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  #271  
Old 2008-06-11, 6:15pm
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I do want to say that I have not contacted anyone about this unit, so I don't want anyone thinking that I am not getting any kind of satisfaction. It's just really started doing this for the past couple of months.
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  #272  
Old 2008-06-11, 6:34pm
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[quote=kbinkster;1903449]Thank you Pam and Andrea.


Kevin, I hope to have some results on some new EX-15 units very soon. I wasn't snubbing them. I just did not have any here with me to test. And, like Andrea mentioned, what results I have posted thusfar are just the start.

Thanks Kimberly,
I meant no offence towards you. Was composing asap during work, very interested in your project and check it often during the day.

Kevin
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  #273  
Old 2008-06-11, 8:26pm
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No offense taken, Kevin.

I have test results in my hands for two EO EX-15s and will be posting them soon with the results from the UO M-15 and DeVo MC84 that I tested.
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  #274  
Old 2008-06-11, 8:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameDancer View Post
Hi Kimberly. The one that I had first by about 2 months, is the one that I am having problems with. It doesn't seem to have as much oomph, as the other one and for some reason, the reduction is, like I said...sooty. The flame is smaller also and has more breathing issues. When I do boro, I don't notice any breathing issues. The "good" concentrator seems to burn hotter.

I use them both indoors, in a controlled heating/air environment. I'm in the south and it's pretty humid here but that shouldn't effect it, with the units being in my house. The first one, I have had for a little over a year and the 2nd one about a year. I usually make beads about 4 times a week...it's my business, not a hobby. They run for about 4-6 hours, sometimes longer, per session. I don't do boro as much so they don't usually run at the same time. I get NO color with boro...drives me nuts. I got more color with my Airsep and my Cairbreeze. It's probably just me though.
Thank you, Krissa, for the details. It sounds possible that both units might be giving you poor purity if you cannot get color from your boro using two 8 LPM machines - the one associated with the soot, most probably. If you are able to get color from your other concentrators, then it probably isn't you or how you're working. If you turn both machines way down to lower settings and just run your centerfire, can you get better results? Also, give your torch a good cleaning and see if that helps.

Could the reason you don't notice breathing while doing boro be because you are running both machines together? The cycles would be offset, so they aren't breathing at the same time and there is no gap in receiving oxygen.

If it turns out that one or both machines have problems, then you ought to call Jack. I'm sure he'll help you. You're well within the warranty period.
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  #275  
Old 2008-06-12, 4:53am
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Kimberly, I will give that a try and see what kind of results I get. I will definitely give Jack a ring and see if he can help me. I'll keep you posted
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  #276  
Old 2008-06-12, 11:05am
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Concentrators and generators are rated by how many LPM (or CFH) they put out before the output drops below 90% purity. At their highest rated LPM, they should put out a minimum of 90% purity. So, a machine that is rated at 5 LPM should put out 90% or better at an actual flow rate of 5 LPM, an 8 LPM machine should put out 90% or better at an actual flow rate of 8 LPM, a 10 LPM machine should put out 90% or better at an actual flow rate of 10 LPM, and so on.

I tested the machines of two members of my local ISGB chapter, last week. Then, I sent my analyzer to a glassworker in another state to test two units that he has recently acquired. The results of the four units tested are posted below. Basically, all four units performed below expectations. The first one, however, was found to have a leak, hence the poor purity and low pressure. The M-15 and the DeVilbiss put out lower flows than what they are rated for because they are being run at a high elevation (expected 80% of flow here). The two EX-15s put out flow rates lower than indicated by the volumetric ball flow meter on the concentrators, even though they were very close to sea level.


Model: DeVilbiss MC84
Specs: 5 LPM, 8.5 psi, 90%
Tested: 06/06/08

Comments: reconditioned and purchased from me 10/08, used on average 20 hrs/wk, indoor basement studio, elevation 6000-6500 ft., analyzer set to elevation prior to testing, normally dry climate tested on overcast day, used to make small boro pendants on Bobcat, first concentrator for owner – has not used tanked oxygen with her torch

Flow Rate set on machine: 5 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 4.1 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 79.9 – 82.2%
Pressure: 7.7 psi

Noticed filter was very dirty (never cleaned). Turned off machine and owner vacuumed filter. Turned on machine and allowed it to run 10 minutes. Re-tested.

