Oxy concentrator question

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

If you expect to deal in technicalities, where does that expection become unrealistic? You don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive a car. You don't need to know the specific temperature at which different glass softens when heated. Why would you need to know the technical specifics of an oxycon to use one to fuel a torch?

You may not care about how the internal combustion engine works, but I'll bet you want to know how many miles per gallon (MPG) you can expect to get with a particular vehicle and you would probably like to know how well that vehicle holds up on the road after being run for a couple of years. You might also want to know how much horsepower it has.

I think it is very important to know that at 8 LPM, some concentrators are not producing 90% purity (what we need for lampworking), and that those concentrators may have to be turned down to 5-6 LPM in order to get acceptable purity.

When someone is looking to save money, it becomes even more important because why would they spend a big chunk of money on something that will only perform well at 5-6 LPM when they could spend half as much and get something else?

Now, those are the kind of technicalities that I generally talk about. When people ask for detailed explanations of why something is happening on their set-up, then I tend to get into more detail about things.

ETA: To expand on the car analogy.

Knowing what MPG a car gets is technical, but not as technically involved as the workings of the internal combustion engine.

I would rather know the actual MPG a car has (what is measured out in the field, not just what the sticker says) than to simply go by someone else's claim, "Hey, I have one of those cars and I only have to fill up every other week." Yeah, well, how many miles did you drive in-between fill-ups? Or even, "My car can climb that hill just fine." Well, that's great, but how long did it take you to get up that hill (how big was that hill and how fast were you going?

[kbinkster]

You know what, I don't want to paint things with a broad brush.

I have tested three concentrators that were supposed to put out 8 LPM at 15 psi and 90% purity and on all three of them, 8 LPM did not produce 90% purity. At this point, it would be unfair to say that all of the units from those two particular brands perform as poorly. For all I know, those three units (and the other six machines [different models] from the same company that I have experience with that performed poorly) and the bad machines reported by other people could be wild flukes.

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

A single 5 LPM DeVilbiss or Invacare will let you do that on a Bobcat. Adding a second unit will allow you to do it faster or make larger beads more easily, or even to work small boro.

DeVilbiss is a good machine. I believe, from what I have been told, that the Invacare is a little bit higher quality. However, both are great for lampworking. I've heard good things about the Healthdyne Alliance units, too.

I like recommending the DeVilbiss units in case you plan to upgrade to a torch that requires a higher psi later on.

When Renee started this thread asking if she should get her M-15 from Heritage or M-15, (note that she did NOT ask for recommendation on M-15 but where she should buy it!) you dished out your testing to slam the M-15 once again.

When bbnana asked for a recommendation for his/her Bobcat, you advised him on getting the DeVilbiss (one of the machines you sell).

It seems to me that for your posts (and your data) to be unbiased then you should also have shown the poor purity result of the DeVilbiss you tested, especially since you are recommending that particular brand to someone in this thread.

Originally Posted by kbinkster

)
Model: DeVilbiss MC84
Specs: 5 LPM, 8.5 psi, 90%
Tested: 06/06/08

Comments: reconditioned and purchased from me 10/08, used on average 20 hrs/wk, indoor basement studio, elevation 6000-6500 ft., analyzer set to elevation prior to testing, normally dry climate tested on overcast day, used to make small boro pendants on Bobcat, first concentrator for owner – has not used tanked oxygen with her torch

Flow Rate set on machine: 5 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 4.1 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 79.9 – 82.2%
Pressure: 7.7 psi

Noticed filter was very dirty (never cleaned). Turned off machine and owner vacuumed filter. Turned on machine and allowed it to run 10 minutes. Re-tested.

Flow Rate set on machine: 5 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 4.2 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 80.1 - 82.3%
Pressure: 7.7 psi

[kbinkster]

Hey, Hayley, here's the part that got cut off (unless you click to read the rest on the post):

Notes: The owner informed me that unit had arrived in badly beaten box, but unit appeared undamaged when unpacked. Owner also mentioned below normal operation indicator light illuminated (I had not noticed), no audible alarm sounded. I spoke with supplier and it was determined that there is a leak in the system. Unit will be replaced. I was embarrassed that the machine was not functioning properly, but was glad that I tested it. Otherwise, the owner would have just kept on going with a machine that was not putting out what it should.

