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Studio -- Show us your studio setup |
2024-07-10, 2:10pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Nov 11, 2008
Location: Greater Boston area
Posts: 10
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Torch/Kiln Heat in Studio
Hello again, my glassy friends… It's been awhile…. Been making beads (moretti) for about 16 years and have gotten lots of amazing info here when I built my first home studio and then again when I did a bigger 6-torch teaching studio build-out in 2017. (So grateful for Dale, Mike A, and many others for all of the tips and advice). Have operated my teaching glass studio/gift shop in Metrowest Massachusetts for the past 7 years….
Hoping to stay more active here and give back whatever I can to those who started out fresh and green like me. :0.
I hopped on today with a question about how kiln and torch heat affects ambient room temperature. I searched the forums and threads but came up empty, so I apologize if I'm just missing a thread related to this...
My glass studio and gift shop is located in a mid-size "industrialish" building, with 4 other small businesses. My space is roughly 950sq ft. Love my space. HATE my landlord. Building needs a ton of work and she is just negligent. My HVAC was very old and has needed to be replaced for as long as I've been here. Heat just quits sometimes in winter and AC stops for days at a time in summer. Landlord finally had the condenser replaced last week, and now it's much better.
I teach kids' summer camps and typically have 4-5 minor burners running with 2-3 Chilipepper kilns running. It makes it warmer in my shop, for sure, but my question is - how much do the torches and kilns affect the ambient temperature in the room? I was down for 6 days until she finally came around and agreed to fix the AC. Lost around $800 in class fees (they pay ahead when they register online) because I wasn't able to reschedule the sessions. I'm deducting this amount from my rent, but she is arguing that the reason she needed to replace the system in the first place is "because of the torches" She thinks they make the space hotter. I agree the kilns make it a little warmer and the torches emit some heat, but with the ventilation system, it's pretty concentrated. I've been running an experiment with my kilns and torches to see how they actually affect room temp. But I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this? Or do you know approximately how much their heat would affect the room temp? She is ignorant and irrational so I'd like to have some actual data to counter her claims. Any thoughts? Thanks!
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2024-07-10, 3:43pm
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Slogan Challenged...
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Join Date: Mar 21, 2009
Location: Maricopa, Arizona
Posts: 6,480
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Well sure, a torch & kiln both would warm up a room. For me, not enough to avoid running the heat during the winter for my insulated, standard size garage studio. For several torches or kilns, not sure.
But in any case, any actual data would have to come from professionals. The torch manufacturers or kiln makers might have something. But the answer is going to be, it depends.....how long are they run. What kind of ventilation system do you have? What kind of kilns and how long they are run? How big is the space, and what kind of insulation is there? Etc.
And I don't think that the data really matters at all. I doubt very much that any HVAC professional said that!!
I would take the position that it has nothing to do with your work, if the AC needed repairs then it needs repairs. It would be running in the summer regardless of anything else. Never admit liability or even appear reasonable. Draw the line. You are just the tenant. The landlord knew what your business entailed from the beginning. She is the one with the obligations.
You really need some legal advice. The fact she is willing to dump her responsibilities on you is not promising. And withholding it from your rent may break your lease or at the very least, you will incur penalties for late payment and then you still might have to move. It can affect your credit or your ability to find a new place.
So unless you are prepared to move your studio & business, find out your rights and get all the conversations and text messages or emails recorded & saved. Again, an HVAC professional would not have told her that!
Good luck
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Kristin ~
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2024-07-10, 4:15pm
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Member
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Join Date: Aug 31, 2023
Location: Fairfield, California
Posts: 84
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Gonna have to do your own experiments i think. You would i guess need a few days when the temperature is the same outside, and get some thermometers to test with torches on and torches off?
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2024-07-10, 5:09pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 31, 2006
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 2,273
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I can attest that 30 torches and 6 kilns were not sufficient to warm up the space used for a retreat I attended one March. It was freezing in there. One big room. About 1200sqft
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Kathy
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2024-07-10, 7:07pm
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Slogan Challenged...
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Join Date: Mar 21, 2009
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Yeah she could do her own experiments but right now, i don't think she needs to lend any credibility to that claim. It came from a layman who was making excuses. Eh.
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Kristin ~
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2024-07-10, 10:21pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Nov 11, 2008
Location: Greater Boston area
Posts: 10
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Thanks guys. This is pretty much what I thought, but it is helpful to hear other peoples' experiences. I told her straight up that the torches and kiln had nothing to do with the AC issues. (Some days when I'd get in around 8am - the temp would be 82 degrees and torches have been off for 2 or more days.). Kristen- really good points. I think I'll give those fabulous folks down at Jen Ken in FL a call tomorrow and maybe also have a chat with Dan at Wale about the minors. I have a 24-sq bench with a slightly smaller hood with about 3000 cfm in-line ventilation, along with make up air. Smooth duct work, all professionally installed. (pic is attached). My 3 chili pepper Jen Ken kilns never run above 980 and I have 4 minors and 1 mega minor. Some days the whole shebang runs for 6ish hours, other days just one torch and kiln for an hour or two. Just depends on classes and open studio rentals.
I've been renting from this wackadoodle for 7 years and the other tenants (not glass businesses) have all had similar experiences. She is shifty and just wants to collect a check every month and pretend any issues will just fade away over time. My lease has language that essentially says if building repairs need to be made that interfere with the lessee's ability to conduct business, the lessee would be entitled to a "proportionate reduction of rent while repairs are being made". I think this is just the straw that broke the camel's back. I've lost income because she didn't take care of a problem she's known about for years, and then the system finally broke during a 90 degree heatwave. I had to shut down for almost a week while she played around trying to find the cheapest way to fix it. I couldn't run classes in that heat, and some of the students couldn't reschedule. So...I fee; like this is the only way to make it clear that I'm done putting up with her crap.