Flow Rate set on machine: 5 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 4.2 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 80.1 - 82.3%
Pressure: 7.7 psi

Notes: The owner informed me that unit had arrived in badly beaten box, but unit appeared undamaged when unpacked. Owner also mentioned below normal operation indicator light illuminated (I had not noticed), no audible alarm sounded. I spoke with supplier and it was determined that there is a leak in the system. Unit will be replaced. I was embarrassed that the machine was not functioning properly, but was glad that I tested it. Otherwise, the owner would have just kept on going with a machine that was not putting out what it should.



Model: Unlimited Oxygen M-15
Specs: 8LPM, 15psi, 90% +/-3% “due to altitude variance”
Tested: 06/07/08

Comments: a little over a year old, used on average 42 hrs/wk, garage studio, 6000-6500 ft. elevation, set to elevation prior to testing, normally dry climate tested on dry cool day, used to make soft glass and boro beads and pendants on Bobcat, first concentrator for owner - has used tanked oxygen, has used friend’s M-15/Lynx set-up and believes her machine breathes more than her friend’s, I plan to test her friend’s M-15, as well

Flow Rate set on machine: 8 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 5.6 – 6.0 LPM (little lower than expected for this altitude)
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 82.6 – 87.2%
Pressure: 13.6 – 14.5

Owner said she tried the machine at the 10 LPM setting to get more heat out of it, but turned it down to 8 LPM and got better results in her glass at the lower setting. Owner and I wanted to see what she was getting at the 10 LPM setting, so we retested at that setting.

Flow Rate set on machine: 10 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 6.9 – 7.6 LPM (little lower than expected for this altitude)
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 65.7 – 73.0%
Pressure: 13.8 – 14.6 psi

Notes: Even at 10 LPM on the machine, it was not quite putting out the rated 8 LPM. Filter had been vacuumed, but was still a little bit dirty. I told the owner that I could return and retest after she washed and dried the filter, although I did not expect any dramatic improvement.

I then sent my analyzer out to someone who had two machines that he wanted to test. I sent him instructions on how to use the analyzer and what to test for. He called me after testing each unit. Each unit was run for a minimum of 10 minutes prior to testing in order to build up purity and pressure.

Model: Extreme Oxygen EX-15, machine A (one of two tested by owner)
Specs: could not find them listed on the EO website, but the EX-15 is marketed as being identical to the M-15 that puts out 8 LPM, 15 psi, 90%
Tested: 06/11/08 by owner following my test procedures

Comments: Owner is relatively new to lampworking, but also runs a Lynx on tanked oxygen at teacher’s studio. He bought a machine to run his Lynx and was unhappy with performance. The seller was very helpful and sent owner additional unit (also tested) to compare to first unit and to see if adding second unit increased performance. The units tested are brand new machines, indoor/basement studio, 0-500 ft elevation – flow should be the same as at sea level, analyzer set to elevation prior to testing, used on Lynx torch for boro. Owner ran tests at several settings.

Flow Rate set on machine: 8 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 6.4 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 86.2 – 88%
Pressure: 13.9 – 14.0 psi

Flow Rate set on machine: 7 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 5.5 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 93.2 – 93.4%
Pressure: 13.9 – 14.0 psi

Flow Rate set on machine: 6 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 4.5 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 93.3 – 93.5%
Pressure: 13.9 – 14.0 psi

The owner determined that the 7 LPM setting (5.5 LPM actual output) was the sweetspot for this machine – the highest flow at highest purity. I asked owner to test machine at actual 8 LPM output.

Flow Rate set on machine: unreadable LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 8 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 76.0 – 81.1%
Pressure: 13.9 – 14.0 psi

Onto the second unit:

Model: Extreme Oxygen EX-15, machine B (one of two tested by owner)
Specs: could not find them listed on the EO website, but the EX-15 is marketed as being identical to the M-15 that puts out 8 LPM, 15 psi, 90%
Tested: 06/11/08 by owner following my test procedures

Comments: Owner is relatively new to lampworking, but also runs a Lynx on tanked oxygen at teacher’s studio. He bought a machine to run his Lynx and was unhappy with performance. The seller was very helpful and sent owner additional unit (also tested) to compare to first unit and to see if adding second unit increased performance. The units tested are brand new machines, indoor/basement studio, 0-500 ft elevation – flow should be the same as at sea level, analyzer set to elevation prior to testing, used on Lynx torch for boro. Owner ran tests at several settings.

