Lampwork Etc.
 
Send a PM to CorriDawn!

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


Olympic Color Rods

Glacial Art Glass


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Safety

Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2014-08-18, 7:04am
sparklyofyourveryown's Avatar
sparklyofyourveryown sparklyofyourveryown is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 23, 2014
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 10
Unhappy Ventilation - pretty please, help!

OK, hereís the thing.
Iíve spent literally two years trying to figure out how to ventilate for enameling and, more recently, lampworking, and am so confused and completely paralyzed that I have done NOTHING.
This is a serious safety issue, and to be honest, I donít understand why, given the popularity of both mediums, there isnít an off-the-shelf solution.
Iím not MacGuyver. I am not handy. Show me ductwork and in-line fans and talk to me about CFMs and I start getting freaked out. I want to be safe, but AACK!
My craft room has two windows. Theyíre on the same wall. I have cats, so I donít want heavier gases and fumes slipping under the door to poison them. I canít cut holes in the walls (itís a townhome/condo thingie), and wouldnít know the first thing about setting up a fume hood. Iím only planning on working with MAPP gas and a Hot Head, at least for a good while.
I am a babe in the woods. I am clueless. I know I NEED ventilation, but havenít the least idea on how to start. And when I say that, understand that I have looked extensively online at lampworking forums (including this one) and discussions of barley boxes and fume hoods and big ventilation pipes that stick out of modified barn doors and what have you. All Iíve accomplished is confusing myself further. There are so many different people out there saying different things, and most of them seem to involve people with some kind of ventilation know-how; I have none of this. The class I took on torch-fired enameling was in a bead store with no ventilation, and the lampworking class was in a converted room in a house with lots of windows and an open door, but no real fume extraction or direct ventilation of the firing area to speak of, either. The enameling and ceramics I did as a kid at camp were in a converted shed, with no particular ventilation, either. Apparently, most of the instruction I have received over the course of my life has been done unsafely!
I just want something simple, thatís going to keep me safe, and wonít involve cutting holes in walls. Is that even possibleÖ?
Any help or advice youíre able to offer would be greatly appreciated. Iím desperate to start working with glass and enamels, but until Iíve found a safe way to do it, I donít see how.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2014-08-18, 8:32am
sparklyofyourveryown's Avatar
sparklyofyourveryown sparklyofyourveryown is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 23, 2014
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 10
Default

FWIW, so far, this one has made the most sense to me, though I would need to figure out a way to do it through a window instead of a hole in the wall, and it doesn't go into intake air to make up for the exhausted air.

http://www.helenvanekdesign.co.uk/page_2368334.html
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2014-08-18, 9:03am
Lizzydee's Avatar
Lizzydee Lizzydee is offline
grama punky - class junky
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,033
Default

Hi. I am sharing what I did in my condo the first year. I have sliding Windows. I mounted the highest powered bathroom fan I could find in the middle of a piece of plywood that fit the size of the opening created when I slid the window open. I torched on a table in front of the fan. I left the door of the room open and cracked a window open in another room for make up air. It worked great. Like you I struggle with technical. I had no lingering odors, the carbon monoxide detector in my torch room never bleeped and it seemed to work great. Someone with more know how please comment if this isn't safe. Happy torching sparkly.
__________________
Donna

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2014-08-18, 11:14am
sparklyofyourveryown's Avatar
sparklyofyourveryown sparklyofyourveryown is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 23, 2014
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 10
Default

Thanks, Donna!
The door/other room window option isn't going to work for me, because of the kitties.
But keep 'em coming! And it's good to know I'm not the only one who has trouble with the technical end of things.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2014-08-18, 12:49pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,962
Default

Well welders have been using these for years but it only includes a funnel and no hood so it is only good for relatively small torches and very localised ventilation.
www.ventafume.com

I used one in my garage for a while and it worked well. Based on your description, in my opinion, you should have a full overhead hood. There is no off the shelf system that I know of. I suggest you do the research on fans, sheet metal hood design, and ducting, as well as the fundamentals of ventilation and find a local contractor to build it. Working with enamels should not be taken lightly. Is there no one else that could help?

Last edited by LarryC; 2014-08-18 at 12:56pm.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2014-08-20, 6:57am
sparklyofyourveryown's Avatar
sparklyofyourveryown sparklyofyourveryown is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 23, 2014
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 10
Default

Larry,
For right now, I'm definitely only working with a very small (MAPP) torch with Hot Head, as well as the world's tiniest, cruddiest kiln (someday, I will get a real kiln. Someday. Oh, yes. But that day is not today.)
As far as enamels go, for right now, I'm only planning on using the immersion method (a.k.a. Painting With Fire), which (I'm told) is less of a big deal on the ventilation front than sifting. Though it's crazy to think that I did LOADS of sifting as a child, and no one thought of this ventilation stuff! I do have a respirator mask, for use while sifting.
That Place-A-Vent looks pretty amazing for my needs, but there aren't any pictures of how it actually exhausts; would I be able to put it in a standard push-up window?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2014-08-20, 7:37am
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
da General
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,997
Default

