygen?

its fair to say that the forum is a glass community. if VENDORS post misinformation (I level a finger STRAIGHT at you), should we take trust in anything they can offer or say? want to post information, check your facts. manufacturers of any product had best do the same. Not trashing UO. Be nice if they could get there data straightened out. we simple wouldn't be discussing trashing if there wasn't previous problems and excuses.

seems Kimberly posted some data that vendors didnt like. the manufactures then made false claims on GTT's purchase. that in its self seemed more like trashing and talk about accurate information, geeees. maybe I skipped a beat here, but I haven't seen a apology for that over sight. so far the only good or bad facts have come from her and you can take those finding as you want.
out side of that. what has anyone else offered?
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  #71  
Old 2008-05-29, 4:19pm
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emphasis mine


No, Jack, allow me to set forth a couple of facts and keep the record straight. You have now leveled some accusations against GTT that are untrue and are calling into question my honesty.

In a thread on another forum, I posted about the offer for GTT to be a distributor and how they wanted to test units first and then were invoiced for them. You replied with:

...The info that was posted on this site is based on our first try at a modified unit nearly 2 years ago. We have spent the last two years perfecting and testing our equipment. GTT was never offered our machine for any other purpose than testing. Obviously objectivity is not their strong suit, since they have their own line of concentrators.

First of all, GTT does not sell concentrators, I do. Second, GTT was indeed offered a distributorship. I have the proof right here. I did not post it over there before, but now that you are calling me a liar (again) about GTT buying those machines, well, I figured I had better just put it all out there. We're not going to just sit back and be called liars.

Here is the Distributor Plan (we obscured the prices) and a letter to your distributors (and I guess prospective ones, since you sent one to GTT):




Here is the invoice for the three machines that GTT purchased


You are claiming that GTT did not buy the units you sent them. You are also putting it all off on Paul, saying that you were unaware of the goings-on. And, you are basically calling me a liar, again, Jack. Well, here is your signature on the back of the cancelled check:



GTT was invoiced for and paid for the machines before they were able to test them. They figured that they could sell them later. Well, after testing them and returning them and testing the replacement units, they were not about to pass them off on anyone else. They had buyers, but they also had a conscience and needed to be able to sleep well at night. So, there they sat, unsold. W&W figured that they were stuck with them since the original six month warranty had passed.

Now, if you are still willing to replace the machines with current ones, let's talk. How about you replace the two M-20s with two M-15s and the M-10 with a current model M-10, if the new M-10s perform better than the older ones with the condition that we will run these new units for a specified length of time (how about continuously for five weeks straight) and will be sampling them during that time and if the units fall below 90% purity and/or 15 psi pressure at their highest rated output (8LPM), you will take them back and refund the original purchase price of $1810.00 USD? I will post the test results and they will be actual measurements and not just exclamations of "It rocks!" or "It runs nicely."

Neither I nor GTT were in the concentrator business when you sent those machines. We had no bias. Even now, with me having my business selling concentrators, GTT and I are still searching for a machine that puts out higher flow and higher pressure than what we have now with high purity. It must perform as advertised for me or GTT to even consider selling or recommending it. If your machines are as good as you are claiming they are now (and that would mean that they would have to perform well in the long run, too, not just right out of the box), well, we would be happy to sell or recommend them. It's unfortunate that we have not yet had that experience.

BTW, the original units were sent out in late 2005. They were returned and the three replacement units (one of which I have here) were sent out some time in 2006. That is only two years ago. Two years is not a long time, especially when you are discussing equipment that should last much longer than that.

If you would like to apologize to me and GTT for calling us liars, we'll accept your apology.

And please accept my apology for not noting in my original post that the M-20s were discontinued. I thought that that was common knowledge, since they are not listed for sale on your website and it just did not occur to me that anyone would think that I was implying that they were current models.





