Oxy concentrator question

[mtnlaurel]

I am looking into buying a concentrator- I like the M-15 model and I noticed two dealers have them on sale in the sales section. Heritage and ABR. Does anyone know if one is any better than the other? The only difference I can see is Heritage has a nozzle that looks like metal and the other looks plastic. Any suggestions would be helpful. I am on a tight budget and want to do this only once Thanks! Renee

[Beckah]

It sounds like one picture has the protective plastic over the metal and the other picture took the shipping plastic off. All the Unlimited Oxygen units come from here http://www.unlimitedoxygen.com/ and are sold by a variety of glass shops and other vendors -- including Arrowsprings & Mr. Smiley/Brent here on LE.

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by Beckah

It sounds like one picture has the protective plastic over the metal and the other picture took the shipping plastic off. All the Unlimited Oxygen units come from here http://www.unlimitedoxygen.com/ and are sold by a variety of glass shops and other vendors -- including Arrowsprings & Mr. Smiley/Brent here on LE.

Different sales agents but all same product.

[Beckah]

I did a brief look at the Heritage Glass sales thread and it looks like she's actually selling EX-15's rather than M-15's. I admit I didn't thoroughly look at what was being offered so maybe she has both.

Here's a recent post that clarifies the various players in the oxycon world http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...86&postcount=9 You'll see that the EX is a brother-company to Unlimited Oxygen.

This is a recent thread http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=92881 that has some discussion about Unlimited Oxygen (the M-15) and the new company that the brother formed that puts out the EX.

[mtnlaurel]

Originally Posted by Beckah

I did a brief look at the Heritage Glass sales thread and it looks like she's actually selling EX-15's rather than M-15's. I admit I didn't thoroughly look at what was being offered so maybe she has both.

Here's a recent post that clarifies the various players in the oxycon world http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...86&postcount=9 You'll see that the EX is a brother-company to Unlimited Oxygen.

This is a recent thread http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=92881 that has some discussion about Unlimited Oxygen (the M-15) and the new company that the brother formed that puts out the EX.

Thanks for the feedback! Are you saying that the M15 and EX15 are the same machine? I also read thru the other link you sent and that got really interesting although I have to say I am more confused than ever.

I am simply looking for a good oxy con (M15) for under 600 that is dependable and a reputable dealer to sell it to me that I can depend on if things go wrong- so if anyone has any recommendations, I would appreciate it.

[kbinkster]

Renee, I'm sorry that the other thread got so confusing. I think that that was the intent of some of the participants because they did not like the data that was being presented.

You say that you are looking for a dependable concentrator. The point of my research is to find out just how reliable various concentrators are for our purpose - out in the field, under real-world conditions. I am testing all brands - I'm not singling anyone out.

As for the M-15 and the EX-15, they are basically the same thing. I have test results for one M-15 and two EX-15s, as well as test results for their predecessor, the M-20. I would like to test more of these machines, but so far, the machines that I sampled do not put out good purity at the LPM they are rated for. In other words, at 8 LPM, you do not get good purity and you have to lower the LPM down considerably in order to get good purity. What torch are you looking to run with a concentrator? It might be that you would do just as well to have a 5 LPM machine (non-tweaked) at a lower cost.

Many people have been led to believe that more pressure (psi) equals more heat. On a concentrator, this is not necessarily true! Flow (LPM) and purity are more important factors, because that is the actual amount of oxygen that goes into combustion. All pressure does is push it into the torch. Most torches do not have enough restrictions in them to require a high psi to deliver the oxygen.

Now, on a tank situation, you have to set a high psi on the regulator in order to get more flow out of the tank, and that is why higher psi equals more heat (or more accuratly, more heat attainable). But, on a concentrator, you set the upper limit of the flow yourself and the pressure is pre-set. So, for most bead torches, you can have low pressure and still get a lot of heat as long as you have good flow at good purity.

High flow at low purity is not good. Poor purity produces a cooler, reductive flame.

So, basically, a machine called an 8 LPM machine is not really an 8 LPM machine if you have to crank it down to 5-6 LPM in order to get good purity. And, even at 5 LPM, it depends on the torch as to whether or not high psi is better than a little lower psi.

[Hayley]

Renee,

Most importantly, what torch do you have? I purchased my two M-15s with Brent/Mr. Smiley and love them! When I only need to use the inner fire of my Barracuda (essentially a Piranha), I only need one M-15. So if you have a similar or smaller torch than a Piranha, you will do great with a M-15.

