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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions. |
2010-01-15, 4:37pm
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Astro Cat
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2008
Posts: 658
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physics of implosions
I was wondering if anyone could explain the physics of the implosion? I'd appreciate feedback on both varieties (made from hollow rod vs solid). I had a class last weekend and saw both done and did make one with the solid rod that is so-so. I have also tried it a few times in soft glass with a basic rod of clear with varying amounts of success. I realize it take a lot more practice than I have but I'm curious as to the physics to help me understand it better. I can't help it, I'm a scientist LOL!
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2010-01-15, 7:07pm
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Marbles, dude, Marbles
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Join Date: Jan 06, 2007
Location: Coral Springs, Florida
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I've spent many happy hours thinking about this. Really...
I've thought that whenever a mixture gets heated up enough it begins to flow around in the container that's holding it. I figure it flows around because the entire mixture (ok-glass rod) doesn't get heated up evenly. So, say you make a thick maria and put 3 colored dots on it -like if you were laying down stamens. Implode them a little and then put a dot of clear over each colored dot. Implode the clear dots. Put colored dots over the clear dots. Implode them and then cover them with clear etc. making a . . . . . . .
dotted line in your marble. Now you can see how the glass flowed. I'd say the glass flows from the edge of the maria to the center of the maria and then up into the maria in a circular flow.
Now, this is the good part. You can control how far the dot will move, like you could do a flower implosion with the flower in the lower part of the marble (where it gets magnified real well) or in the upper part of the marble.
Well, this is the way I think it works, but I don't know this for a fact, so don't hesitate to chime in.
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A marble a day keeps the 'willies' away.
Gerald Kappel
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2010-01-15, 8:26pm
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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The physics are pretty simple. Colored glass is stiffer than clear glass, so the clear gets softer quicker than the color. That's why it implodes.
That's also the reason it's harder to do in soft glass - soft glass clear is stiff, solid colors are softer.
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2010-01-15, 8:43pm
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Never give up
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Join Date: Dec 22, 2007
Location: Nashville , IN 47448
Posts: 949
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I know all about how hard it is with soft glass. I have made plenty of them some look good others not so good. Now that I understand how it was works. It got me thinking, what would happen if I encased the solid colors with clear. Thanks for the idea. Will just have to try it.
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Kim
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2010-01-15, 9:31pm
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakelady
I know all about how hard it is with soft glass. I have made plenty of them some look good others not so good. Now that I understand how it was works. It got me thinking, what would happen if I encased the solid colors with clear. Thanks for the idea. Will just have to try it.
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I'm not sure. I have made some with Lauscha clear (which is softer than regular 104 clear) and used furnace glass frit, and it worked pretty well. I would think that encasing solids with transparents would work too.
But, there are many people who make very nice soft glass flower marbles (DanG on this board being the first that comes to mind) so it's obviously possible. Unfortunately I have never done it, so I can't be any help...
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2010-01-15, 11:48pm
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Borovangelist
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Join Date: Jan 26, 2007
Location: Auburn, MA
Posts: 3,002
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I find it helps me to think of them like those balloon-type water snake toys. Remember those? Basically it was a water filled balloon that could slide over itself ( http://www.windycitynovelties.com/68...?s_cid=nxt6863)
You apply the colored dots to the bottom, heat, and slide some of the glass over itself, pulling the bottom up inside.
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-Tom
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2010-01-16, 5:32am
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
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Very good visual Tom... sometimes different viscosity will change how it implodes, but heat, gravity and compressions is what really allows it to implode... you can implode the same glass... to demonstrate this, just fume a maria and put clear dots on it... same viscosity and it still works it's magic... once you figure out how things are moving and what you need to do to control it, it gets really fun... some of the control is just heat placement and subtle changes in angle...
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2010-01-16, 11:37am
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Astro Cat
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2008
Posts: 658
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Thanks everyone, you are awesome! I hadn't at all thought about the stiffness of the clear vs colored glasses. I had noticed the reverse being true between soft glass and hard glass though.
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2010-01-16, 12:14pm
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Bust It Big
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Join Date: Dec 16, 2008
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Very good visual Tom... sometimes different viscosity will change how it implodes, but heat, gravity and compressions is what really allows it to implode... you can implode the same glass... to demonstrate this, just fume a maria and put clear dots on it... same viscosity and it still works it's magic... once you figure out how things are moving and what you need to do to control it, it gets really fun... some of the control is just heat placement and subtle changes in angle...
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But its not the same glass, You have just introduced a layer or multiple layers of silver & or gold. Which obviously changes the chemistry a bit, making it stiffer (possibly) at the dots laid. It's is concievable that part of the physics is directly related to the chemistry of the mediums.
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Open your eyes and look within,
are you satisfied with the life your'e livin?
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2010-01-16, 2:28pm
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Pyromaniac
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Join Date: Jun 27, 2006
Location: Out there on the interwebs
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Tom hit the nail on the head I think... That's basically how it works...