And this issue pales in comparison with other problems I've had with her. When the tenants next door left recently and new folks moved in, they started locking the door to the passthrough space that connected our units. So, I now have no emergency exit and no wheelchair access. My stupidity for not thinking to make sure she put something about it in their lease. And yep - I've been in touch with my attorney and have sent the landlord letters and documented all calls and emails. She is just dragging her feet, hoping the issue will just go away quietly. Yes, in the end, she faces the most liability if anything happens or if there's an ADA lawsuit. But I will still bear some responsibility and God forbid anything ever happened and we needed to use an alternate exit in an emergency.
For years, I've let her essentially intimidate me. I've been on a year-to-year lease and never really wanted to rock the boat, so I've put up with a lot. She tried to sell the building a few years ago and I was on eggshells for months thinking I'd have to move. I've looked for new spaces over the years, but never found anything that would work as well for my studio and retail space. I did a small remodel about 18 months ago and really love the space we've created, despite the fact that she continually stresses me out and it's a hard way to run a business.
I'm getting to the point where I'm ready to just shut the whole thing down, get the hell out of there and wait for however long it takes to find a new location and do a build out.
Ok. thanks again. I'll keep you all posted....
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2024-07-10, 10:22pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Nov 11, 2008
Location: Greater Boston area
Posts: 10
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2024-07-11, 6:09am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 31, 2022
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 157
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I am an engineer in my day job. These things get very complicated, very fast, as it depends hugely on the construction of the building. That said, some general rules of thumb that can help you evaluate if your torches and kilns are a problem:
1) Assuming you have proper ventilation (exhaust and make-up air) almost all the torch heat places no additional load on the air conditioning, because that hot gas is immediately sucked outside by the ventilation.
2) Ventilation, both exhaust being pulled outside and the outside air sucked into the make-up vent is a fairly large load on AC/Heat. In some cases, it can be a greater heating/cooling load than all other sources would be if the room was not ventilated. There are calculators online that can help you calculate the heat load of your ventilation if you know the CFM you are pulling through, the inside temp and humidity, and the outside temp and humidity. The total heat load from ventilation is the energy of the outside air coming in minus the energy of the inside air being vented out.
3) The heat load from your kilns is very easy to calculate. At that absolute worst, it's the max power of the kiln (most kilns have a Watts power rating listed on the data plate, if not, it's Watts = Voltage X Amperage. The heat output/heat load form a kiln is exactly equal to the electrical supply it uses. Most annealing kilns run at a low duty cycle while holding temp and annealing/cooling, something like 30%-50%, and only run at full power when heating up. If you only have small bead kilns, it's likely that the heat load from each one is comparable to having a high performance gaming computer in the space, not a huge load.
If the space is uninsulated, or poorly insulated, and has old windows, your activities are probably a small fraction of the heating/cooling heat load. However, if the opposite is the case, that there are no windows or small windows, and the space is well sealed and insulated, then your ventilation is very likely a BIG portion of the heat load on the space.
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2024-07-11, 3:33pm
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Slogan Challenged...
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Join Date: Mar 21, 2009
Location: Maricopa, Arizona
Posts: 6,480
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Still unlikely that she is responsible for the repairs to a building's old HVAC unit. Apparently now, it was having problems for years. I wonder if it is documented at all, with previous complaints? That would be good.
If your lease allows you to do that, well then it's a tough call since you want to keep the space. She sounds like she gets even.
And since you have a year to year lease (ugh) I would suggest following through on Kevins advice and also continuing to chat with the companies. Because she could always raise the rent, when you renew your lease, stating that you cause her to incur more expenses than normal. So all that info will do you some good!
Hugs, sorry it's so hard. Hang in there
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Kristin ~
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2024-07-29, 7:17pm
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J R Hooper
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Join Date: Feb 14, 2008
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 306
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Wouldn't the ventilation suck a lot of the AC/Heat out of the building as well? We have a fireplace and just leaving the flue for it open in the winter sucks a lot of heat out of the house, and that isn't actively pulling air out... It's kind of a moot point though, if the building is supposed to have a HVAC system then it's on the Landlord to keep it up and running regardless of what is going inside, that seems like one of those basic water and access to utilities kind of deals to me. If she's that much of a pain in the neck, I'd just cut mud out of there and find somebody who keeps their end of the deal. There's not much worse than a bad landlord, the wife and I had a nightmare one back in the late 90's and our lives were a living hell until we got out of there.
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2024-08-06, 1:11pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Aug 06, 2024
Posts: 3
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What a mess with that landlord. Sounds like a real nightmare! I totally get your frustration
About the heat from kilns and torches:
Yeah, it makes your space warmer, but how much exactly? That depends on so many things.
With good ventilation, most of the heat from the torches goes straight outside. Sounds like you've got that sorted out well.
Those kilns? Sure, they give off some heat, but not nearly enough to wreck a whole AC system.
Funny how someone had 30 torches and 6 kilns and it was still cold. Says enough, doesn't it?
That engineer's right - it's super complicated. But it sounds like your equipment isn't really the culprit here.
Honestly? It sounds like your landlord is just trying to dodge her responsibilities. That AC was simply old and due for replacement, period.
My advice? Document everything, talk to a lawyer, and maybe start looking around for a new place. I know you're attached to your space, but this stress really isn't worth it.
Hang in there! Let us know how it turns out.
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2024-08-06, 9:23pm
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Slogan Challenged...
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Join Date: Mar 21, 2009
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I hope we hear an update!
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Kristin ~
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2024-08-07, 3:35am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Aug 06, 2024
Posts: 3
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Me too
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2024-08-07, 3:36am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Aug 06, 2024
Posts: 3
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Hope everything goes well
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