It is rare that you hear of problems with the DeVilbiss units if they are properly reconditioned and have not been damaged in shipping.

It is not rare to hear of problems with the UO machines. That Tornado we ran at the KC Gathering that did not run a Lynx like 10 LPM/20 psi should run it did not have had any shipping problems - the manufacturer was right there and did not say that it was malfunctioning.

The only reason I came onto this thread was because someone else posted a link to my oxygen analyzer thread (the thread linked in this thread). The original poster, Renee, said that it was an interesting read, but that she was more confused than ever. I came in at that point and posted because one of my posts and one of my threads had been cited and Renee said that she was confused.

The rest of what I posted was in response to subsequent posts.

[Good Ol' Boy]

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

If you expect to deal in technicalities, where does that expection become unrealistic? You don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive a car. You don't need to know the specific temperature at which different glass softens when heated. Why would you need to know the technical specifics of an oxycon to use one to fuel a torch?

In the same respect. If the salesman tells me the car I am looking at will get
38 Miles per gallon and it actually gets 22 mpg Im gonna be pretty upset.
I think this hits this whole issue right on the head.
Getting raw data is the proper way to do things. Sounds like its well overdue.
Brent and Dennis should get on board and help with this research instead of getting on the defensive. Is there some kind of information that you do not want revealed ? Time to be proactive guys and help with the data collection process.

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by Good Ol' Boy

In the same respect. If the salesman tells me the car I am looking at will get
38 Miles per gallon and it actually gets 22 mpg Im gonna be pretty upset.
I think this hits this whole issue right on the head.
Getting raw data is the proper way to do things. Sounds like its well overdue.
Brent and Dennis should get on board and help with this research instead of getting on the defensive. Is there some kind of information that you do not want revealed ? Time to be proactive guys and help with the data collection process.

What defensive? Dennis have been steadily on the offensive. He wants the data but he wants it undoctored, unbiased and unslanted. Data is useless unless it reflects a reasonable level of neutrality. Ain't seen that yet. Sure would like to.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

What defensive? Dennis have been steadily on the offensive. He wants the data but he wants it undoctored, unbiased and unslanted. Data is useless unless it reflects a reasonable level of neutrality. Ain't seen that yet. Sure would like to.

Dennis, my numbers are undoctored and the numbers themselves are unbiased.

How is the following slanted or biased?

Machine A:
Flow Rate set on machine: 8 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 6.4 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 86.2 – 88%
Pressure: 13.9 – 14.0 psi

That is just a report on the numbers read by an analyzer. Now, if I say that that machine is advertised as putting out 8 LPM at 15 psi with 90% purity, then that puts it into the proper framework and gives those numbers some meaning. That does not make it a biased statement, though.

BTW, I have noticed a few times now that you sure like to refer to yourself in the third person. Well, at least you're not using the royal "we."

[Dennis Brady]

Well, at least you're not using the royal "we."

Dennis only does that when he's feeling beside himself.

[dogmaw]

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

Dennis only does that when he's feeling beside himself.

Oh goodness, this discussion gets heated enough without having to deal with multiple personalities! My offer still stands for me to do data analysis.

[pam]

Jo, just curiously, as a mathematician, what kind of data would you like to have in order to do an analysis?

For instance, I would like to see in situ data from users, perhaps after 0 to 1 year of use, 1 to 2 years, 2 to 3 years, etc. I would like to know what the manufacturer sells the machine as putting out and what it puts out in those periods of time. I would like to know the service required and the amount of hours on the machine. But that's me, and I'm not a math whiz. What do you think we need?

[Dennis Brady]

Oh goodness, this discussion gets heated enough without having to deal with multiple personalities!

Perhaps Dennis and his friend Dennis can help? Would you like me to ask them?