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Chris Scala
Fortune Cookie say, "When things go wrong, don't go with them!"
Current Glass-Melting Apparatus:
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2010-01-16, 4:56pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 27, 2005
Location: Florida
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I have been playing with implosions this week. I keep getting a hole in the center and when I press it flattens the top. Any suggestions how to avoid the hole without cooling the maria off over and over by pressing a bunch? Does this make sense?
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2010-01-16, 5:03pm
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Never give up
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Join Date: Dec 22, 2007
Location: Nashville , IN 47448
Posts: 949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
I'm not sure. I have made some with Lauscha clear (which is softer than regular 104 clear) and used furnace glass frit, and it worked pretty well. I would think that encasing solids with transparents would work too.
But, there are many people who make very nice soft glass flower marbles (DanG on this board being the first that comes to mind) so it's obviously possible. Unfortunately I have never done it, so I can't be any help...
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I know DanG makes beautiful soft glass flower marbles I love them. Wish I was that good.
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Kim
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2010-01-16, 8:12pm
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Pyromaniac
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Join Date: Jun 27, 2006
Location: Out there on the interwebs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasi
I have been playing with implosions this week. I keep getting a hole in the center and when I press it flattens the top. Any suggestions how to avoid the hole without cooling the maria off over and over by pressing a bunch? Does this make sense?
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Work HOT, with a penetrating flame. Think GTT, not barracuda if that makes sense. If you're working as hot as you can, try heating the face of the maria. Check here for more. Brad is the master.
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Chris Scala
Fortune Cookie say, "When things go wrong, don't go with them!"
Current Glass-Melting Apparatus:
GTT Lynx powered by 2 5 LPM Oxycons and
a sexy Barracuda running pure tanked Oxy
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2010-01-16, 9:39pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 27, 2005
Location: Florida
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Perfect! Thank you. Great tutorial!
Now I just need more heat...
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2010-01-17, 2:51am
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product of the universe
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Join Date: Sep 06, 2005
Location: Rutvegas Vt
Posts: 598
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I found soft glass to be easier at first, and then what i learned from the soft helped out my boro. Now they're about the same.
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Chris
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And the men who hold high places,Must be the ones to start,To mold a new reality,Closer to the heart--Rush
Currently using fire.
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2010-01-17, 5:05am
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bzglass
But its not the same glass, You have just introduced a layer or multiple layers of silver & or gold. Which obviously changes the chemistry a bit, making it stiffer (possibly) at the dots laid. It's is concievable that part of the physics is directly related to the chemistry of the mediums.
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True... it's not exactly the same viscosity with that thin layer of silver or gold... but it's damn close. I was just pointing out that the viscosity difference may do something to change how fast the color moves up into the clear... but it by no means makes an implosion "possible". The implosion will happen with two glasses that are the exact same viscosity... it's all due to the repeated movement of the molten material. Allowing the maria with a design on it to fatten up stretches the dots or lines. Then the compression to bring the maria back into shape causes movement inside the glass to get it to "bloom". Repeating the steps, until you get the amount of "bloom" you want gives you an "implosion".
If you're smooshing your design, the whole maria is not hot enough. If the half of your maria closer to the rod is a lot stiffer than the back end (where the color is), when you flatten it, the top stiffer clear smooshes the color side. You want everything that isn't rod to be hot and flowing... the same amount of heat in all of it... this way the color can move freely and your implosion will have a lot more depth.
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"Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley
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2010-01-17, 3:30pm
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Torchaholic ;)
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Join Date: Nov 05, 2009
Location: Nomadic!
Posts: 244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyip
Work HOT, with a penetrating flame. Think GTT, not barracuda if that makes sense. If you're working as hot as you can, try heating the face of the maria. Check here for more. Brad is the master.
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Awesome tutorial! Thanks. I had a breakthrough last night w/ implosions and now with this new info, I should be good to go. Thanks!
ps-Attached a pic, of my implosion pendant, Im a newbie (bout a three weeks with my own torch up and running ) and this is one of my best pendants yet. I cant wait to expand on and play with this technique. The first was a caculated accident! lol
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2010-01-27, 6:09am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 12, 2009
Location: Surfside Beach, South Carolina
Posts: 98
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Want to see the master at implosions.
http://www.kobukiglass.com/mableinfo.html
Still in awe everytime I visit his site ... can't wait to one day just be able to watch much less take a class! Enjoy the eye candy!
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2010-01-27, 6:19am
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Jamaican Me Crazy
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Join Date: Oct 28, 2009
Location: burke county Georgia
Posts: 443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassshack
Want to see the master at implosions.
http://www.kobukiglass.com/mableinfo.html
Still in awe everytime I visit his site ... can't wait to one day just be able to watch much less take a class! Enjoy the eye candy!
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wow I have never seen anything like that, I am absolutley amazed. Thanks for the link
Pete
soft glass noob
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2010-01-27, 6:20pm
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Astro Cat
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2008
Posts: 658
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lovely!!