Oh, and Brent... did Jack's post coming on here and lying about us count as "being dishonest"?
(and yes, it was a lie to say that GTT never paid for their units when they in fact had)

Oh, and purity problems, compressors wearing out, units dying after five months of use, and things like that are usually NOT caused by shipping mishaps... just so you know...
Well, Thats what I get for taking someone elses word on the agreement. I was wrong and I do apologize. I was mis-informed. Of corse I dont remember signing the check from years ago, but its pretty obvious I did. If you would like, I will send a truck to pick up the units. I would be happy to take you up on your offer for the switch. Kimberly, I did not and would not intentionly call you or GTT liars. That is not in my nature. I am truely sorry for posting false info on this matter. The M20 worked well for MOST who purchased them, but not for all. Those who had issues were replaced. I dont have any claims posted that could be mis-leading. All the information I have aquired, came from Lampworkers themselves. EVERY SINGLE person who calls me to match up a generator with a torch, is told by me to ask around for better advise on what to use. At one time, we included Rich at Glasscraft to help with evaluation. He actually had a list that matched the torches with our machines. I never had a copy to use. Again, I am sorry to Kimberly, GTT and everyone who was mis-led by my statement. My intent was not mean or pointed at all. The M20 was not discontinued just improved. We felt that it could use another compressor, so we put it in a steel box. It was known as the M20 Tornado for a while then we just dropped the M20 part of the name. It is the Tornado, and is still in our line up. There was no need for a recall because they are still working well. I would love for a REAL list of torch specs to be posted somewhere. I dont hide the specs of my machines. They are posted all over my site. I will even lend any of my units to someone for REAL testing for REAL info purposes. I have no fight for anyone and I dont want one. I just posted some eronious info and I am very sorry for it. jack
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Old 2008-05-29, 8:53pm
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Okay, again, I'm begging that we keep the "religious" nature of this discussion to a minimum. It does no good. Only numbers will help folks make a decision about what to use:

1.) torch manufacturers need to provide their "minimum system requirements" which would be something like psi, lpm and other flow rate ranges. I called Nortel some time ago to try to get this info, and they never called me back. I did not follow through, but I feel this is info that should come with every torch purchased. I shouldn't have to make long distance phone calls to Canada. It should be in with the torch, along with other things about using it and taking care of it.

2.) oxycon manufacturers need to provide their purity levels at the top and bottom ranges of the capacities of their machines, along with psi and lpm and all that.

3.) oxycon manufacturers need to provide some idea of how long their machines will last at a given amount of usage, i.e. 6 hours per day, 5 days per week, for 5 years. Or whatever it is.

Right now, I feel like a guinea pig in a science experiment. I spend a lot of money on these machines, and I want a better idea of what to buy and what to expect. I'm a full-time beadmaker, and when my oxycon is down, I'm screwed until I can get it back up and working or replace it. I can't afford this nonsense.

So far, I've had 4 machines -- the one that worked the best? The used Alliance that I bought for $150 directly from a medical supply place -- 5 years at the usage described above. UO's M10 that I purchased for $750? 2 1/2 years at the usage described above. UO's M15? (swapped out when the M10 died) 5 months. I now have one of Kimberly's Invacare's ($375), and only time will tell; however it has a 60-month warranty.

I don't care who provides me the measurements at this point. I felt like Kimberly was/is on the right track. Instead of simply claiming a certain level of operation, she's taken measurements. In addition, she's offered her equipment to others for testing, I'm assuming so that she can compile the data and publicize it for all our benefits. It's more than anyone else has done thus far.

Then, we as lampworkers, don't have to go around trying to find somebody with our same torch and ask what oxycon they use. It's unscientific, and insane! This stuff is measurable, and only requires high school math to figure out once you get the base numbers from the torch and oxycon manufacturers.

So how about going about this more constructively? I mean, for the good of the community and all...

Geez!