Brent is excellent to deal with and Jack from Unlimited Oxygen is great too!

[kbinkster]

And I guess my point was when asking what torch Renee was going to run was that if she is running a smaller bead torch like a Piranha, Minor, Minnow, Bobcat, etc., she would do just as well with a single 5 LPM concentrator ($375) as she would with an M-15/EX-15 if the purity of the M-15/EX-15 (on sale for $500?) was only good at 5-6 LPM.

If the purity of the M-15/EX-15 were good at 8 LPM, and it was reliable machine that would last (putting out good purity and flow for the long term), then, getting one of those units would be a good choice. I have heard both good reports and bad reports on the reliability (performance and longevity) of those machines, though.

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

And I guess my point was when asking what torch Renee was going to run was that if she is running a smaller bead torch like a Piranha, Minor, Minnow, Bobcat, etc., she would do just as well with a single 5 LPM concentrator ($375) as she would with an M-15/EX-15 if the purity of the M-15/EX-15 (on sale for $500?) was only good at 5-6 LPM.

If the purity of the M-15/EX-15 were good at 8 LPM, and it was reliable machine that would last (putting out good purity and flow for the long term), then, getting one of those units would be a good choice. I have heard both good reports and bad reports on the reliability (performance and longevity) of those machines, though.

Your post clearly implies the UO & EO macines are unreliable and that their 15 lpm machines are incapable of producing the supplier advertised volumes. Is it your assertion that their 5 lpm machines are more likely to provide the advertised volumes then the 15's?

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

Your post clearly implies the UO & EO macines are unreliable and that their 15 lpm machines are incapable of producing the supplier advertised volumes. Is it your assertion that their 5 lpm machines are more likely to provide the advertised volumes then the 15's?

Dennis, I will ask you to not put words in my mouth.

My post clearly states that I have heard both good and bad reports regarding the reliability of those machines.

The test results of the units that were sampled with my analyzer (two EX-15s, one M-15, and one M-20) showed that the machines that were tested did not produce the advertised purity at the rated flow. And just what is/was the advertised purity and rated flow? Well, it used to be 95% purity at 8 LPM for UO's M-15. Now, it is 90% (+/- 3% for altitude variance) at 8 LPM.

Here is the result of the M-15 I tested:

Flow Rate set on machine: 8 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 5.6 – 6.0 LPM (little lower than expected for this altitude)
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 82.6 – 87.2%
Pressure: 13.6 – 14.5

The machine was set at 8 LPM, and the 82.6% purity was less than even the currently advertised 90% (+/- 3% for altitude variance). The machine is about a year old, so it may have been bought during the time the M-15 was advertised as having a flat 95% purity. Because of the altitude, I expected that the mass flow (what my machine measures) would be less than the volumetric flow (what the flow meter on the machine shows). However, this machine put out less mass flow than expected.

Here are the results of the two new EX-15s that the owner of the machines tested with my analyzer:

Machine A:
Flow Rate set on machine: 8 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 6.4 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 86.2 – 88%
Pressure: 13.9 – 14.0 psi

Machine B:
Flow Rate set on machine: 8 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 6.4 – 6.7 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 89.9 – 90.8%
Pressure: 15.0 – 15.1 psi

Now, the purity is close, but neither machine is putting out the rated 8 LPM at the 8 LPM mark. I expected the mass flow to be about the same as the volumetric flow because the machines were tested at near sea level conditions. So, the owner increased the flow of each machine until it was putting out 8 LPM and tested the purity, again.

Machine A:
Flow Rate set on machine: unreadable LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 8 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 76.0 – 81.1%
Pressure: 13.9 – 14.0 psi


Machine B:
Flow Rate set on machine: unreadable LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 8 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 77.1 – 82.3%
Pressure: 15.0 – 15.1 psi

At 8 LPM, what the machine is rated as, the purity was very poor on both machines.

The UO/EO machines in question, btw, are 15 psi machines, not 15 LPM machines.

I won't even go into how the M-20 rated.

But, like I said, I have heard reports of people having good experiences with their M-15s as well as bad experiences.