Flow Rate set on machine: 8 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 6.4 – 6.7 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 89.9 – 90.8%
Pressure: 15.0 – 15.1 psi

Flow Rate set on machine: 7 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 5.6 – 5.7 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 93.0 – 93.2%
Pressure: 15.0 -15.1 psi

Flow Rate set on machine: 6 LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 4.6 – 4.7 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 93.5 – 93.6%
Pressure: 15.0 – 15.1 psi

I asked owner to test machine at actual 8 LPM output.

Flow Rate set on machine: unreadable LPM
Flow Rate read by analyzer: 8 LPM
Oxygen Concentration (Purity): 77.1 – 82.3%
Pressure: 15.0 – 15.1 psi

Notes: At an actual output of 8 LPM, neither EX-15 put out acceptable purity (concentrations in the 70s-80s). It should be noted that Extreme Oxygen is a company started by Paul Ridgeway, Jack Ridgeway’s brother. Jack and Paul started Unlimited Oxygen. Paul split off and started his own company called Extreme Oxygen. Their EX-15 unit is marketed as being identical to the Unlimited Oxygen’s M-15.
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  #277  
Old 2008-06-12, 12:00pm
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Can you please set a regalia to an actual 10 LPM at your altitude and check it? Since you're doing that with other machines, it's only fair to test all machines the same way. Otherwise, the data collected is skewed. I hope this testing will move ahead in a fair manor. If you turn up one machine to obtain a true LPM reading on the analyzer, you should do the same for all machines tested. I'm in Phoenix until Monday... will check in from time to time...

oh and by the way, the customer service people have witnessed from me, has nothing to do with it being out in public. I handle all of my customers with the same care. As for you implying otherwise... how professional of you. I sure am glad you've got no hidden agenda. Would hate to see a thread where you did.
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  #278  
Old 2008-06-12, 1:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley View Post
Can you please set a regalia to an actual 10 LPM at your altitude and check it? Since you're doing that with other machines, it's only fair to test all machines the same way. Otherwise, the data collected is skewed. I hope this testing will move ahead in a fair manor. If you turn up one machine to obtain a true LPM reading on the analyzer, you should do the same for all machines tested. I'm in Phoenix until Monday... will check in from time to time...

oh and by the way, the customer service people have witnessed from me, has nothing to do with it being out in public. I handle all of my customers with the same care. As for you implying otherwise... how professional of you. I sure am glad you've got no hidden agenda. Would hate to see a thread where you did.
There's a difference in turning up a machine at sea level to put out its actual rated output and trying to turn up a machine at my altitude to put out its actual rated output. At my altitude, there is not a lower percentage of oxygen, but 20% less air altogether. So, to try to get that 20% more air through the machine to get sea-level flows, the compressor would have to work very hard. The owner of the M-15 and I tested the M-15 at 10 LPM out of curiosity. Afterall, the scale on the machine's flow meter goes up to 10 LPM. But, regardless of what it did at that setting, when the M-15 was set to 8 LPM, it only put out 5.6 - 6.0 LPM (at this altitude, 6.4 would be expected) with a purity of 82.6 - 87.2%. By the way, altitude should not have a big impact on purity. Although there is 20% less air, the concentration of oxygen here is the same as it is at sea level - about 20.9%. This is why we get lower flows, but not lower purity. I find it very odd that UO puts that "+/-3% due to altitude variance" disclaimer on their website.

The ball flow meters on concentrators are not very accurate. That may account for some of the discrepancy between the EX-15s and the analyzer reading. I think that it is more likely due to the fact that the base units are 5 LPM units and a sticker has been placed over the flow meter. When testing a machine at or very near sea level, setting a machine so that it is putting out its actual rated flow does not overflow the machine or cause the compressor to work too hard. Since flow meters on concentrators (particularly modified flow meters) vary from machine to machine, setting those machines to run at a true 8 LPM is fair.

As for the rest of your post, well, my comment regarding complaints posted in public getting faster attention than had they not been posted was a commentary on what I have read first-hand on this thread. Patti Cahill contacted Jack about her M-15 and heard nothing from him for three weeks. She posted on here and he offered to replace the unit right away. Trey posted on here about a bad unit and got a replacement right away, too. And?

As for hidden agendas, I have none. I am being very up-front with all of my testing. Re-read my last post and look at the first unit tested. It is a DeVilbiss machine that I sold. If I had some hidden agenda, I would not have posted about it.