How far apart are the two windows? You need 10 linear feet between the exhausted fume and the fresh intake air as not to draw the bad air back inside.
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2014-08-20, 7:46am
sparklyofyourveryown's Avatar
sparklyofyourveryown sparklyofyourveryown is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 23, 2014
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 10
Default

I am honestly not sure. Could be 10. Probably not, though. I'll check when I get home.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2014-08-20, 8:38am
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
da General
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,997
Default

Please measure it when you get home. If it's less than 10 feet, you will have to continue your ducting on the outside away from the intake air window until the distance is at least 10 feet.
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 2014-08-20, 8:46am
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
da General
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,997
Default

For a hood, I have seen systems using aluminum tubs with a hole cut out for ducting. I recommend getting a contractor/handyman to do it for you.

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...A&ved=0CCEQuSQ
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 2014-08-20, 9:11am
sparklyofyourveryown's Avatar
sparklyofyourveryown sparklyofyourveryown is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 23, 2014
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
Please measure it when you get home. If it's less than 10 feet, you will have to continue your ducting on the outside away from the intake air window until the distance is at least 10 feet.
Can't happen - like I said, it's a townhome in a complex. If I can't put it through the window, I'm S.O.L.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2014-08-20, 2:45pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,962
Default

it comes with ducting to the funnel. Home depot has flex that fits for the exhaust. For the wall mounted one it comes with a steel mount. Call them with questions. They are very helpful and thorough.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2014-08-20, 8:56pm
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
da General
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,997
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklyofyourveryown View Post
Can't happen - like I said, it's a townhome in a complex. If I can't put it through the window, I'm S.O.L.
You can still go through the window except that you will need to continue on with your ducting on the outside turning it away from the other window until the opening is 10 feet from the window for intake take. Does that make sense?

You will need to rig something up ... A piece of plywood with a hole cut to accommodat the ducting that will be hooked up with your hood/funnel inside and the other end extending outside.
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2014-08-21, 6:21am
sparklyofyourveryown's Avatar
sparklyofyourveryown sparklyofyourveryown is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 23, 2014
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 10
Default

Hayley - I get what you're saying; I just think the HOA would have something to say about a big snake of ducting hanging down from the window!
I didn't have the time to measure last night; hopefully tonight. I'm pretty sure it isn't 10 feet, though.

Larry - I'll contact them to see what they have to say for my needs. I also found a company called Sentry Air which markets similar systems and seems to have marketed to the metalworking community.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2014-08-21, 10:21am
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
da General
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,997
Default

I see what you mean now. Unfortunately it's pointless setting up any ventilation system if you are just going to bring the exhausted fume right back into your space. So sorry...
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 2014-08-21, 10:51am
sparklyofyourveryown's Avatar
sparklyofyourveryown sparklyofyourveryown is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 23, 2014
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 10
Default

I'm still a little unclear as to why these fume catching systems can't handle this? I get needing to bring air back into the room, but I'm not sure why these fume eaters can't handle the fumes from torching. Metalsmiths seem to use them, and I'd think they'd have more to worry about from gold and silver fumes than a glass artist...?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 2014-08-21, 10:57am
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
da General
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,997
Default

I am not sure what fume catching systems you are referring to? As in the one you posted the link to in post #2?
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 2014-08-21, 11:00am
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
da General
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,997
Default

My point was it didn't matter which system you were to put together, unless you had your exhaust being at a minimum 10 feet from your intake fresh air (that can just be an open window), no system would work.
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 2014-08-22, 7:11am
Dale M.'s Avatar
Dale M. Dale M. is offline
Gentleman of Leisure
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
Default

Welding fume catching system are just smoke removal system, they do not effectively gather or removing the carbon monoxide and NOX fumes and heavy metal molecules released for hot glass, generated by large flame consuming oxygen and fuel.... Simply they (most welding fume hoods) do not move enough air and try to capture smoke particles with a filter.... What we are trying to get rid of are microscopic particles small enough to go through a smoke filter...

Subject is covered almost to ad nauseam here...

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...5c5ff3188a042e

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...5c5ff3188a042e

Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 2014-08-22, 8:17pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
Welding fume catching system are just smoke removal system, they do not effectively gather or removing the carbon monoxide and NOX fumes and heavy metal molecules released for hot glass, generated by large flame consuming oxygen and fuel.... Simply they (most welding fume hoods) do not move enough air and try to capture smoke particles with a filter.... What we are trying to get rid of are microscopic particles small enough to go through a smoke filter...

Subject is covered almost to ad nauseam here...

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...5c5ff3188a042e

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...5c5ff3188a042e

Dale

We have argued this in the past and I seem to recall Dale that you admitted to having zero personal experience with funnel systems. For the record, Mine worked very well and moved a huge amount of air. The downside as I stated is that you must work directly in front of or directly below the funnel for them to be effective but thats no surprise. By the way, mine was not a filtration system but was designed to exhaust through ducting. Again, for your application I think you need an overhead hood.