Patti

Last edited by ditfd; 2008-05-29 at 8:55pm. Reason: clarification
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  #73  
Old 2008-05-30, 6:01am
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Patti, UO tests their machines before they send them out. They run every single one of them for a length of time (Jack could tell you how long. I've heard him talk about letting them run at least over night) and they take readings to make sure it does what they say it does. Jack has all the flow meters and purity gizmos. He's not sending out machines hoping they do what they promise. He knows... Kimberly is not the manufacturer, so hooking up meters to a machine was brand new for her. Jack can give us those results on any machine he sends out.

and that's why I have a really hard time understanding the results Kimberly shared. Jack would never send out a machine performing like that... and any time there have been problems, Jack has stepped up to make it right. Just like he has here. Nobody wants to get to the bottom of this as bad as Jack does. He takes pride in his work and he cares about the end user being happy above all else.

Murf... they don't recall cars when they make an improvement the next year... there are far too many M-20s working really really well and there's no reason to recall them. None. If they tried to take mine, they'd have a fight on their hands.
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  #74  
Old 2008-05-30, 6:10am
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Kimberly, Do you have the information I asked for? What does the GTT line up require to run at 100%? This information should be readily available from your husband. Can you please post it?
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  #75  
Old 2008-05-30, 6:48am
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I'm not disputing the fact that UO takes measurements and tests their machines before they leave the shop, but as I mentioned before Mr.S, Kimberly's numbers coincide with my real life experience with my TWO UO oxycons. They work fine for a while, and then at some point, the purity starts to go, and finally, the machine stops working altogether. It seems to happen "prematurely". I'm spoiled -- that $150 Alliance worked for 5 years! That I can't complain about!

Jack has thus far made this right with me by continuing to swap out the machines as they die. He's even contacted me about my recent woes, based on my posting on another forum, rather than the e-mail I sent from his website more than 3 weeks ago. It's too late for me before the big Bead and Button show, but I'll happily deal with it after that.

But instead of all the bickering back and forth, I'd like to know why this happens. I don't have a gizmo to test with, although I might take Kimberly up on her offer of borrowing hers at some point. Because I have no way of knowing that when I get anybody's machine if it is working according to the specs they claim.

By figuring out why this happens, then we as a community and you guys as suppliers can improve the technology and improve our understanding of how best to use the machines and to take care of them for optimum performance over a reasonable period of time. Again bickering with fuzzy numbers or no numbers just doesn't make any sense.

Also, I'm not sure it's helpful to say Kimberly doesn't know how to take the measurements.

I think ALL the torch manufacturers need to post their numbers -- I'm on a Nortel torch, not a GTT torch. And there are lots of other torch manufacturers out there who need to provide torch owners and oxycon manufacturers with numbers.

I'd also like you and/or Jack to speculate about why my two different machines M10 and M15 don't seem to have the lifespan I would expect. I mean, perhaps it's not the right machine for me? But how will I know if we don't start putting on our thinking caps and figuring out the why's?

FWIW, I have a possible speculation about that, if any of the oxycon makers are interested. But I'd rather hear from Mr. S or Jack first.

Patti
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Old 2008-05-30, 8:47am
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I got a question.

If UO machines are so thoroughly deficient, why do so many people keep buying them and why do so many that have bought them comment so favourably and so frequently about how pleased they are with them?
When I was a newbie and got my first oxycon, it was the cat's meow but I had nothing to compare it to. It was only after a few months and the UO started to output at way less than it originally did that I started to be unhappy with the oxycon.

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I don't care who provides me the measurements at this point. I felt like Kimberly was/is on the right track. Instead of simply claiming a certain level of operation, she's taken measurements. In addition, she's offered her equipment to others for testing, I'm assuming so that she can compile the data and publicize it for all our benefits. It's more than anyone else has done thus far.
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I don't have a gizmo to test with, although I might take Kimberly up on her offer of borrowing hers at some point. Because I have no way of knowing that when I get anybody's machine if it is working according to the specs they claim.
Good points! Particularly the not knowing what is actually happening spec-wise.