[JoeWokovich]

Well, thanks to those of you that gave a simple answer. At least the last couple of days have not been a complete waste of time.

Like Renee, I've been trying to figure out just what oxcon I wanted and needed. I do not pretend to be an expert in this field. I've been in glass for seven years that includes carving and kiln work. I have purchased a minor after taking some classes in torch from a place here in town. I thought that when I was pointed in the direction of this board, it would be a good place to learn and share glass experiences. Right now it seems like a great place to sit back drink a beer and watch the Friday night fights all week long. I agree with Renee, that response sure read like a cheap shot towards someone that was lacking in being a "professional" glass worker.
Being the new kid on the block I guess I should just sit back, keep my mouth shut, and watch the kids fight it out, but a board with all of this wealth of knowledge is too good a thing to watch fall apart and give negative feelings to folks just joining.

Of course, so I don't get someone's drawers in a snit, that's just my .02 cents.

Joe

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by oxydoc

My Respironics Technical Manual, which I purchased directly from Respironics, states the outlet pressure on a 5 liter Millennium should be 6 psig +/- 1 psig.

I emailed Respironics back on Monday and just now got an answer from them about the output pressure. I don't know if you're interested, but this is what they said:

Kimberly:

The oxygen outlet pressure with no flow is 6.0 +/- 1.0 psig, and @ 5lpm is 5.5 +/- 0.25 psig. I have attached the specifications for future inquiries.

Regards,

Product Support

[pam]

Again, Joe, my apologies if you took what I said that way. It was never meant to be an attack on Renee, despite how you took it. It was meant to stress that working with glass is an exacting, technical art form.

Those who come into it sometimes don't realize how much technical information we need to create our beads. Those who say we don't need technical data, but only customers' approbations, to me, are insulting glass beadmakers. We, of all the various disciplines of glass work, need technical information the most. We demand technical info on everything we use and there is no reason we shouldn't have it on our oxygen sources. If anyone doesn't feel that the technical data is important, then they are free to ignore it, but for many, many people who are using or plan on using these machines it is important to have this information before we dig deep into our pockets to make our purchase.

Do you have any idea how many glass beadmakers there are who have made the investment in a concentrator only to decide the one they purchased didn't meet their needs? Perhaps they need a larger one, or two or three chained together, to get the effect they want. Perhaps they could have only added another two or $300 to their initial purchase price and gotten one that would have worked perfectly in the beginning, rather than have to work with a machine that is not providing for their oxygen needs. Now, perhaps they will have to double their cost by adding a second machine, or even a third. Our purchase of such an important and somewhat costly piece of equipment does not need to be a matter of guesswork. With technical data we can then evaluate for ourselves what we need for our work.

[Blueflameart]

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

I heartily agree that if you want to slag someone's integrity or product, TAM is definitely the most appropriate place.

LOL We all know why you don't like the place Dennis, your thread has always enlightened most I can assure you ... and after this awesome saying ... Are you for real ??? Sell the sizzle, not the steak!, I'm sure many know just where your coming from. If you keep your mouth shut sometimes your foot won't pop into it....just saying. And btw, most people (99.999%) that have something written up on them, over at TAM, have the balls to come in, speak their peace and move on from there. Why bother you ask??? Because they are in business, they make income from what they sell and how they treat people, before and after the sell. They CARE about people coming back and they dare not see something written about them that's just not true. Your baby whinning about TAM is a pile that's just stinky. You not doing that just shows, again, your thought process. How about from now on we BOTH stay the hell out of the talk and let people make up their own minds about who and who not to buy from. Reminder? Let me help. Mind your business and I'll mind mine but bring TAM into it and I'll just remind everyone of whats what.

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13390
http://www.angrymandrel.com/smfforum...pic,387.0.html

[JoeWokovich]

Originally Posted by pam

Do you have any idea how many glass beadmakers there are who have made the investment in a concentrator only to decide the one they purchased didn't meet their needs? Perhaps they need a larger one, or two or three chained together, to get the effect they want. Perhaps they could have only added another two or $300 to their initial purchase price and gotten one that would have worked perfectly in the beginning, rather than have to work with a machine that is not providing for their oxygen needs. Now, perhaps they will have to double their cost by adding a second machine, or even a third. Our purchase of such an important and somewhat costly piece of equipment does not need to be a matter of guesswork. With technical data we can then evaluate for ourselves what we need for our work.