As for the 5 LPM machines being more or less reliable, I have not heard as many complaints from the ones that I have sold or those sold by my closest competitor, Oxygen Plus, as I have heard about the M-15s and EX-15s out there. I have heard complaints about 5 LPM machines that were purchased on the cheap, though. But, it is unlikely that those machines were thoroughly reconditioned like mine and Oxygen Plus's are. The main thrust of my research project is to find out just how reliable all the machines are.

EDIT: O.K., I re-red your post and had misunderstood part of your question, Dennis. You are asking what I think about the 5 LPM UO/EO machines.

As for how reliable the M-5 and M-10 are, both machines are tweaked to put out more pressure than the original manufacturer (Respironics) designed them to put out. Respironics designed the original machines to put out 5.25-5.5 psi (in that neighborhood). The M-10 is tweaked to put out 10 psi and the M-5 is tweaked to put out 7 psi. I would suspect that that tweaking business would cause problems either immediately or down the road.

Also, the base unit itself, the Millenium, has historically not been as good as other concentrators. Justin L posted a chart showing the longevity of non-tweaked machines, and the Respironics units just did not last as long as the others on the market.

Personally, I feel that a reconditioned DeVilbiss that put out 8.5-9 psi would by nature be a more reliable machine than a Respironics unit pushed to put out 7 psi or 10 psi.

BTW, Wally has an M-10 (the 5 LPM/10 psi UO unit) and two 5 LPM DeVilbiss units at the main shop. He said just the other day that the one DeVilbiss unit he tested on a torch outperformed the M-10. I will be sending him my analyzer to get hard numbers pretty soon.

[oxydoc]

Originally Posted by mtnlaurel

I am looking into buying a concentrator- I like the M-15 model and I noticed two dealers have them on sale in the sales section. Heritage and ABR. Does anyone know if one is any better than the other? The only difference I can see is Heritage has a nozzle that looks like metal and the other looks plastic. Any suggestions would be helpful. I am on a tight budget and want to do this only once Thanks! Renee

Hi Renee, unfortunately you probably wont get good information on this site. I would strongly suggest you ask around before making your decision. This is one more thead that will go wildly out of control. jack

[oxydoc]

Kimberly, get your facts straight!!! The M5 is NOT "tweaked" at all. The unit pressure is set by the manufacturer and not touched by us. We simply rebuild and offer them as a reliable base unit. The M10 is only "tweaked" up 3 psi. As for your "opinion" on the Respironics, here is mine, It is the best you can buy. It is the quietest running unit anywhere on the market. It has for fewer moving parts to break down. Do you have an M5? have you tested an M5? I thought this was a fact based thread aimed to HELP fellow lampworkers. It is a FREAKING shame people cannot come on this site and get honest and helpful answers to thier questions. You would have people believe that you are the only honest person alive. Everyone else are liars and cheats.

[ez2remember]

Just my $0.02....

I had two Airsep NewLife concentrators linked together and replaced them both with a ex-15. The ex-15 outperforms the 2 airseps combined.

edz

[Hayley]

Why can't someone ask a question on this forum and get answers from end USERS - someone who has NOTHING to gain by their opinions - instead of VENDORS! Sheesh!

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by oxydoc

Kimberly, get your facts straight!!! The M5 is NOT "tweaked" at all. The unit pressure is set by the manufacturer and not touched by us. We simply rebuild and offer them as a reliable base unit. The M10 is only "tweaked" up 3 psi.

I'm sorry, Jack. I was under the impression that the output pressure for the Respironics Millennium concentrator was 5.25-5.75 psi. Here is the response I received from Respironics when I asked quite some time ago:

The 10 ltr Millenium output pressure for the patient is actually only 5.25 to 5.75 psi. The 10 to 30 psi is the internal switching pressure that the compressor puts out. The oxygen percentage is 92 +/- 4% across the range of 1 to 10 liters.
Product support



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Comments
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:20 AM
To: Service
Subject: FW: Contact Us - Information Request

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: contactus@respironics.com [mailto:contactus@respironics.com]
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:05 AM
To: Comments; support@vtgp.com; cusedkny@hotmail.com
Subject: Contact Us - Information Request



I thought that the M-5 was supposed to put out 7 psi. If I was under the impression that 7 psi is a higher psi than what the machine should be putting out, then the email I received from Respironics is why.