Thanks again, Kimberly, for taking the time to test. I'm always interested in seeing how real-world use compares to laboratory testing.
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Old 2008-05-30, 8:54am
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Well, Thats what I get for taking someone elses word on the agreement. I was wrong and I do apologize. I was mis-informed. Of corse I dont remember signing the check from years ago, but its pretty obvious I did. If you would like, I will send a truck to pick up the units. I would be happy to take you up on your offer for the switch. Kimberly, I did not and would not intentionly call you or GTT liars. That is not in my nature. I am truely sorry for posting false info on this matter. The M20 worked well for MOST who purchased them, but not for all. Those who had issues were replaced. I dont have any claims posted that could be mis-leading. All the information I have aquired, came from Lampworkers themselves. EVERY SINGLE person who calls me to match up a generator with a torch, is told by me to ask around for better advise on what to use. At one time, we included Rich at Glasscraft to help with evaluation. He actually had a list that matched the torches with our machines. I never had a copy to use. Again, I am sorry to Kimberly, GTT and everyone who was mis-led by my statement. My intent was not mean or pointed at all. The M20 was not discontinued just improved. We felt that it could use another compressor, so we put it in a steel box. It was known as the M20 Tornado for a while then we just dropped the M20 part of the name. It is the Tornado, and is still in our line up. There was no need for a recall because they are still working well. I would love for a REAL list of torch specs to be posted somewhere. I dont hide the specs of my machines. They are posted all over my site. I will even lend any of my units to someone for REAL testing for REAL info purposes. I have no fight for anyone and I dont want one. I just posted some eronious info and I am very sorry for it. jack
Oh, O.K., Jack. Please don't take the following as mean (concerned, perhaps, but nothing mean intended) - my tone cannot be conveyed well over the internet.

You said that you took someone else's word on "the agreement" about the distributorship and that you don't remember GTT paying for the machines. Well, you should have known better than to think that I would have posted something that was untrue. Jerry Butler and Paul were constantly on the phone with you saying that they needed to check with you every step of the way. They were at our table, standing right next to Willy (GTT) talking to you about the unfolding events. GTT kept the correspondence they later received regarding the matter. But, again, I would not have said something with that much weight to it with so much confidence were it not the truth.

You say that, "I dont have any claims posted that could be mis-leading." Does that mean that your company's claims would have to be posted on a glass forum or website for them to be true? I would think that your company representatives' verbal claims about your machines' performance should mean something. And about posted claims, I notice that you once had a chart posted on your website for the machines currently in production that listed each machine's performance, including the claim that all but one of them produced 95% purity. Here is a thread thaht includes a screen shot of that chart: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=91888 Those claims have been pulled off of your website and now there is just a statement that all your machines perform with a purity of 90% +/-3% for altitude variance. Which posted claims do people with your machines go by?

You go on to say that lampworkers, like Rich at GlassCraft (a friend of mine, btw) are responsible for the claims that were made regarding torch/concentrator performance, and that you did not have a copy of the sheet he made up, so you really don't know what was recommended. What the heck? Did you call the torch manufacturers or check the internet? O.K., Nortel, I understand, because I have asked a few times (even spoke with Peter, himself) for their information and never received it. But, for all the others, the information is available by contacting the manufacturers. That's what I did. In addition to relying on the numbers from the manufacturer, I also purchased and borrowed torches to have tested with a flow meter and a pressure gauge to see what was what. I take great care when fitting a torch to a concentrator to an artist. I put a lot of solid effort into the information I have compiled and into "fitting" a system. Why didn't you?

You are now saying that the M-20 evolved into the Tornado, with the addition of a second compressor and packaged in a new case. But, what about the M-15? Did the M-20 not also evolve (more closely) into that? Even Brent says that the M-20 is the old version of the M-15. By saying that the M-20 just evolved into the Tornado, it almost sounds as if you are now trying to distance the M-15 from the M-20. If so many of them (M-20s) did as well as you are saying, then why would you do that?

All of this, as well as your previous assertion that you are busy cleaning up messes Paul left you, makes it sound like everything is everbody else's fault. You sure sound like a politician. But, the difference is that you are at least manning up and saying that you will follow through and right all the wrongs, not just the ones against us.