I KNOW that all glass venues have learning cycles, I've been in this for seven years and still wonder what the h@!! happened when my schedules don't prove true. Making solid decisions on what to purchase and then finding out you should have got the next bigger one in concentrators is no different than buying a kiln for $1800 using it one or two times and then regretting not getting a bigger one. As far as who needs info the most, well anyone that thinks they have all of the answers is in for a rude awakening when an annealing cycle fails and you see weeks of work laying in pieces to be cut up and used for something else.

[/i]I admitted to being the new kid on the block. [/i]I only have a little torch compared to yours. It doesn't mean that I'm more likely to go buy some undersized piece of crap just because I was too lazy to try and find out what the different oxycons are capable of.


quote "And I guess my point was when asking what torch Renee was going to run was that if she is running a smaller bead torch like a Piranha, Minor, Minnow, Bobcat, etc., she would do just as well with a single 5 LPM concentrator ($375) as she would with an M-15/EX-15 if the purity of the M-15/EX-15 (on sale for $500?) was only good at 5-6 LPM. " end quote

I probably learned more in this one statement than reading all of the other stuff. And I don't even know who posted it, but many thanks for the straight talk. At least that made me aware of all of the different sizes that I can grow into.

By the way, I still look at that post as being a put down to people of little experience. So I'll read along and learn what I can and when I have anything that is worthwhile, I'll post it. But being new to this, well........it might be awhile.

No, I don't have my drawers in a snit and no I'm not being pouty, I reserve that for the experts.

Joe

[kbinkster]

quote "And I guess my point was when asking what torch Renee was going to run was that if she is running a smaller bead torch like a Piranha, Minor, Minnow, Bobcat, etc., she would do just as well with a single 5 LPM concentrator ($375) as she would with an M-15/EX-15 if the purity of the M-15/EX-15 (on sale for $500?) was only good at 5-6 LPM. " end quote

I probably learned more in this one statement than reading all of the other stuff. And I don't even know who posted it, but many thanks for the straight talk. At least that made me aware of all of the different sizes that I can grow into.

I wrote that post. You're welcome and thank you for your kind words.

[mtnlaurel]

Well- I am still reading on. That statement helped me too as I was under the impression that the bigger the better. At that time I didn't know to factor in the "purity". As a matter of fact, I didn't realize it even existed. thanks!

If you go back to the beginning of this thread, it started out well. It made sence until Dennis came in (post #9). I was following it until he started getting "defensive".

I want to say thanks to all who have tried to help, and to Pam-apology accepted!

Is there a thread that shows who sells what oxycon?

Got to get back to the show to finish setting up! Have a great weekend- Renee

[Blueflameart]

Great post Joe. It's hard to get really good info when so many that sell these machines start going back and forth and all you do is wade thur things that you don't have a clue about. As you can see there are many units to spend you money on and making that decision has to come from reading others comments, both the good and bad.

I for one have bought 2 Invacare 5lpm machines and they've lasted for the 5 years I've been doing beads. The progression was as follows. 1 5lpm machine on a nortel minor ... did great but needed more heat ... 2 5lpm machines on a Bethleham Piranha .... did awesome compared to the first set up but still needed more umph! Bought a GTT lynx and hooked up the same 2 5lpm machines and what a difference ... just in the torch alone ... now I can do soft and borosilicate but still lacked the heat I was looking for.

This is the main point of reading and sticking around to see the results of whats going on right now. I "think" my perfect set up will be the GTT Phantom (4 stud) using a Regalia (10 lpm) on the inner fire and using tanked oxy for the outer flame with the oxy tied into a foot pedal. I'm more on the sculptural side of things so heat heat and a little more heat is needed but being able to control the heat is important.