Originally Posted by oxydoc

As for your "opinion" on the Respironics, here is mine, It is the best you can buy. It is the quietest running unit anywhere on the market. It has for fewer moving parts to break down.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

Why is it, then, that Justin and Larry of Oxygen Plus, who have many years in the business of repairing concentrators, say that the Respironics units (the untweaked, original units) only last 8,000 to 12,000 hours on average before failing and other machines on the market last about twice as long before failing?

Originally Posted by oxydoc

Do you have an M5? have you tested an M5? I thought this was a fact based thread aimed to HELP fellow lampworkers.

No, I do not have an M-5, that I know of. These units have changed names so many times... who knows what anyone has half the time. The 5 LPM UO/SCC unit Wally has is, I believe, an M-10. I will be happy to post the results of any M-5 that I test.

Originally Posted by oxydoc

It is a FREAKING shame people cannot come on this site and get honest and helpful answers to thier questions. You would have people believe that you are the only honest person alive. Everyone else are liars and cheats.

Jack, I am straightforward and honest. When I have an opinion, I state it as such. When I present facts, I am very careful and check my sources before presenting anything. The whole point of my analyzer project is to get facts - facts that can be represented with numbers.

It is a shame that I cannot present factual information without the same cast of characters coming in and starting a fight with me every time and derailing the thread to the point that the facts are buried in pages and pages of fighting. That is a real shame and it is certainly doing no service to the lampworking community.

As far as calling other people liars and cheats, well... I believe that it was YOU who called me a liar in that other thread until I presented the documentation that showed your assertions to be wholly untrue (you remember the ones, where you said that GTT was never offered a distributorship and that they never paid for the units they have and I presented not only the distributor letter and pricelist, but also the cancelled check for the units with your signature).

And, here we are again with you decrying that I should get my facts straight regarding the pressure output of the base unit you use for the M-5 and M-10.

When you said that "It is a FREAKING shame people cannot come on this site and get honest and helpful answers to thier questions," were you calling me a liar, again, and implying that my input is not helpful? Nice.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Hayley

Why can't someone ask a question on this forum and get answers from end USERS - someone who has NOTHING to gain by their opinions - instead of VENDORS! Sheesh!

We do get answers from end-users. In fact, I was an end-user of a few machines and posted my experiences with them long before I was ever a vendor. My opinion of those machines did not change just because I became a vendor.

Also, I have NEVER heard of any other end-users, before me, going out and purchasing an oxygen analyzer to test machines and give objective data. I am trying to post factual information to benefit our community.

[kbinkster]

Oh, just a quick note about the Respironics Millennium 5, 5 LPM concentrator... Respironics discontinued it July 31, 2007 and replaced it with their EverFlo concentrator. It has an outlet pressure of 5.5 psi.

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by mtnlaurel

Thanks for the feedback! Are you saying that the M15 and EX15 are the same machine? I also read thru the other link you sent and that got really interesting although I have to say I am more confused than ever.

I am simply looking for a good oxy con (M15) for under 600 that is dependable and a reputable dealer to sell it to me that I can depend on if things go wrong- so if anyone has any recommendations, I would appreciate it.

Renee,

Sorry this thread took a turn as all oxycon threads do! I hope you will check back here (can't blame you if you don't tho!). I think that you can't beat the sale price at ABR! Wow! I paid a lot more for my M-15s. You will love it!

Here is a recent thread from happy customers using M-15s:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=95553

Happy torching!

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by Hayley

Why can't someone ask a question on this forum and get answers from end USERS - someone who has NOTHING to gain by their opinions - instead of VENDORS! Sheesh!

There's a huge difference between a vendor promoting the machine they sell and a vendor slagging the machine their competitor sells. The first is good business. The second is poor taste and efficiently removes the possibility of their opinions having any credibility.

[Blueflameart]

LOL Dennis ... reread the thread .. bad taste? Your all over it. The threads only go sideways when a couple others beat someone up for posting facts, facts that she did the research on. Kim would be the first to post saying sorry if she was told something else. All I see is a couple distributors getting their panties in a wad over some REAL info coming out. Your right ... these oxy threads do go sideways ... do yourself a favor and go re-read em ... same people make em go sideways every time. From everything written on the internet these machines do great then fail for one reason or another. Yes! you do have some that are very happy on these machines and they do just what they want ... More and more people coming out of the woodwork NOT praising the machines. I think after all the info is put together we will all really know why. You don't, I don't hell, Kim doesn't ... something tells me we will soon.

