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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions.

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  #1  
Old 2013-05-10, 6:52am
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bepnewt bepnewt is offline
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Default First real time with Boro

I finally was able to have some "personal time" with the Bravo last night - it's been weeks. I have a lot of small Boro scraps, a bunch of scrap clear, a few larger clear rods, and a good selection of cool Boro colors from Salt City.

It was time to get over my fear and see how this stuff melts. The only thing I've done with Boro before was stick a small, clear rod in the flame of the old Wildcat to see what happened. The result was "not much." The Bravo was hungry and I had some Boro to feed it!

Holy moly, what a big difference between Boro and soft glass. You knew it, I've read about it, and now I've actually experienced it. I tried to make a small marble out of mostly clear and random shorts added in. My goal was to get something into the kiln and back out of it so I didn't really care what it looked like.

I took a large clear rod and melted small pieces of random color on it then took another large clear rod and just mushed the clear and color together a bit. At this point, I was just seeing what kind of heat was required to melt this stuff. I used the centerfire ( M20 + propane ) and it was able to melt it but I don't think it's doing as good of a job as it should. I cranked up the outerfire ( tanked + propane ) and got the results I was looking for.

So, my first problem is I don't understand the flame types as well as I should. I know there are videos out there on the Bravo's flame so I will be checking them out again. I watched them all before I got the torch, but I need to revisit them. For this small sub-1" marble, I shouldn't have needed the outerfire to get the job done.

My second problem is now I know why:
1) There are so many Boro shorts for sale now and then
2) People wear arm protection against the heat

When using the outerfire it's real hard to have the hands near the flame. My Bravo is putting off some _serious_ heat. I see me tacking a lot of shorts onto longer rods in the future! I wasn't quite prepared for the wash of heat.

I never got the glass into a sphere. It was more like an asteroid than a planet. Regardless, I popped it into the kiln. That's when I realized I don't have a Boro schedule programmed in. Oops. So, since this was just a test for fun, I just shut the kiln off and let it cool down naturally. I doubted it would explode, but didn't mind if it cracked.

I looked at it this morning. It was as ugly as I expected, but hadn't cracked - at least not in a normal way. The color shorts I used were from the same person, but I think one of them may have not been Boro or something. There were the expected swirls of color in the "marble", but where one color was, it was shattered. But, only where that color was swirled. And the shattered parts were all encased. It definitely looks odd, and I imagine the whole thing might explode some day.

I need to do the normal compatibility test on that color and see if maybe it's not Boro. I hope I didn't get sold of lot of Boro shorts that has a mismatch of COE in it, but I can see how that might happen.

So, next step is learning the flame on this torch. I know some people on here make smaller mibs using mainly the centerfire so I know it's possible. Along with learning the flame, I need more patience.

All in all, it was a productive time. I have avoided trying Boro marbles because I wanted to be able to make them in soft glass first, but now that I've tried the hard stuff, I want to do it some more! I have a lot of scrap clear and colored shorts to play with. Game on.

-BEP
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  #2  
Old 2013-05-10, 7:47am
pattycake pattycake is offline
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wow that was great, I too am new to boro, having done some at a friends house ( studio), my kiln just arrived, have the torch , waiting for the concentrator. been making beads but i want boro sculpture, will just start with clear, being the cheepest color, loops still giving me problems (ugh, really, that just kills me, should be so simple, and one day it will) , thanks for sharring
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  #3  
Old 2013-05-10, 7:47am
pattycake pattycake is offline
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"bravo flame videos?/ where did you watch these?? thanks
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  #4  
Old 2013-05-10, 8:12am
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istandalone24/7 istandalone24/7 is offline
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bepnewt, get yourself a couple rods of GA's Amazon Night and use that to test/practice setting a neutral flame.
get your candles so that the tips of them are defined, not fuzzy looking (normal working size flame) and heat about 1/2" of the amazon rod until it glows orange. if your flame is reducing (or even on the reducing side of neutral) the rod will discolor. if your flame is oxidizing (or on the oxy side of neutral) the rod should stay black.

once you learn what a neutral flame looks like on your torch, you'll also know what reducing and oxydizing looks like.

doesn't have to be that GA color, some NS colors will do the same, blue caramel being one of them. although i think even with an oxy flame, blue caramel will haze somewhat. but with b caramel you'll be able to tell.
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  #5  
Old 2013-05-10, 8:26am
Talonst Talonst is offline
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Probably going to be spinning your wheels with the center fire on the concentrator. I don't have a bravo but I do have an alpha and it uses quite of bit of O2 at larger settings, more that the concentrator can come up with I would suspect. If you have tanked use it for both center and outer.