Have you been as up-front in your claims? Earlier in this thread, you bragged that no one you sold a concentrator to had problems other than shipping problems, yet one of your customers came on and posted that her M-15 was putting out bad purity and Jack was replacing it.

Well, it really doesn't matter what you say or what you infer. I am testing machines. I am using the scientific method and gathering data. Numbers don't lie and they are not subjective. I am still not finished with my testing. I am sure that if all of those units you have sold (must be hundreds of them)are putting out what you say they are, then I am bound to come across some of them for testing and will get to post some good numbers.
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  #279  
Old 2008-06-12, 4:16pm
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At the time of my post, I had not received any complaints that were not shipping related. Helen's problem has not been identified. I tried to trouble shoot it over the phone, but was not able to get very far with her that day. I told her Jack would have to handle that and he was on it. I have not heard a report on what the issue ended up being. Something may have come loose. Before you go posting a little blushing smiley maybe you should make sure I have something to be embarrassed about... all of my customers are handled just as considerately behind the scenes or not.
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  #280  
Old 2008-06-12, 4:21pm
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I'm glad you found out a devilbiss you sold had issues and reported it. I hope that's not a common problem with those units.
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  #281  
Old 2008-06-12, 6:38pm
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I'm glad you found out a devilbiss you sold had issues and reported it. I hope that's not a common problem with those units.
I don't think that it is a common problem, but that's the kind of thing the testing should show.

I'm sorry if it's looking a little one-sided for the UO and EO units, right now. I'm sure that over time, we'll get more results in and there will be favorable ones for those units. I'll be sure to post them. In fact, I fully expected the friend of the owner of the M-15 that I tested who also has an M-15 to have really good test results with her machine. Unfortunately, she had a family thing come up the day we planned for me to test her unit and she cancelled out. I will try to reschedule something with her when I get my analyzer back.
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  #282  
Old 2008-06-12, 6:44pm
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I have to ask, Kimberly is the tool you are using hard to find? I am wondering why more distrubutors don't take the time to research this themselves with their own units and others?
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  #283  
Old 2008-06-12, 9:49pm
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I have to ask, Kimberly is the tool you are using hard to find? I am wondering why more distrubutors don't take the time to research this themselves with their own units and others?
The tool I have is not hard to find. Mine is nice because it includes an ultrasonic oxygen analyzer (no fuel cell needed) as well as a pressure gauge and a mass flow meter (more accurate than the ball flow meters). All of those elements are available seperately, though, and plain oxygen analyzers cost less than $300.
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  #284  
Old 2008-06-12, 10:10pm
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How'd my problem get brought up?? I'm happy now. The new replacement M15 Jack sent me (as I said in my post) works great.
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  #285  
Old 2008-06-12, 10:41pm
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How'd my problem get brought up?? I'm happy now. The new replacement M15 Jack sent me (as I said in my post) works great.
Hi Hels

Your problem was only brought up because Brent said that
Quote:
the only problems they have right now is too many orders and occasionally a damaged unit from shipping
and your problem, from what you stated and from what I understood, was a purity issue, not a unit damaged in shipping. I guess when I think of "unit damaged in shipping," I think of cracked cases and broken casters.

At any rate, I am glad that you have a working unit now and that you are up and running with it.
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Old 2008-06-12, 10:54pm
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Hi Kimberly.
Well... it might have been from User damage too... remember, I ran it in 100% humidity on a porch and kept turning it off and on when I went to the bathroom. It's very possible I did it myself, and I honestly don't know if I did, so I won't point fingers at the unit, since it could have been unintentional user abuse.

Are you going to post the figures for what oxy gens runs which torches? THAT is info we'd all like.

Ie:
GTT Bobcat : M15 95% @ 6 lpm 90+ purity (this should be accurate)
Ex 15 95%
Regalia 100%

GTT Lynx: M15 ??
OSGI ??
Regalia ??

Etc... We have threads every day asking what oxygens will run what torches.. the above would be truly useful info.
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  #287  
Old 2008-06-13, 7:33am
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Hi Hels

Your problem was only brought up because Brent said that and your problem, from what you stated and from what I understood, was a purity issue, not a unit damaged in shipping. I guess when I think of "unit damaged in shipping," I think of cracked cases and broken casters.