I don't slam one from the other ... I don't know these machines and would love to see each of the vendors step up and post findings, purity , flow .. all that good stuff so WE could make good decisions ... far as the threads going sideways ... that's only a couple people's faults. You and others can claim Kim this and claim Kim that ... Kim had the balls to FIND the info, do some research and post what her findings where ... some gave some great advice on NOT using older machines and other things that will help get the info straight but from you and a couple others, well, you know as well as I know what it boils down too ... shipping that machine! Back off and let everyone test and post results and stop crying about Kim coming here making others look bad ... "most" do that on their own and need 0 help.

[Mr. Smiley]

Originally Posted by Blueflameart

LOL Dennis ... reread the thread .. bad taste? Your all over it. The threads only go sideways when a couple others beat someone up for posting facts, facts that she did the research on. Kim would be the first to post saying sorry if she was told something else. All I see is a couple distributors getting their panties in a wad over some REAL info coming out. Your right ... these oxy threads do go sideways ... do yourself a favor and go re-read em ... same people make em go sideways every time. From everything written on the internet these machines do great then fail for one reason or another. Yes! you do have some that are very happy on these machines and they do just what they want ... More and more people coming out of the woodwork NOT praising the machines. I think after all the info is put together we will all really know why. You don't, I don't hell, Kim doesn't ... something tells me we will soon.

I don't slam one from the other ... I don't know these machines and would love to see each of the vendors step up and post findings, purity , flow .. all that good stuff so WE could make good decisions ... far as the threads going sideways ... that's only a couple people's faults. You and others can claim Kim this and claim Kim that ... Kim had the balls to FIND the info, do some research and post what her findings where ... some gave some great advice on NOT using older machines and other things that will help get the info straight but from you and a couple others, well, you know as well as I know what it boils down too ... shipping that machine! Back off and let everyone test and post results and stop crying about Kim coming here making others look bad ... "most" do that on their own and need 0 help.

Huh? Kim's got balls?

[Blueflameart]

Hahaha, well yeah , you got me there ... I even had to kinda scratch my head after I posted but yeah, in a way, she does!

[oxydoc]

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

Why is it, then, that Justin and Larry of Oxygen Plus, who have many years in the business of repairing concentrators, say that the Respironics units (the untweaked, original units) only last 8,000 to 12,000 hours on average before failing and other machines on the market last about twice as long before failing?

My last point to contributors of conflicting info: Oxygen Plus also sells Respironics Millenniums on thier web site. They are one of the most expensive on the site with the same 5 year warranty. These machines are designed to run 24/7. So, 24 hours a day x 365 days a year equals 8760 hours per year. oops, x 5 years for the warranty equals 43,800 hours. Wow. Thats a pretty good vote of confidence. Those units are also refurbished. So who knows how many hours they start out with at the time of the rebuild. I dont know what the remark about Respironics discontinuing the Millennium in 2007. Does that fact degrade the unit somehow? It only proves that some companies do make changes to meet the needs of the customers.

[Good Ol' Boy]

I spoke to 02+ over a month ago about this very same subject. They have never sold one of the Millenium machines to a glass artist and they discontinued selling these units in general. He explained they were poorly built and fail between 8 to 12 K hours. He also explained that the NEW sieve material that UO & EO are using to modify the oxygen output of their tweeked machine was not made to withstand the pressures that they are overdriving their machines at because the sieve material is not being used at pressures consistent with manufacturers operating specifications.
From what I have read by UO customers on Angry websites they carry another prospective on there so called customer service.
I see distributors now having PRICE WARS just to dump these machines from there inventory much like rats jumping ship ???
Brothers who are fighting for business and money starting up different companies. Distributors who refuse to sell the larger generators due to continuing problems. Larry also refused to sell millenium machines to Jack Ridgeway who was frantic when he called oxygenplus to buy equipment.
Service centers everywhere have cut UO off from buying equipment and that is why he cannot keep up with sales and has a 3-6 week back order.
Larry said he would not sell this equipment to him.
You get what you pay for larry said LOL

I'm Go'in Fishin

Originally Posted by oxydoc

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

Why is it, then, that Justin and Larry of Oxygen Plus, who have many years in the business of repairing concentrators, say that the Respironics units (the untweaked, original units) only last 8,000 to 12,000 hours on average before failing and other machines on the market last about twice as long before failing?