Because of that, we will accept your apololgy and go through with the plan I outlined to have the old units replaced with new units and if they don't perform as promised after being tested, the purchase price gets refunded.
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Old 2008-05-30, 9:08am
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Patti, UO tests their machines before they send them out. They run every single one of them for a length of time (Jack could tell you how long. I've heard him talk about letting them run at least over night) and they take readings to make sure it does what they say it does. Jack has all the flow meters and purity gizmos. He's not sending out machines hoping they do what they promise. He knows... Kimberly is not the manufacturer, so hooking up meters to a machine was brand new for her. Jack can give us those results on any machine he sends out.

and that's why I have a really hard time understanding the results Kimberly shared. Jack would never send out a machine performing like that... and any time there have been problems, Jack has stepped up to make it right. Just like he has here. Nobody wants to get to the bottom of this as bad as Jack does. He takes pride in his work and he cares about the end user being happy above all else.

Murf... they don't recall cars when they make an improvement the next year... there are far too many M-20s working really really well and there's no reason to recall them. None. If they tried to take mine, they'd have a fight on their hands.
I was wondering how long it would take you to start questioning the testing methods and say something like I did not know what I was doing.

Let me assure you, I know how to operate the analyzer. It is a very simple process - simple enough for anyone I would send the machine out to to understand and do. By saying that you are having a hard time believing my results because I am "new" at this, you are planting the seed of doubt that anyone else who would use the meter to test their machine (also "new" to this) could be in error and that their readings should be questioned. It sure sounds like you are trying to cover your bases for any future test results. What the heck are you so afraid of?

Why is it that only the UO crowd is questioning my results and the whole project, in general? I don't see anyone from AirSep or OGSI in here saying that I'm new at testing, so my results are questionable. EDIT: over on WC, my main competitor in the 5 LPM market is not only not questioning my results, he is confirming them!

And Brent, Jack may have tested something when it left his bench, but that does not mean that it is performing like that after being used for any length of time. Like I said earlier, I have received lots of reports of machines working fine (as far as they knew) for a while and then declining. Part of the project is to investigate that - not just for UO units, btw, but for all units out there.
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Old 2008-05-30, 9:11am
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Kimberly, Do you have the information I asked for? What does the GTT line up require to run at 100%? This information should be readily available from your husband. Can you please post it?
Brent, I have already posted that information all over this site and others. I'll post it again on the data thread I am preparing.

Edit: Oh, but since you earlier discussed how the Hurricane was not powerful enough to run the Phantom without a booster... that may be true. It all depends on what you want to do with the torch. Last night, I was making soft glass beads using my Phantom on a single Regalia (putting out ~8 LPM at my altitude). For what I was doing that required the outfire (getting a long soft glass bead hot enough to press), it was just what I needed. Obviously, working hotter would require more.

UO claims that the Hurricane puts out 15 LPM at 20 psi. The Phantom needs between 35-40 cfh (16.5 - 18.9 LPM) to get its maximum usable flame. The pressure requirements are 15-20 psi.