Once you establish your heat base you should be able to use the inner for detail with occasional reheats with the outer and then for final rounding.

for smaller marbles a simple annealing approach is to set your kiln for 1050 and leave your marbles in for an hour for every inch of thickness and then just shut it off and let if go back to ambient.
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  #6  
Old 2013-05-10, 8:50am
deb tarry deb tarry is offline
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I use the outer flame for shaping of all my marbles (I have a bravo) using just the centre fire is too slow for me. I know you can get away with using just the center fire but the reason I got the bigger torch is so I could go at it faster.
You mentioned some of the color cracking inside the marble and I agree it could me a different coe but there i another thing it could be and that is certain colours when worked to aggressively in the flame with to much propane will 'craze' (I think that is the correct term) The color goes all crystal-like, greens will do that as well as some others that are not coming to mind right now.
I was given some advise to turn down my oxy to get more heat as to much oxy will cool the flame but there is a fine line to that as is will be on the reducing side and colours will mud up. I like the suggestion of getting some amazon night or such to test the flame chemistry. Have fun I love my bethlehem bravo and have used it for almost two years now though when I get a chance I will be upgrading as the size I want to do most of the time now is 2 inch and bigger and I am getting impatient.
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  #7  
Old 2013-05-10, 8:59am
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Hurray for you for going for it!

Sad to say it never occurred to me to "just make something" because I'm stumped on the boro annealling. I don't know how long to set it for at temps etc. so I haven't done anything for fear of doing it wrong.
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  #8  
Old 2013-05-10, 9:10am
Talonst Talonst is offline
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Your flame is hottest when it's brilliant blue, when its starts to become a soft more transparent blue it's oxidizing and cooler. But it's not just about reducing vs. oxidizing or neutral. The way the oxygen is used, especially on a 2 stage torch, has alot to do with how the heat penetrates the mass of glass and the speed that it happens.

In an over under setup all you have is the chemistry of each individual torch, or the meeting point of those 2 flames if they're pointed in such a way to meet. With a multistage torch the stages can be used to modify one another. So you can use the inner alone, or the outer alone (like 2 separate torches) or use them together in different ways to impact both the chemistry and the penetration. An example would be to use the outer fire with just the inner O2, or to use and oxidizing inner flame with a softer outer setting.

If the way you want to work, or need to work, to achieve a particular detail does not provide the proper chemistry for the color you're using then encase the color in clear first.
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  #9  
Old 2013-05-10, 9:12am
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Thanks for the tips/info everyone.

Video(s): I just now searched on YouTube for the Bravo videos and I don't see one now that shows the different flames. There are other ones that aren't specific to the Bravo, though. I really thought there was a Bravo-specific one. I may be thinking of the Scorpion, though. I read and watched a lot of stuff on both torches before the Bravo purchase.

Amazon Night: I think Donna threw in a rod or 2 of Amazon Night for me in my orders to test the flame with. Thanks for the reminder.

Concentrator: I'm going to stick with the M20 for now on the center. Other folks are running the same thing and are successful, but they also know what they're doing. I'm still a complete noob. After I get a lot of hours under my belt, if I feel like I need more O2 flowing on the center, I'll "Y" the tank. The Heat Base is something I need to get in tune with. Everything revolves around where the heat is and how much there is, and I have so much to learn in this arena.

Crazing: That's EXACTLY what's going on, it's crazing. The color was a dull blue-green that was leaning more on the green side. I grabbed that short because I didn't like the color and figured it was a good one to waste. Thanks for letting me know about this possibility - the idea of mixed COE rods in my Boro shorts pile was bother me.

Going for it: What helped was going into it with no expectations. That was good, because what I ended up with wasn't even close to spherical. But, I learned a lot and am ready to make another go at it.

-BEP
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Lifelong glass lover, now getting to work with it. Using a Bravo on an M20 & Natural Gas ( inner ), Tanked O2 & Propane ( outer ).
Grew up near
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  #10  
Old 2013-05-10, 10:49am
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Welcome to the dark side! I think you are going to find that you will want to use tanked on both the inner and outer fires when working with boro. Also working further out in the flame helps both with the heat and the flame chemistry. It's true that the flame is the hottest at the tip of the candle, on a premix, but you want more heat not hotter. Further out in the flame you have a wider area that is hot enough. What are your regulator settings? I run between 3 and 5 psi on the propane and 15 on the oxy, seems to be the sweet spot for my setup. You should be able to work with 18mm rod with just the inner fire.

From recent personal experience boro does flow and become a puddle at 2000 F.
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  #11  
Old 2013-05-11, 12:03pm
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I was taught 9 minutes for every 1mm of boro thickness at 1050° and that's from a functional production glass blower.

Hope this helps.