My last point to contributors of conflicting info: Oxygen Plus also sells Respironics Millenniums on thier web site. They are one of the most expensive on the site with the same 5 year warranty. These machines are designed to run 24/7. So, 24 hours a day x 365 days a year equals 8760 hours per year. oops, x 5 years for the warranty equals 43,800 hours. Wow. Thats a pretty good vote of confidence. Those units are also refurbished. So who knows how many hours they start out with at the time of the rebuild. I dont know what the remark about Respironics discontinuing the Millennium in 2007. Does that fact degrade the unit somehow? It only proves that some companies do make changes to meet the needs of the customers.

[Lizabeads]

Very well said Good Ol' Boy.

I want to see the studies that Jack, Dennis, Brent and Haley have done. You have had plenty of time since the last little spat to order the same equipment Kimberly has and put it to good use testing. Why don't ya'll put your money where your mouth is and do some scientific, real, unbiased studies of your own? Just so you know, I haven't bought an OC from anyone here. I get mine free. But having been in the medical field I know that the study Kimberly is doing is done by some manufacturers as a quality control measure before they are shipped out by the manufacturer.
Mtnlaurel/Renee, before you make a decision and spend your hard earned money I suggest you visit another site and read some of the comments/problems others have had. This site allows the poster to say "exactly" what is going on and the poster can be anonymous. www.angrymandrel.com More than one person has posted about their feelings. Be an aware consumer and make your own decision.
Shame on ya'll for even suggesting that Kimberly made a thread go down hill. Reread it and do so with an open mind and honesty if you can, and you will see exactly when it started going downhill. It sure wasn't Kimberly.

Now as some point soon I will be needing a new OC so I would like to see some real studies, facts, data on different OC's. Get to work guys and lets see your results!!

[oxydoc]

[quote=Lizabeads;1955710]Very well said Good Ol' Boy.

I want to see the studies that Jack, Dennis, Brent and Haley have done. You have had plenty of time since the last little spat to order the same equipment Kimberly has and put it to good use testing. Why don't ya'll put your money where your mouth is and do some scientific, real, unbiased studies of your own? Just so you know, I haven't bought an OC from anyone here. I get mine free. But having been in the medical field I know that the study Kimberly is doing is done by some manufacturers as a quality control measure before they are shipped out by the manufacturer.
Mtnlaurel/Renee, before you make a decision and spend your hard earned money I suggest you visit another site and read some of the comments/problems others have had. This site allows the poster to say "exactly" what is going on and the poster can be anonymous. www.angrymandrel.com More than one person has posted about their feelings. Be an aware consumer and make your own decision.
Shame on ya'll for even suggesting that Kimberly made a thread go down hill. Reread it and do so with an open mind and honesty if you can, and you will see exactly when it started going downhill. It sure wasn't Kimberly.

Now as some point soon I will be needing a new OC so I would like to see some real studies, facts, data on different OC's. Get to work guys and lets see your results!![/Q


I do own seversl of the O2 analyzers. I could'nt possibly even do my job without one. I have 3 techs building my machines and each one of them has an analyzer, a pressure guage and a labratory flow meter. I have been using these items for 10 years. I do post my specs on my website and on every piece of info that goes out with my machines. I have no problem with what Kimberly is doing. It is the hearsay and misinformation that I have to speak up about. Just like the perfect example that "GOOD OLE BOY" gave us in his incredable statement about the grade of Molecular Sieve I use. How in the hell could he possibly know what I use in my machines. Statements like that and so many others like "price wars" Brothers fighting" "I heard some say" "I read on another Angry Site" always seem to follow these post and tests. That is the reason I feel I have to set the record straight. That is the only time I even post in any forum. Keep the info factual. All the sharp little barbed wire comments dont even have a place here. It does make the information look less credible like Haley said earlier. I think It would be much more credible if someone besides competing companies did the testing. If someone who has nothing to gain by posting the info. Kimberly, in reply to your earlier post, I am not calling you a liar. I am a professional and I have remained that way throughout all of these forums. I dont even think you have an agenda. I use to feel that way, but after reading reading a lot of your old posts, I really dont feel that way now. I am sorry if you feel I was calling you a liar. Like I said the last time, I try to keep these threads professional. jack

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by Lizabeads

Very well said Good Ol' Boy.