Oh, and do you have an answer to the question I asked you, earlier? What did you mean when you said that you had to re-educate some people about what was possible on a concentrator? Were they expecting something and the machine not live up to it? What were they expecting? That's the problem with the subjective claims out there - they inevitably lead to disappointment.
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Old 2008-05-30, 8:04pm
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Well Kimberly, you cannot even accept my apology with any grace. You still doubt everything I say. I did not say anyone was responsible for my info, I simply stated that they helped me in aquiring the info that I was going by. At this point, after your latest post, I truely dont believe that there is anything I can say or do to satisfy you. I also dont see any point in dragging this on by sending you more units. I dont believe you can be bias. One simple case in fact is that you have never contacted me by phone stating your concerns to ME, not to someone else, that you have about the units you recieved. Everyone calls me if they have a problem. You stated that I should be making all the calls to the torch companies, and in fact said that you have made those calls, yet I have never heard from you. I even met you in person and you never mentioned it. I had many beers with the owner of GTT, nothing was ever brought up. Im not doubting that there could be problems and I am still not calling you a liar. Just practice what you preach. I will accept the units back and I will refund your money. I will also post my findings. Send them back. jack
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Old 2008-05-30, 8:19pm
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spoke to a friend who is a respiratory therapist and works for a respiratory medical supply company,
its pretty easy to test your concentrator if you have a question. its pretty standard equipment that they use to test the concentrators that are going out for medical use. if you have a question regarding your own concentrator i would give a local company a call and get it tested.
i agree with dennis that when you have a vested interest its kind of hard to be impartial. that being said i LOVE my m15 and would not hesitate to buy from Mr Smiley again. brent you rock!
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Old 2008-05-30, 11:13pm
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spoke to a friend who is a respiratory therapist and works for a respiratory medical supply company,
its pretty easy to test your concentrator if you have a question. its pretty standard equipment that they use to test the concentrators that are going out for medical use. if you have a question regarding your own concentrator i would give a local company a call and get it tested.
i agree with dennis that when you have a vested interest its kind of hard to be impartial. that being said i LOVE my m15 and would not hesitate to buy from Mr Smiley again. brent you rock!
I have been encouraging people to test their concentrators - whether they think they have a problem or not. Keep in mind that concentrator performance can decline gradually and the user may not even know that they have a problem (like a frog in a pot of water) and it could mean that a unit is due for servicing - it could even be a simple fix like changing out filters. If they do not wish to use my machine, there may be places near them where they can take their units to get tested. I am offering mine so that they don't have to move a 50-60 pound piece of equipment around all over town.

But, I have a question for you. How can a properly calibrated machine be biased? What vested interest does the machine have? I am encouraging people to help build a database on concentrator measurements. Measurements are impartial. All I'm looking for are raw numbers.

And, I think it bears repeating: I am not singling out any specific brand to be tested. I tested the units that I have tested so far because they are the only ones I have here at my shop/studio. To be useful, this database should include as many different machines and brands as possible.
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Old 2008-05-31, 4:48am
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Just one more statement here. I have known Kimberly for many years, before she married Willy and before her concentrator business. I have never known Kimberly to be anything but honest. She is an intelligent and fair person. I do not believe she would EVER doctor numbers to make herself or her product look good. I believe that whatever numbers her oxygen analyzer gives her are the numbers she would publish, and I think she would work especially hard to make sure the analyzer was properly calibrated and double-check everything so that the numbers she gets are accurate.

With all the support I have seen come together in this community in the past week, all the positive energy toward correcting a problem, I find it frustrating that we all can't come together to support someone in our own community that is trying to give us data that we have never had before.

Whenever someone wants a concentrator/generator for any torch, everyone jumps in with "I love mine. It works perfectly." And that is really nice to know, but it is a very subjective opinion based on nothing more than your equipment works for you the way you want it to. We all work differently. There is no perfect torch, kiln, concentrator, generator that works perfectly for everyone. We need real data and Kimberly is giving us a great start. She is giving us real-life findings on her concentrators and on one that is out of production. She is offering to lend the analyzer to people so that they can test the output of their machines so that we have more information available when we go to buy what can be an expensive piece of equipment. Again, thank you, Kimberly, for bringing additional information to glass beadmakers.
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Old 2008-05-31, 9:35am
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Thank you, Pam, for your kind words and encouragement. I appreciate them more than you know.

Thank you, also, to those of you who have messaged me privately with your encouragement. I do not plan to give up on this project. It seems like there is only a small number of people who are opposed to the testing and they all seem to have a common denominator.
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Old 2008-05-31, 9:52am
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Well Kimberly, you cannot even accept my apology with any grace. You still doubt everything I say. I did not say anyone was responsible for my info, I simply stated that they helped me in aquiring the info that I was going by. At this point, after your latest post, I truely dont believe that there is anything I can say or do to satisfy you. I also dont see any point in dragging this on by sending you more units. I dont believe you can be bias. One simple case in fact is that you have never contacted me by phone stating your concerns to ME, not to someone else, that you have about the units you recieved. Everyone calls me if they have a problem. You stated that I should be making all the calls to the torch companies, and in fact said that you have made those calls, yet I have never heard from you. I even met you in person and you never mentioned it. I had many beers with the owner of GTT, nothing was ever brought up. Im not doubting that there could be problems and I am still not calling you a liar. Just practice what you preach. I will accept the units back and I will refund your money. I will also post my findings. Send them back. jack
Jack, you are pretty slick. You have no right to come on here and play the victim. What you tried to do to GTT and Pyronamix (me) was libel, plain and simple. You strutted onto this thread with your "I'm going to set the record straight" attitude and proceeded to boldly state as fact that GTT never bought those machines. And then when called on it and presented with the proof, you back-pedaled and started making all those excuses of how everyone else around you was at fault for the information you acted on and that you had no knowledge of what had been going on. That, sir, is BS and I called you on that, too. You knew what was what. But, we decided that you stepping up and making things right would be enough to satisfy us. That, Jack, is grace. We were as gracious as we could be under the circumstances.