GL with whatever and whoever you decide to buy from. Make sure they've got a good track record and something can be done fast if the machine you do buy goes down.

[JoeWokovich]

Many thanks to Kim and Chad for the answers. Amazing it took so long to get to the bottom line. These answers are what I needed, what works with what and what a basic startup is for a minor burner. Like I said, I'm the new kid on the block. I didn't know what to look for and now I do.

I really hate to ask this, but the discussion made me curious. Are the oxycons that are used in home health the same as the ones used for torches? I didn't know anything about these machines being capable of different purity levels, but it sure makes sense that they won't have the same level as tanked oxy. This is just a simple yes or no answer, please.

Pam, I took the answer to Renee's question as being addressed to anyone new in this field of glass. The insinuation that beginners are all uninformed and look only for the easy answer is an insult. Broad generalizations are tacky.

I've gave my .02 worth on this topic. Thank you. Apology accepted.
:biggrin

Joe

[kbinkster]

Yes, some of them were formerly in medical service.

If you have a home health care type concentrator, you could use it for lampworking. Just be aware that they have alarms installed for when flow is disrupted, so you cannot shut the oxygen off at the torch while the machine is still running.

The purity issues come in from different factors. Most of the medical ones are similar in output when new, but not necessarily when used, and not necessarily by brand. I won't go into it, since you only wanted a "yes" or "no" and I already answered more than that.

[JoeWokovich]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

Yes, some of them were formerly in medical service.

If you have a home health ....................................
The purity issues come in from different factors. Most of the medical ones are similar in output when new, but not necessarily when used, and not necessarily by brand. I won't go into it, since you only wanted a "yes" or "no" and I already answered more than that.

Hi Kim,
Thanks for the note. My reason for asking is that we had a neighbor who was on O2 for about 3 months before he passed away. I think that that machine is still sitting in his basement. I thought that I might see if the family would sell it to me but wanted to be sure that the 5lpm was the correct rate.

Joe

[Hayley]

Joe - 5 lpm machines are not all created equal. Find out from what brand and how many psi your neighbor's machine is . . . you can always start a thread here to find out more. You may have to have it serviced too . . . I would go for a 5 lpm / 8-9 psi one but not one that is only 5 psi.

When you use a machine like that, you need to crack your oxygen knob so that it doesn't back flow and cause an alarm to sound. Problem I have it that I am so used to cracking my oxygen know . . . when I go and torch with friends who have tanked oxygen, I forget to shut the oxygen at the torch off completely all the time!!! oops!

[kbinkster]

Joe, most of the medical concentrators are 5 LPM at 5-6 psi. One brand, DeVilbiss, puts out 8.5 psi. The SeQual units put out 7-9 psi. For a Minor Burner, you could use either the lower or higher psi models and do just fine, but I think the higher psi DeVilbiss gives you a little more flexibility. Do you think they might let you try it to see if it would work for you before you committed to buying it?

And Hayley, that is a big oops!

[kbinkster]

Oh, btw, 5 LPM would be good for soft glass beads. If you want to go bigger or hotter, then I would suggest adding a second unit.

[ditfd]

Uh, Dennis, I don't know where you get this, but I totally disagree. I care immensely about lpm, psi, purity, etc. from the oxycons as well as what each torch needs. I'm sick of buying these machines based on pure say-so both from the side of the oxycon manufacturers, and the side of the torch manufacturers. These numbers should be easily available so that the consumer can make an informed decision.

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

I think people buying a concentrator don't care as much about lpm, psi, or mph as they do about whether or not it'll provide enough oxy to run their torches.

Patti

[ditfd]

Joe: I used an Alliance oxycon unaltered, used, from a medical supply place for 5 or 6 years, no problems. Paid $150 for it. So far, it has been the one that's had the best track record for me, so if you can get one from your neighbor's basement, that sounds like a deal to me. I run a minor, about 6-8 hours a day, soft glass, humid environment in the summer. That machine was a 5 lpm machine.