√THIS IS ONLY FOR AFTER ANNEALING √

Oh and the strain point is 950° so ramp down from 1050° to below 925° or so then you can turn off the kiln to cool if it has a good heat base.(all commercial kilns should be fine id think)
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  #12  
Old 2013-05-11, 11:33pm
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When I first transitioned from soft glass to boro I wanted to be able to use both in the same work session. Someone from Arrow Springs (they sold me the kiln) told me to do the boro first, garaging at 1050, then when I was ready to switch over to soft glass, to set the controller to the temperature (950? I honestly can't remember at the moment) you set to garage for soft. Wait until the temperature comes down to that temp, which will take a bit of time, to start putting your soft glass in the kiln. Then just run the soft glass annealing cycle at the end of your day. This might not actually anneal the boro glass to make it market-ready, but it will allow your marbles/beads to cool down slowly, and reduce thermal cracking. Especially if your working on a mandrel. It certainly won't hurt, and allows you to practice boro without having to choose it over soft.
Once you figure out how to program your boro annealing schedule, you can batch anneal everything to make sure it's good to go out the door.
I hope this isn't outdated information. I found it very helpful and liberating to be able to practice something new for a while and then move on to doing some stuff I had experience with.

Last edited by Liquidsand; 2013-05-11 at 11:36pm. Reason: Grammar
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  #13  
Old 2013-05-13, 9:49am
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For annealing schedules see Contemporary Lampworking, all the formulas (formulae) are in there AND their usage is explained very well.
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  #14  
Old 2013-05-19, 6:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deb tarry View Post
I use the outer flame for shaping of all my marbles (I have a bravo) using just the centre fire is too slow for me. I know you can get away with using just the center fire but the reason I got the bigger torch is so I could go at it faster.
You mentioned some of the color cracking inside the marble and I agree it could me a different coe but there i another thing it could be and that is certain colours when worked to aggressively in the flame with to much propane will 'craze' (I think that is the correct term) The color goes all crystal-like, greens will do that as well as some others that are not coming to mind right now.
I was given some advise to turn down my oxy to get more heat as to much oxy will cool the flame but there is a fine line to that as is will be on the reducing side and colours will mud up. I like the suggestion of getting some amazon night or such to test the flame chemistry. Have fun I love my bethlehem bravo and have used it for almost two years now though when I get a chance I will be upgrading as the size I want to do most of the time now is 2 inch and bigger and I am getting impatient.
Hi Deb-
When you (specifically, and in the general "you") talk about 2 inches in boro, or other dimensions, are you referring to solid work or tubing too? Thanks!
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  #15  
Old 2013-05-20, 6:51pm
deb tarry deb tarry is offline
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Solid 2" inch marble made from a 20mm solid rod.
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  #16  
Old 2013-05-20, 10:08pm
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Thanks!
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  #17  
Old 2013-05-21, 10:23pm
uncle louie uncle louie is offline
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Hey Brian,I have a beth alpha wich is the bravo's centerfire running with an m15 and I can work up to 16mm rod just have to be patient but it will melt it.
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  #18  
Old 2013-05-22, 8:01am
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Thanks, Louie - good to know.

Love the avatar pic. Charger? It gave me incentive to finally put an avatar pic up for me - my '64 Riv.

A link to the side view:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...hWheels_01.jpg
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Brian E. Parker aka BEPNewt
Lifelong glass lover, now getting to work with it. Using a Bravo on an M20 & Natural Gas ( inner ), Tanked O2 & Propane ( outer ).
Grew up near
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Old 2013-05-22, 9:20am
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istandalone24/7 istandalone24/7 is offline
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kickass! i love the old buicks!

not as classis as yours, but my dream car is a 1987 grand national. i had a friend who owned one, thing was a fucking rocket!
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Old 2013-05-22, 11:11am
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bepnewt bepnewt is offline
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I think I'll be able to get back on the torch tomorrow for the first time since the initial post. My weekend just got stolen by travelling and cookouts.

Thanks for all the helpful tips and hints, folks. I need to get my Kiln programmed with a Boro schedule soon, for sure!

-BEP

Buicks - The GN was a fun machine. There are a couple cherry ones here in the Tulsa area. One usually shows up at the weekly Tuesday cruise nights at Fudruckers and there are always a couple in the car shows here each year.
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Brian E. Parker aka BEPNewt
Lifelong glass lover, now getting to work with it. Using a Bravo on an M20 & Natural Gas ( inner ), Tanked O2 & Propane ( outer ).
Grew up near
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  #21  
Old 2013-05-22, 9:35pm
uncle louie uncle louie is offline
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It's a 70 R/T Charger 440 6 pack very fast,love the '64 Riviera very cool!!!
The avatar is the wrong car I'm still working on the body getting it ready for
paint. Will post pix when done
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