As for going back on your word, I figured that you would find some way to reneg on the deal (and blame someone else for it in the process).
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Old 2008-05-31, 9:52am
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I've been following this thread with interest...and it's just now I feel I need to say something.

I own an M-20 and I have an M-15 on order. While I'm very interested in the data Kimberly is supplying it does nothing to sway my decision regarding the order of a new M-15. Why? Because apparently I'm one of the folks who got a 'good' one in the M-20 and once I find something I like I stick with it.

My husband drives a Ford...I refuse. I drive a Chevy...he hates it. Both are good vehicles that have stayed away from the mechanics. Would I switch to a Ford because Ford was putting out data that Chevy was dismissing as being out of line? Not a chance. Same thing here...I can sit here and read the data, read the bickering, and even laugh but the fact remains that until I see a good reason to switch I'm still gonna drive a Chevy and I'm still gonna use the UO oxy cons.

Having said that...thank you Kimberly for the data, it's been most informative.
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Old 2008-05-31, 9:59am
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Thank you, Alex.

Hey, if you have some time and would be interested in contributing to the database, test your M-20 and post the results. I acknowledged in the first post of this thread that there were people out there with good experiences with those machines. I think that it would only be fair/right that they are included in the database.
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Old 2008-05-31, 10:03am
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Kimberly...if I had something to test it with I would...but, I don't have (at least I don't think I do) the tool necessary and it would be difficult at best to take it somewhere around here to have tested...

What sort of tool is used, and would that be something we might have around here?
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Old 2008-05-31, 10:42am
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I am making my analyzer available for others to use to measure their own machines. I would have to charge for shipping costs (shipping and insurance would not be that much, this unit is pretty small/light) and wear on the machine (nominal cost of $10) and take a deposit to cover the cost of the analyzer (the deposit would be refunded upon return of the undamaged analyzer). The one I have costs $570, so I will likely be purchasing a less expensive unit that only measures oxygen concentration so the deposit would be smaller.

I would also encourage anyone who did not want to use my analyzer, but had access to another analyzer to contact me and contribute to this project. As far as sending mine out, I would waive the wear fee for any ISGB chapter that would like to use my analyzer to have a concentrator check-up clininc. A lot of times, decline in performance is gradual and a user may not realise that they are not getting what they used to out of their machine. A quick check up could let them know if they need to have their unit serviced. This would be especially helpful if it caught a problem within the warranty period of a machine. Sometimes, they just need a filter change. So, I am hoping that this project will end up being of more help than just a database would be.

EDIT: I forgot to answer the specific question you asked about what tool is used. My analyzer is a unit that includes an oxygen concentration analyzer (reads purity), a flow meter (reads LPM), and a pressure gauge. It is the Pro2 Check Elite by Salter Labs. However, there are other oxygen monitors out there. Many of them do not read at flow rates as high as mine, though. We want to know the purity at the highest rated output of each machine, so if you have an analyzer that only reads purity at a flow rate of 1-6 LPM, then you have to work around that. It's easy and I can post what to do in the other thread that I am preparing to post.
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Old 2008-05-31, 11:04am
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As I figured...we don't have one of those hanging around. When I get a few extra dollars I'll be in touch with you regarding borrowing yours...thanks for making it available!
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