I don't have any "real" numbers for it all, though. See? This is why I can't wait for the day when every torch comes with an operating range, and every oxycon comes with lpm, psi, and what purity at which settings. Wouldn't that be awesome.

Patti

[sarbeardog]

I'm going to stick my neck in here. Scared to cause you never know what could happen~
I'm trying to understand LPM and Purity with concentrators. How are they related? Does tanked oxy usually come with 100% purity?
Let say you have 8LPM but the purity is say 79%. What is happening with the torch? Is it not working? Does the purity have to do with the glass colors. Is the purity important with Boro only? I just can't seem to wrap my head around this issue for me to better understand how a concentrator works. It may be simple but I'm very stuck on this issue.
So any non-bias information would be helpful for me.
Thanks
Kathy

[JoeWokovich]

That is just a report on the numbers read by an analyzer. Now, if I say that that machine is advertised as putting out 8 LPM at 15 psi with 90% purity, then that puts it into the proper framework and gives those numbers some meaning. That does not make it a biased statement, though.

QUOTE]


Kim, how expensive is the analyzer you use? Is it difficult to hook up? Is it a bulky item? I really like the idea of testing units in the field where they reside. If the price of one is not too far out, I was thinking that purchasing an analyzer and then sending it to whoever would want to be involved might be interesting. That way a data base could be built on many brands, models, years of age, pressures, flow rates, local conditions (humidity, dust)...etc. Then when someone asks for recommendations this info could be offered as a guide and the person could still make up their own mind, but have a little more insight to machines.

That's what happens after being a field engineer for 39 years.
I'm still waiting for the neighbor to come back home to check on the oxycon that her husband had.

Joe

[ditfd]

Hey Kathy, hopefully Kimberly will jump back in, but here's my understanding:

1.) You buy an oxycon that is "rated"/advertised to work at a particular lpm and psi. The assumption is that the purity is 90% or better at that point, but how do you really know unless you test your particular machine in your particular setting?

2.) You can't really tell that the purity of the O2 at that particular lpm and psi is not at 90%, except from the type of flame you may be getting at the torch. That's where it'll be nice to have these measurements that Kimberly has been taking.

3.) Doesn't matter if it's for soft glass or for boro. For example, I work in soft glass, but there are some colors that are particularly sensitive to oxygen -- they need more of it to come out nicely. Rubino oro and opaque turquoises for example need a good oxygen purity in the soft glass.

4.) It's a question of "Are you getting what you are paying for?" If you spend a lot of money on a "big" machine such as one that's advertised to put out 8 lpm and 15 psi, but it doesn't hit the oxygen purity level at that setting, why spend the money? You could spend half and get a machine that puts out 5 lpm and 8 psi with an adequate oxygen purity. Or for the same money approximately, you could piggy back two 5 lpm machines, and get the adequate purity.

5.) The other question is one of longevity, and this is where I've had a great deal of trouble with a particular oxycon manufacturer. Under normal circumstances of these machines running 24/7, which they're designed to do in their original use, they should last a good 5 years, providing you do the required maintenance of cleaning the filters regularly. So some of the oxycon manufacturers are rebuilding used machines and sooping them up to give us more oomphf. But many of these machines have not been in the field long enough to know whether or not they will have the expected longevity.

6.) You also have to weigh other factors, such as humidity and altitude, and the way in which you work. For example, I have a mid-minor. 97% of the time, I'm on the minor, and I'm on the mid only 3% of the time. Do I really need a big machine for that 3%, or would I be better off getting two smalls, and turning on the second one only when I know I'm gonna need it?

It's all a lot to weigh. And it's been difficult up til now to get actual numerical data that would help folks make an informed decision. (I have yet to get Nortel torch data, even though I've asked Nortel at least twice, for example.) Kimberly has been most helpful in this, although because she's a vendor of oxycons, other vendors of oxycons are making accusations that her numbers are doctored to come out in her favor. However, those oxycon vendors making that accusation, have not been forthcoming with any numbers whatsoever, except for the original numbers they advertise. They have not gone out and tested machines in the field and then reported back, as Kimberly has done.

Patti