I want to see the studies that Jack, Dennis, Brent and Hayley have done. You have had plenty of time since the last little spat to order the same equipment Kimberly has and put it to good use testing. Why don't ya'll put your money where your mouth is and do some scientific, real, unbiased studies of your own? Just so you know, I haven't bought an OC from anyone here. I get mine free. But having been in the medical field I know that the study Kimberly is doing is done by some manufacturers as a quality control measure before they are shipped out by the manufacturer.
Mtnlaurel/Renee, before you make a decision and spend your hard earned money I suggest you visit another site and read some of the comments/problems others have had. This site allows the poster to say "exactly" what is going on and the poster can be anonymous. www.angrymandrel.com More than one person has posted about their feelings. Be an aware consumer and make your own decision.
Shame on ya'll for even suggesting that Kimberly made a thread go down hill. Reread it and do so with an open mind and honesty if you can, and you will see exactly when it started going downhill. It sure wasn't Kimberly.

Now as some point soon I will be needing a new OC so I would like to see some real studies, facts, data on different OC's. Get to work guys and lets see your results!!

Liza,

I am a consumer, end user and a beadmaker like you and NOT a vendor or manufacture like Kimberly, Brent, Dennis, or Jack. I do NOT do any studies except turn on my M-15s and make beads and glass pieces with my Barracuda. I have NOTHING to gain by posting my opinions, comments or experiences. I hope you get your facts straight before you start accusing someone.

[Dennis Brady]

I suggest you visit another site and read some of the comments/problems others have had. This site allows the poster to say "exactly" what is going on and the poster can be anonymous. www.angrymandrel.com More than one person has posted about their feelings. Be an aware consumer and make your own decision.

I heartily agree that if you want to slag someone's integrity or product, TAM is definitely the most appropriate place.

[dogmaw]

Originally Posted by oxydoc

I do own seversl of the O2 analyzers. I could'nt possibly even do my job without one. I have 3 techs building my machines and each one of them has an analyzer, a pressure guage and a labratory flow meter. I have been using these items for 10 years. I do post my specs on my website and on every piece of info that goes out with my machines. I have no problem with what Kimberly is doing. It is the hearsay and misinformation that I have to speak up about. Just like the perfect example that "GOOD OLE BOY" gave us in his incredable statement about the grade of Molecular Sieve I use. How in the hell could he possibly know what I use in my machines. Statements like that and so many others like "price wars" Brothers fighting" "I heard some say" "I read on another Angry Site" always seem to follow these post and tests. That is the reason I feel I have to set the record straight. That is the only time I even post in any forum. Keep the info factual. All the sharp little barbed wire comments dont even have a place here. It does make the information look less credible like Haley said earlier. I think It would be much more credible if someone besides competing companies did the testing. If someone who has nothing to gain by posting the info. Kimberly, in reply to your earlier post, I am not calling you a liar. I am a professional and I have remained that way throughout all of these forums. I dont even think you have an agenda. I use to feel that way, but after reading reading a lot of your old posts, I really dont feel that way now. I am sorry if you feel I was calling you a liar. Like I said the last time, I try to keep these threads professional. jack

Jack, I'd love to see your raw data. Is there a chance I can get the following info from you?

machine number
date tested
oxy purity
lpm
psi
number of hours the machine has been used

That way I can look at all of your machines, find an average and a standard deviation that would give a good description of your product. Having this kind of information would help consumers make realistic choices with their money.

[oxydoc]

Hey jo, like I said, we test every single machine I sell. Our standards for the
M15 are as follows: 13 to 15 psig, 7 to 8 lpm flow and purity no less than 90% at 8lpm, no less than 92 to 94% at 5lpm and less. The standards for the M10 is no less than 90 to 92% at 5lpm, 92 to 94% at anything less 5lpm, 9 to 10 psig. The standards for the M5 is 6 to 7 psig, 5lpm flow and 92 to 94% purity. The standards for the Hurricane are 18 to 20 psig, 13 to 15 lpm and purity no less than 90%. The standards for the O2 Booster are 13 to 15 psig 7 to 10 lpms with purity around 94%. This information is included in our company info and all my employees are very aware of my expectations. Anyone who is not a competetor of mine is welcome to come to my shop and observe what we do. I will even provide motel and good restaurants. jack
I forgot to mention that every machine we build has a build sheet with all test results documented.