Last edited by LarryC; 2014-08-22 at 8:24pm.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 2014-08-23, 3:17am
QuiteCuntrary's Avatar
QuiteCuntrary QuiteCuntrary is offline
Feminist Killjoy
 
Join Date: Jul 03, 2009
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 516
Default

I feel like I'm in the same boat. I've read tons and tons on the subject over the years, but nothing ever stuck in my brain. Only very recently has any of it sunk in. After a few final questions to Dale, I'm certain I'm finally on the right track. The main things I've gleaned as utterly important are:

Absolutely NO flexible ducting, and that no matter the size of your enclosure, it's the OPENING alone that determines how many cfms you need. I was confused about that for a long time. You need at least 100 cfm for every square foot of OPENING. So my opening will be 2.5 ft wide x 2ft tall, for a total of 5 square feet. Therefore 500 cfm minimum. Dale suggested 626 cfm would be even better. So I went with 670 cfm, 8 inch inline fan.

I've finally begun constructing this baby. I'm using a nice, deep armoire as my fume hood. That way, I can use the side drawers and cubbies for storage, and close it up all nice and neat when I'm done for the day. I'll be adding a face shield and I'll be caulking around all of the seams inside, and lining with some aluminum sheet. The top writing surface of the armoire will be where I mount the torch. I'm going to mount a reducer (funnel) into the center back of the armoire and run either smooth ducting or just the fan itself through a board that will mount into my window and be removable. A very short line, as the armoire will sit up against the window. I think I'll be putting wheels on it, so I can roll it out to remove the window board. The only thing I'm really still stuck on is the method of sealing around the board, so that fumes cannot re-enter, but at the same time, will be able to be pulled away with ease. I'm thinking weather stripping, but there are many different kinds. Hopefully I'll get that worked out soon.

The fan I got: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-8-670-CF...item3f18239edd
__________________
Annie
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 2014-08-23, 8:47am
Dale M.'s Avatar
Dale M. Dale M. is offline
Gentleman of Leisure
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
Default

Larry, my statement stems from I have never seen a duct system setup, and that there seems to be no standard on duct size and how many CFM fan should be.... I do remember stating that a funnel of some sort be used on end of duct, the duct material not be corrugated (for same static pressure reason as for duct on hood setup), and that a minimum of 6 inch duct be used and use a minimum of 500CFM fan.... However NOBODY ever came back to me with actual number and efficiency report....

Only feed back I got was "whoosit" is using a "similar system" and it seems to work.....Including you.... Don't mean to start a fight this late in game, a long time ago I tried to establish parameters that were practical and efficient, I asked for feed back, but no body contributed their expediences....

I tried to work something out for safe set of parameters, but the "community" did not seem to want to support the efforts.... Oh well....

This is why I have backed way, way, way, out of the glass arena as people still seem to what to go their own way....

Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 2014-08-23, 2:10pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
Larry, my statement stems from I have never seen a duct system setup, and that there seems to be no standard on duct size and how many CFM fan should be.... I do remember stating that a funnel of some sort be used on end of duct, the duct material not be corrugated (for same static pressure reason as for duct on hood setup), and that a minimum of 6 inch duct be used and use a minimum of 500CFM fan.... However NOBODY ever came back to me with actual number and efficiency report....

Only feed back I got was "whoosit" is using a "similar system" and it seems to work.....Including you.... Don't mean to start a fight this late in game, a long time ago I tried to establish parameters that were practical and efficient, I asked for feed back, but no body contributed their expediences....

I tried to work something out for safe set of parameters, but the "community" did not seem to want to support the efforts.... Oh well....

This is why I have backed way, way, way, out of the glass arena as people still seem to what to go their own way....

Dale
Dale, I am not looking to start an argument either but I also realize that there is a theoretically perfect system where all of the rules of thumb are met, and a practical system which will vary based on the situation. In my new shop I have a full overhead hood system with 12 inch ducting etc. but this is not always practical. So many funnel systems are in use and I would hope that good judgment is used in building them and that they get tested well. Mine worked very well. How did I choose the components? I SWAG'ed it, tested, and adjusted until I was happy with the performance. I dont think most folks here have the judgment to do this and that is why I often suggest that a local HVAC person be consulted.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 2014-08-24, 7:15am
rainygrrl's Avatar
rainygrrl rainygrrl is offline
dances with ideas...
 
Join Date: Sep 15, 2005
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 2,205
Default

For the make-up air, perhaps you could reconsider the other room/window option. My cats have always been able to get in to visit me while I'm torching. I kept a close eye on them and sprayed water at them when they got too close. Also set up a soft bed in a safe place so they could watch (or nap). This worked fine for me. I always kept the water sprayer right by the torch even after they learned the rules. HTH.
__________________
Roberta
"Excels at making things more complex than they need to be"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hot head, mapp, ventilation


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:56am.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 54.145.103.69