At any rate, I am glad that you have a working unit now and that you are up and running with it.
A case is not the only thing that can be damaged when a unit is damaged in shipping. The case is certainly one of many things on a machine that can be damaged if it's mishandled by the carrier, but not the only thing. Some times the damage is cosmetic and some times it is internal and won't run right. There's no way of limiting the damage to the outer shell. I wish there were. Heck, I wish we could get Fedex, UPS or DHL to just handle them properly to begin with.

I have talked to Jack about a better shipping method... we'll get them more drop-able.
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  #288  
Old 2008-06-13, 8:57am
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Quote:
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Are you going to post the figures for what oxy gens runs which torches? THAT is info we'd all like.
One thing at a time.
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Old 2008-06-13, 8:41pm
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I just had a very educational discussion with someone and boy am I glad that I did.

I was wrong when I stated high altitude did not have a big impact on purity. It has more of an impact than I thought and altitude affects pressure, as well. The person I talked to provided me some actual data that demonstrated what he told me (see, numbers really are important).

Anyway, at my altitude, there is not as much atmospheric pressure pushing down on things as there is at sea level. Gas is more diffuse. The molecules in the air are further apart than they are at sea level. So, when the air is pulled into the compressor and then pushed into the seive, there are not as many molecules of oxygen in there as there would be at sea level. As a result, the purity is lower. It is analogous to what you would get at sea level if you were running with a dirty filter or with a leak on the air side of the system.

*PSA*
Speaking of dirty filters... Altitude can be harsh on concentrators. So, it becomes very important to be on top of filter changes, even moreso than it would be at sea level.
*/PSA*

Anyway, I then asked about the flow and why the flow meter on the analyzer would read the lower flow rate (to be expected due to the altitude), but then the meter on my concentrator would read something else. Well, it turns out that this is because my analyzer uses a mass flow meter.

If I were to take a balloon that could hold 10 liters of oxygen and hook it up to my Regalia set at 10 LPM, after one minute, it would be filled with 10 liters of oxygen. Because there is less atmospheric pressure acting on that balloon, the molecules of oxygen are further apart up here than they would be at sea level. If I were to take that balloon and go down to sea level, where the atmospheric pressure is greater than where I filled it, the balloon would shrink down and I would end up with only 8 liters of oxygen inside. This is why the mass flow meter on my analyzer only reads 8 LPM up here.

Now, at sea level, or very close to it, the meter would have read 10 LPM for a 10 LPM output. If it is reading 6 LPM at sea level, then that is because the machine is only putting out 6 liters per minute.
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Old 2008-07-09, 3:26pm
dracoverdi dracoverdi is offline
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It seems to me that altitude has a more complex effect on the numbers than I expected. I would not know how to compare sea level measurements with measurements taken at 6000-7000 feet.

What effect do other variables like humidity have on results? I like the way you've been noting usage, altitude, and settings because it may be possible to spot trends caused by other variables.

Previous threads mentioned shows, or conventions where these machines were demonstrated in all in one place, that would be the opportunity to test several machines under similar conditions (eliminating as many variables as possible). It would also be good to have a test procedure so you do the same steps to test each machine (it sounds, from your most recent results, as though you already have something like this).

I'm also really interested in getting standardized the torch consumption numbers. This may be a difficult task because it is dependent on flame size and composition.

This probably sounds like a critical post but my wife and I are looking for oxygen concentrators right now, so we can really understand the need for this information. Also, peer review is an important part of the scientific method.
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Old 2008-07-09, 4:29pm
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kbinkster kbinkster is offline
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Getting the torch consumption numbers has been a long-time on-going project for me. I like using the largest usable neutral flame of a torch to measure the maximum consumption rate. I feel that pass-through rates are almost useless because some torches "top out" much sooner than others. I keep track of pass-through rates when that is all that is available because they at least show that the torch cannot use more oxygen than what is posted.

Heat and humidity affect purity. When air is hot, the molecules of oxygen in the feed air itself are further apart than when the air is cooler. Feed air is very important. The cooler and drier it is, the better. That is why it is always better to run a concentrator in an indoor, air conditioned room than out in a shed. Also, water hurts the seive material. So, you don't want to be exposing the machine to the elements or in very, very humid conditions if at all possible.

I have been to shows and have run concentrators on the torches at the GTT table. I have also seen a manufacturer at a show with his oxygen analyzer showing what great purity his machine had. I don't think that that is necessarily very helpful Any manufacturer can cherry-pick or alter a unit for something very short-term like a show. I think the production models out in the field give a more accurate picture of what can be expected.
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