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2010-01-28, 5:23am
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old fart
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Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
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the actual physics is "emissivity". it is a parameter that measures the ability of a material to absorb or give off heat using radiation heat transfer. clear glass has a low emissivity and thus it is slow to heat up but also slow to cool off. but colored glass is quick to heat up and quick to cool down because it has a larger cooeficient of emissivity. so it is not "stiffer" as has been previously mentioned, it is actually cooler and thus partially frozen with a much different viscosity because it is cooler. so when you smash it, the cold blobs are forced down and the more runny hotter clear glass is forced out the side. then when you reheat, the surface tension of glass wants to draw the flat shape into a sphere so it draws the clear glass that was forced out, into the center and leaves the dark glass in place making it sink into the glass, or implode.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity
http://www.monarchserver.com/TableofEmissivity.pdf
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Mark Wilson
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2010-01-28, 2:16pm
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ManBearPig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserglass
the actual physics is "emissivity". it is a parameter that measures the ability of a material to absorb or give off heat using radiation heat transfer. clear glass has a low emissivity and thus it is slow to heat up but also slow to cool off. but colored glass is quick to heat up and quick to cool down because it has a larger cooeficient of emissivity. so it is not "stiffer" as has been previously mentioned, it is actually cooler and thus partially frozen with a much different viscosity because it is cooler. so when you smash it, the cold blobs are forced down and the more runny hotter clear glass is forced out the side. then when you reheat, the surface tension of glass wants to draw the flat shape into a sphere so it draws the clear glass that was forced out, into the center and leaves the dark glass in place making it sink into the glass, or implode.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity
http://www.monarchserver.com/TableofEmissivity.pdf
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No way I'll be able to explain that in a class, so I'm sticking with the colored glass being stiffer...
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2010-01-28, 4:16pm
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Marbles, dude, Marbles
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Join Date: Jan 06, 2007
Location: Coral Springs, Florida
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Somewhere there is an artform wherein one gives a simple plain language explanation that actually means something, when explaining a highly complex technical concept.
I do not know who practices that artform.
And I hate the people that don't really care what the answer is but ask the question anyways.
Pardon me - just venting...
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A marble a day keeps the 'willies' away.
Gerald Kappel
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2010-01-28, 6:36pm
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Astro Cat
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2008
Posts: 658
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Honestly, I was asking the question because I started to try to do implosions and thought it could help me do them better if I understood what was going on. I read the wonderful tutorial on 'Anakin's Glass Eye' and other tutorials and also watched Stephan Hagstrom's turtle implosion DVD. I have up to a few months ago worked only in soft glass and came up with a few somewhat imploded flowers and a few things where I seemingly only melted the dots into the glass! I've had a little more success in the past few weeks - I'll post my newbie implosions when I get a chance
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2010-01-29, 1:50pm
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Marbles, dude, Marbles
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Join Date: Jan 06, 2007
Location: Coral Springs, Florida
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Sorry. I wasn't referring to you asking the question, but to the general public that is always saying 'How do you do that?' Anyways, I'd like to see some of your new implosions. Doing flower implosions is exciting, especially if you manage to get the petals and leaves to come together nicely at the bottom, because then you don't have to melt in a ton of dots to decorate the back!
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A marble a day keeps the 'willies' away.
Gerald Kappel
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2010-01-29, 2:31pm
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Astro Cat
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2008
Posts: 658
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I will definitely post them. thanks everyone so much for your help. I can't help that a fraction of my brain is constantly thinking how can I do this better?? (glasswork)
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2010-01-30, 12:57am
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Astro Cat
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2008
Posts: 658
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Well, I wouldn't call these flowers - but these are the first implosions I did after my class.
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2010-01-30, 1:01am
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Astro Cat
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2008
Posts: 658
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I know I've got a lot of work ahead of me, not only on the implosion part but definitely learning good loops
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2010-01-30, 8:21am
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Marbles, dude, Marbles
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Join Date: Jan 06, 2007
Location: Coral Springs, Florida
Posts: 653
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Those sure look like flowers to me. Just because they didn't come out exactly like the pictures in your mind does not mean that they are bad flowers.
Last summer I went to a multi-acre tropical nursery here in Florida. Pretty much everything was in bloom, and I spent a long time examining many of the individual flowers. The variety of what nature produces is so incredibly immense. Basically if you can come up with what you think is an original design for a flower, nature's already got that flower somewhere on the planet. I saw so many flowers that had me thinking 'Gee, if I made an implosion that came out like that I would think I totally blew it.' Did you ever make a flower that you think looks more like a cartoon than a flower, and have someone say 'Hey, I saw a real flower that looked just like that the other day.' (this never happened to me, but it's a pleasantly interesting daydream). Anyways, whichever way the glass flows, just keep melting it!
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A marble a day keeps the 'willies' away.
Gerald Kappel
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2010-01-30, 10:36am
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Astro Cat
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2008
Posts: 658
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thanks for the kind words and encouragement! they are much appreciated!
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